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Geopolitics of ASEAN+ region

South Asia is the least integrated region economically and the second poorest region in the world. Something desperately have to be done. Instead, we are fighting each other for the slightest difference. India as the largest economy in South Asia should carry out a responsible role for the stability and economic development of South Asia.


South Asia is only a single region in academic discussions for "nerds".

There can be no beneficial cooperation in South Asia for there is no balance.

No two countries in South Asia share a land border with each other except some low IQ country.

Bhutan and Nepal do not share any land borders. Bangladesh and Bhutan do not share any land borders. Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, or Bangladesh and Maldives are not land/maritime neighbours. Pakistan shares land borders with only one country in South Asia.

It was never meant to work, the British created the fake country to further the Anglo American agenda for centuries to come. The Anglo Americans are decades ahead of the Russians, who are ahead of the Chinese, in forging an independent and novel solution to address their own national interests in far flung corners of the world.
 
Bro, I recommend both Bangladesh and Sri Lanka to go for joining ASEAN instead and build a shared future in ASEAN+, please read the OP. India will be a drag for any country that gets entangled with it. Sri Lanka more than anyone else should know this from recent experience.

Agreed. India is totally irresponsible as a neighbour and its political system is a total mess. However can we ignore its economic might and its potential to become an economic leader?

South Asia is only a single region in academic discussions for "nerds".

There can be no beneficial cooperation in South Asia for there is no balance.

No two countries in South Asia share a land border with each other except some low IQ country.

Bhutan and Nepal do not share any land borders. Bangladesh and Bhutan do not share any land borders. Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, or Bangladesh and Maldives are not land/maritime neighbours. Pakistan shares land borders with only one country in South Asia.

It was never meant to work, the British created the fake country to further the Anglo American agenda for centuries to come. The Anglo Americans are decades ahead of the Russians, who are ahead of the Chinese, in forging an independent and novel solution to address their own national interests in far flung corners of the world.

Well, I don't think borders will become a problem for regional cooperation. According to what I think, South Asia's biggest problems are lack of flexibility and too much diversity in terms of religion and culture. Also India's actions to become the big brother is a major problem as well. I think it's about time we should push towards cooperation instead of conflicts. It's up to us to recover from the mess created by colonialists.
 
Agreed. India is totally irresponsible as a neighbour and its political system is a total mess. However can we ignore its economic might and its potential to become an economic leader?

Well, I don't think borders will become a problem for regional cooperation. According to what I think, South Asia's biggest problems are lack of flexibility and too much diversity in terms of religion and culture. Also India's actions to become the big brother is a major problem as well. I think it's about time we should push towards cooperation instead of conflicts.

With due respect bro, may I ask about your ethnic origin, are you Sinhalese or Tamil?

SAARC is as dead as a Dodo bird. It has become a tool for Indian hegemony and should be rejected and scrapped by rest of South Asian countries and thrown to the trash bin of history.
 
With due respect bro, may I ask about your ethnic origin, are you Sinhalese or Tamil?

SAARC is as dead as a Dodo bird. It has become a tool for Indian hegemony and should be rejected and scrapped by rest of South Asian countries and thrown to the trash bin of history.

I am Sinhalese. I agree, this Indian hegemony has become one of the biggest problems in South Asia.
 
National ego based on past accomplishments should not get in the way of future security paradigms. The world is changing, rather going back to the past status quo that existed before the past 500 years of brief global interregnum led by the West. People will adjust to this changing reality and act accordingly based on their pragmatic national interest.


Wasn't Nawab Siraj Ud Daula the ruler of Bangladesh in 1757? The West only started leading some two centuries ago, at least, from a Bangladeshi perspective. We were richer than the West back then.


Japan will not want to accept 2nd fiddle position to China, that is why I am betting that they will go for this ASEAN+ project. But so far they seem completely asleep, basking in the glory of US nuke umbrella.

1. Not really. Their space programme (solid fuelled launcher, and space probe returned to Earth safely and precisely from some asteroid, I think) is a clear indication of their ICBM capability.

2. Their plutonium reserves are in excess of 45 tonnes, that's probably much higher than Chinese reserves. Their most probable use in times of crises is obvious.

3. Add (1)+(2) together. You get the picture.


Indonesia as the largest nation in ASEAN+ will have its glory days in the future, when it has a more developed population, but for now, they must accept Japanese and Korean leadership.


Indonesia might accept Japanese leadership (or might not) because Japan's GDP will probably be larger than Indonesia for another 3 decades. That's not the case with Korea.


Korea is essentially a smaller version of Japan. It has great potentials due to even superior genetic traits and better food habits than Japanese. Once upon a time, the Yamato Wa was a junior brother to Baekche, one of the 3 kingdoms in Korea, 1400 years back. I think I know Korea well enough to say that it is a smaller and less aggressive and less racist version of Japan. It also shares proto-Turkic, Mongolic, Altaic blood unlike the Japanese, which is common among large number of Muslim elites in many Eurasian countries. The Altaic blood in Japanese royal and aristocratic families mostly were migrants from ancient Korean 3 kingdoms.


You are basing your arguments on some tribal blood line like desert dwellers do in their desert kingdoms.

Koreans have never been a regional power in their region. They have either been a subordinate of China, or they have been a subordinate of Japan, or they have been a battleground for Chinese and Japanese influence.


