Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

islam as a system of beliefs isn't benign.

Islam as a system of beliefs is benign - it is when individuals distort it to provide cover for violence and morally reprehensible acts that problems develop, but the issue there are those individuals, who believe political and social goals can be accomplished through such means.

Many of the early Palestinian 'terrorist organizations were not religious after all, neither were the LTTE.

Religion is a tool - that Islam is used more often than others these days as that tool has more to do with the social and political instability in large parts of the Muslim world, and the interplay of those dynamics with Western policies.

 

[Awesome]

Am i right that you have no sense of shame that militants waved the banner of Islam to justify murdering 3,000 people?

No shame at all. I can't control them from waving the banner of Islam or holding your... or lets say my mother's poster up.

No control.

Why feel ashamed, angry is more like it. I was a victim in that sense.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The headlines:-

Cordoba Centre allowed :- Look we told you we have the greatest religion, nothing can stop us !

Cordoba Centre not-allowed :- Islamophobic discriminatory amriki !

Head I Win, Tails You Lose

Put another way:

Cordoba Center proposed:- You Muslims are insensitive, tasteless, infidel conquering opportunists and bear responsibility for 9/11 attacks.

Cordoba Center proposal taken back:- Muslims implicitly accepted that they bear responsibility for terrorism anywhere.

Head I Win, Tails You Lose

=====

But back to your post, why should opposition to bigotry and prejudice (opposition to the mosque) be taken as triumphalism and chest thumping that 'Islam is the greatest'? Does that not apply to the construction of the house of worship of any religion?

 

[whocares]

Islam as a system of beliefs is benign - it is when individuals distort it to provide cover for violence and morally reprehensible acts that problems develop, but the issue there are those individuals, who believe political and social goals can be accomplished through such means.

Many of the early Palestinian 'terrorist organizations were not religious after all, neither were the LTTE.

Religion is a tool - that Islam is used more often than others these days as that tool has more to do with the social and political instability in large parts of the Muslim world, and the interplay of those dynamics with Western policies.

you're deliberately ignoring features of the religion that gives loonies and the psychologically ill the nudge to go out and kill, and even more amazingly kill themselves in the process.

yes islam is a tool and it seems to be an easy one to use as an instrument for violence.

other religions aren't producing unrepentantly violent people like faizal shahzad or muhammad bouyeri.

 

[Awesome]

But back to your post, why should opposition to bigotry and prejudice (opposition to the mosque) be taken as triumphalism and chest thumping that 'Islam is the greatest'? Does that not apply to the construction of the house of worship of any religion?

Actually the construction of this mosque would really show why the US is the leading country of the world today - it's tolerance and freedom (as shaken they were during and after the Patriot Act era).

Secularism, tolerance and freedom are great things and very very difficult to achieve. Americans should not succeed where Osama bin Laden failed in effing it all up.

 

[sparklingway]

Put another way:

Cordoba Center proposed:- You Muslims are insensitive, tasteless, infidel conquering opportunists and bear responsibility for 9/11 attacks.

Cordoba Center proposal taken back:- Muslims implicitly accepted that they bear responsibility for terrorism anywhere.

Head I Win, Tails You Lose

=====

But back to your post, why should opposition to bigotry and prejudice (opposition to the mosque) be taken as triumphalism and chest thumping that 'Islam is the greatest'? Does that not apply to the construction of the house of worship of any religion?

My point was sarcastic. Anyways, the government functionaries and public officials never voted against it. Means that they overwhelmingly supported the initiative which requires nothing but a basic approval.

Let us see some synagogues go up in Dubai or new churches in Pakistan (people saying they do not oppose opening of new churches does not mean that it would not happen).

I'm happy that they upheld freedom of religion and secularism and did not discriminate against one specific community.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My point was sarcastic. Anyways, the government functionaries and public officials never voted against it. Means that they overwhelmingly supported the initiative which requires nothing but a basic approval.

Let us see some synagogues go up in Dubai or new churches in Pakistan (people saying they do not oppose opening of new churches does not mean that it would not happen).

I'm happy that they upheld freedom of religion and secularism and did not discriminate against one specific community.

Absolutely the situation in the Muslim world needs to change, and Muslims in the West with connections back home need to drive that point home about how the US is by yards closer to a 'true Islamic society' than anything in the Muslim world.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

you're deliberately ignoring features of the religion that gives loonies and the psychologically ill the nudge to go out and kill, and even more amazingly kill themselves in the process.

yes islam is a tool and it seems to be an easy one to use as an instrument for violence.

other religions aren't producing unrepentantly violent people like faizal shahzad or muhammad bouyeri.

