GIDS reveals FAAZ series of missiles.

[That Guy]

They are air to ground

Like all of our previous ammunition they are either Chinese or south African knockoffs with permission from earlier and with buyout from the later

No, they're air to air. Just saw a video of the missile displays. It clearly says air to air on them. Looks like the image that was posted was either a fake troll, or a mistake.

Also, I wouldn't say that they're a knock off. They clearly incorporate tech from various ToTs that Pakistan has received over the years, but that's a good way to build up your own industry from scratch and catch up quickly.

Every nation pretty much does this.

 

[KaiserX]

No, they're air to air. Just saw a video of the missile displays. It clearly says air to air on them. Looks like the image that was posted was either a fake troll, or a mistake.

Also, I wouldn't say that they're a knock off. They clearly incorporate tech from various ToTs that Pakistan has received over the years, but that's a good way to build up your own industry from scratch and catch up quickly.

Every nation pretty much does this.

Pakistan has been building missiles of various categories for decades be it shoulder launched manpads, anti tank missiles, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles.

To go from all those missiles to developing a bvr missile isnt nearly as difficult as just building a bvr missile from scratch.

Propulsion/guidance tech is actually pretty similar. So its not really starting from “scratch” as many may believe.

Infact I am surprised even until now Pakistan hasnt developed a medium/long range SAM by now.

 

[Piet]

If I recall correctly PAF bought the designs of south african BVRs long ago and continued to work with DENEL on research + development of air to air missiles. Chinese must have also shared tech on the SD-10 (PL15 being to advanced).

This is in line with performance paremeters being similar to the AIM120C5 and SD10 already in service since the last 15 years.

Again both the AIM120C5 and SD10 are still very deadly missiles and proven combat kills. Rather go off of proven designs that more expensive modern ones



All things said and done we can comfortable estimate a 25-35% decrease in range if launched from the ground when be in stationary launch mode with the current design + booster modifications. Still a deadly range notheless for a SAM system

Very interesting thread, thank you.

South Africa was involved in the late 80s and into the 90s with various VLRAAM's.

These involved integral ramjet propulsion. Known as T-Darter and S-Darter, with B-Darter being the likely final iteration (IR nosecone). These were not small missiles, so I can understand a Mirage toting it on the centerline. An earlier iteration, with the solid nosecone - had even put in an appearance in Russia (likely the image with some blue in it).

Very nice pics of all at :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1569431398548652034

The R-4 Darter BVR AAM that SAAF operated appeared to be very similar to Rafael's Derby.

Lastly, the more recent 'Marlin' BVR AAM (~100km), reportedly radar guided - active I assume.

https://backend.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/fpsc_885x500/public/uploads/2014/09/webmissiles.jpg?h=cc1814f1&itok=lxLm_flZ

Anything on what Pakistan got from SA pertaining to AAM's would be appreciated.

P

 

[Bossman]

Such an approach will lead to stagnation and inefficiency ultimately will cost more ...

As compared let say what turkey Israel and India has done

What has India done in this space

 

[SQ8]

Very interesting thread, thank you.

South Africa was involved in the late 80s and into the 90s with various VLRAAM's.

These involved integral ramjet propulsion. Known as T-Darter and S-Darter, with B-Darter being the likely final iteration (IR nosecone). These were not small missiles, so I can understand a Mirage toting it on the centerline. An earlier iteration, with the solid nosecone - had even put in an appearance in Russia (likely the image with some blue in it).

Very nice pics of all at :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1569431398548652034

The R-4 Darter BVR AAM that SAAF operated appeared to be very similar to Rafael's Derby.

Lastly, the more recent 'Marlin' BVR AAM (~100km), reportedly radar guided - active I assume.

https://backend.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/fpsc_885x500/public/uploads/2014/09/webmissiles.jpg?h=cc1814f1&itok=lxLm_flZ

Anything on what Pakistan got from SA pertaining to AAM's would be appreciated.

P

Attempts were made to integrate the Darter variants with the Upgraded mirages back in the 90s and then some interest with the JF-17 program. However, nothing beyond that.

SA weapons on Pakistani aircraft are limited to the Raptor series although a lot of SA SME on various skillsets have been involved as consultants on multiple projects including Mirages, JF-17 and UaVs

 

[Piet]

Attempts were made to integrate the Darter variants with the Upgraded mirages back in the 90s and then some interest with the JF-17 program. However, nothing beyond that.

SA weapons on Pakistani aircraft are limited to the Raptor series although a lot of SA SME on various skillsets have been involved as consultants on multiple projects including Mirages, JF-17 and UaVs

Thank you.

P

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Infact I am surprised even until now Pakistan hasnt developed a medium/long range SAM by now.

Because you can't support an industry just based on 1 sector. Technology is dual-use Pakistan has never understood the ability for it to provide/share technology across the civil-military space.

Look at the advancements in India/Iran/N.Korea/US/etc missile programs they're built upon the space technology. Israel's outsized technological prowess is built from their extensive interconnectivity of both C-M fields.

Meanwhile missiles in Pakistan's arsenal, built as Space Launch Vehicles, can't even be shared for advancement with SUPARO. Backwards policies have held back the country throughout it's 76 year history. With personalities developed for greed and fame over achievement.

 

[KaiserX]

Because you can't support an industry just based on 1 sector. Technology is dual-use Pakistan has never understood the ability for it to provide/share technology across the civil-military space.

Look at the advancements in India/Iran/N.Korea/US/etc missile programs they're built upon the space technology. Israel's outsized technological prowess is built from their extensive interconnectivity of both C-M fields.

Meanwhile missiles in Pakistan's arsenal, built as Space Launch Vehicles, can't even be shared for advancement with SUPARO. Backwards policies have held back the country throughout it's 76 year history. With personalities developed for greed and fame over achievement.

I agree but def wouldnt put India in the same category as Iran or Turkey when it comes to indiginous defence production.

Pakistan had a headstart ahead of Iran/Turkey in many aspects of missile/defence tech only to squander them later. A prime example being the inflated deal to buy 3 agosta subs with tot in the 90s. Since then we havnt even developed pur own sub let alone even midget subs.

In many respects corruption within the army and the current structure or pakistan defence enterprises is to blame. Just as all state/army lead enterprises… full of potential yet deals and decisions made to benefit a select few rather than the overall defence industry itself.

First step should be to remove all retired army personal. Competent scientist/engineers should be appointed. And defence industry as all industries in pakistan should be privitized and shares sold to the public.

In many respects it was government policies + a combination of private sector funds that kickstarted Turkish defence industry.

 

[S.Y.A]

First step should be to remove all retired army personal. Competent scientist/engineers should be appointed. And defence industry as all industries in pakistan should be privitized and shares sold to the public.

really very hard to do in govt run setups. those appointed on top will have come through on sifarish or another.

 

[Zarvan]

The aircraft shot down a slow speed target with BVR (Beyond Visual Range) and IR (Infrared) missile with pinpoint accuracy at Sonmiani firing range.The statement added that a state-of-the-art weapon test range was made operational to track the complete trajectory of the aircraft and launched missiles

@RAMPAGE @JamD @KaiserX @Arsalan @DESERT FIGHTER @AUz @waz @Bilal9 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Quwa @Zephyrus @Tipu7 and others
The missile was tested and integrated with JF-17 but as we already were operating this range missiles FAAZ 1 never entered mass production.

 

[Zarvan]