The Northern Ireland produced plenty of loonies that were not Muslim, as did the LTTE, as did the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda. And what of the genocides in Africa?

The fact is that all those people find some tool or the other - right now, given the central place Islam occupies in the lives of many Muslims, Islam is seen as the most effective tool to win supporters for political and social causes. It is easy to use as a tool because of its centrality in peoples lives, and not because of what it preaches.

 

[whocares]

The Northern Ireland produced plenty of loonies that were not Muslim, as did the LTTE, as did the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda. And what of the genocides in Africa?

The fact is that all those people find some tool or the other - right now, given the central place Islam occupies in the lives of many Muslims, Islam is seen as the most effective tool to win supporters for political and social causes. It is easy to use as a tool because of its centrality in peoples lives, and not because of what it preaches.

i've kinda made my point and this is not the forum to dig deeper into a taxonomy of the belief violence causality.

 

[Solomon2]

No shame at all. I can't control them from waving the banner of Islam...I was a victim in that sense.

How do you feel victimized?

 

[v9s]

Absolutely the situation in the Muslim world needs to change, and Muslims in the West with connections back home need to drive that point home about how the US is by yards closer to a 'true Islamic society' than anything in the Muslim world.

Indeed.

USA as a society and as a nation practices God's laws as laid out in the Quran, more so, than any other nation in the world.

One Nation, Under God, Indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for All

Gambit, you should be proud that your country has upheld its religious freedom.

 

[Chogy]

Indeed.

USA as a society and as a nation practices God's laws as laid out in the Quran, more so, than any other nation in the world.

One Nation, Under God, Indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for All

Gambit, you should be proud that your country has upheld its religious freedom.

My country has its good and bad, but one thing that has held rock-steady throughout its history is the total freedom to worship. If you can buy the land, you can build the church, Mosque, Synagogue, whatever. If there are zoning issues, they are applied evenly, meaning this sentence:

"A Mosque is no-go, but a church in the same spot would be OK."

would be totally blown up in court in favor of the Mosque.

The way to build the Mosque with sensitivity and respect is to not attempt to tie it in any way to 9-11 in news releases and media. Not an edifice to reconciliation, not a "peace" structure. Just build the Mosque. I think dedicating it on 9-11 is not a particularly good idea, but otherwise, I have no problems with it. Muslim-Americans did NOT attack the U.S. on that terrible day... it was enemies from without.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Am i right that you have no sense of shame that militants waved the banner of Islam to justify murdering 3,000 people?

One can only imagine how much a muzlum is hated in America and wats it like to be a muzlum there ..
though i don't really know it but alot of people say America is by far the most tolerant country on earth when it comes to practice your religion .. !!!

ever wondered why the banner of wmd's were used to justify the killing of 100times more than those killed in the tragedy of 9/11..??

 

[Ras]

You are entitled to form whatever opinions you want, but I will speak for myself and my beliefs and my Islam, when I feel like it. I am not anymore responsible for what what an Islamic extremist believes/does than I am for what a Catholic priest raping Children believes/does.

If so then the general people will assume that the real Islam is what the terrorist espouse. And that will affect the Muslims in America in multiple ways from immigration to work.So it is in the general Muslim interests to protest loudly over Islamic related terrorism.

It is slightly different from Christian issues...Muslims are a minority here.And Minorities everywhere have to be careful. It is not fair but that is the way it is.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is slightly different from Christian issues...Muslims are a minority here.And Minorities everywhere have to be careful. It is not fair but that is the way it is.

It is 'the way it is' in many places because people refuse to stand up and oppose it.

Bloomberg has obviously chosen not to stay silent, and in my little way I will not either, though other Democratic leaders from NY have been guilty of deliberate ambivalence IMO, and the US media has treated the issue as if it actually has two 'rational' viewpoints. Objectivity is one thing, but without anything factual to hang criticizm of the mosque on, the media should never have given the airtime it did to opponents of the mosque.

'I am not a racist, but I would prefer Black people not move into this particular neighborhood because a Black man robbed and killed several people here years ago'.

It is not fair, and it should be called out for what it is - there is always a chance of the system failing, but at the moment it is not, and those opposing unfair attitudes should push the system to at least provide legal relief. The Court ruling on Gay marriages in California, despite a majority of voters in California supporting a ban on Gay marriages, is one such instance of the System overcoming popular prejudice, bias and discriminatory attitudes, and hopefully setting the standard for what is considered 'fair' and what is not, just as Court rulings against segregationist laws and policies 'officially' shoved that particular viewpoint where it belonged.