Rather than trying to imitate some historical "nobody", we should closely study why and how, Japan, a homogeneous nation with few natural resources and prone to natural disasters have been able to subjugate 10X larger China so many times in the last few centuries.

Though, we must learn from their successes, we must also learn from their failures as well and never repeat those mistakes. Another fact is, we can enjoy "strategic depth" if we can forge closer people to people relations with the wider Muslim world ( I have provided an incomplete list of major Muslim countries we should leverage on), countries like Vietnam or Korea alone have no such possible "strategic depth" thus they will have to toe the Chinese line (like in the past), whereas in our case, the Hindus (no offense) have always been slaves for centuries.


Defeat of the Beiyang fleet - Event during the First Sino-Japanese War

The Japanese managed to sink the Chinese Beiyang fleet (although both were "modern" fleets for their time). Great tactics, implementation of flawless plans were the essential ingredients for success.

Korea was merely a battleground between the Japanese and Chinese.


So, it is unlikely they will accept Korea as an equal, let alone Indonesia accepting Korea as the leader for the long term.
 
I never said that you think those Urine drinkers or tree dwellers are our allies. I merely mentioned that, those are our enemies, and I understand their mindsets. Just because I know how their minds work, does not mean I try to paint them as our allies.

Similarly, we can study and understand how Western minds work, but we should not consider them allies nor enemies. Just neutral trading partners.

I don't disagree much here, except, that, the Japanese at least did not quite copy as much as the Chinese.

Who did the Japanese copy when they sent their first satellites in 1970 before China? Soviet Union, France of America?

The Japanese were prepared to develop their indigenous (fourth generation) fighter jet FS-X, but Americans interfered, and stopped that programme, and asked the Japanese to pursue the F-2 programme (a modified, more capable and superior F-16, if you like).

The Japanese built the 'heaviest' surface warship in history (Yamato) displacing more than 70,000 tonnes. Since nobody built an equal or superior version at that time, who did the Japanese copy?

Whereas, the Chinese still need to send huge numbers of students to their rival America, the Japanese have scaled that number down, in the same way that the numbers were low for Russia or France for most of the last few decades.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. Even in Bangladesh, we had Siraj Ud Daula as late as 1757, so that 500 years figure is a stretch.

That we can agree or disagree with, but that's a different issue.

My point was, that any mention of Japan or Russian capability gives many Chinese severe "heart burns". Why is that? Because of their "historical relations" (or the way they were humiliated). America and the West started this war against Islam, so there is no reason to think they are our allies. America is not starting a war against China, that's why the Chinese don't get quite as worked up.

So, we should go for closer friendships with Japan and Russia than the Chinese because we have not suffered anything/as much from these countries, but the Chinese have, and likewise, we should scale down relations with the West, because the West is the evil (for us), but not so much for the Chinese.

No major disagreements.

We also need to be flexible and responsive to changes in environment, and geopolitical balance of power.

Any opening we find must be exploited.

We do not need to antagonize the West openly now, but no need to treat them as our allies. Slowly, we should change our pattern of trade, migration, destinations for higher education and whatever else "soft power" methods the West uses to control the masses.

Last but not the least, due to China's poor and undeveloped political and diplomatic skills (far behind Russia, which is at least two decades behind Anglo Americans in its development process), we can not rely much on China. They may sell Bangladesh off, after all, they are Kafir as well. They are such simpletons, at the official level, that they believe in the Western created dichotomy of "moderate" vs "extremist" Muslims, and any Muslim who is seen as "way too Orthodox" or "religious" will be considered an "extremist" in their view.

They are also way too backward when it comes to developing any indigenous doctrines, can you believe it, they STILL (to this day) rely on sending hordes of students to America for education.

This is far from being a superpower. Even some of the most "mature" Chinese minds in defence forum happen to young lads in their 20s studying in some American universities.

Don't expect any miracle from China.

In fact, I predict a sharp tapering off Chinese growth in the coming decade (not in the next one or two years, but next decade) for the simple reason that they can not innovate. They do not even have the courage to question "authority", whether in China or outside.

For the Chinese government, the issue is the same. They see the West as "the authority', and do not want to question it no matter how obviously wrong the West may be (even if the West is against China, they can hardly voice their justified concerns appropriately - and no, writing a few editorials in their state controlled newspapers do nothing to address this concern). Their diplomatic corps is so poor, they congratulated BAL soon after 2009 fraudulent elections, they worked with Pakistan's "Zardari government" (installed by Americans), and now they find nobody supporting them on SCS or disputes with neighbours.

Looks like I misunderstood the meaning of your sentence about my considering the tree dwellers being our allies, sorry.

Good observations over all. That is how things look today, but things will change and perceptions will change accordingly.

Japanese as an island nation had the luck to avoid foreign subjugation. Even the Yuan Mongol (together with Koreans) armada's failed to subjugate them, because of two typhoons, which they call Divine Wind or Kami Kaze in Japanese. Unfortunately the Kami Kaze pilots failed to save them from defeat in WW II.

On the other hand, China have been in flux for thousands of years, more recently they were subjugated by Mongols (Yuan) and later by a confederation of Manchu-Mongols (Qing). Manchu's and their ancestor Jurchens are neighbors and have old relations with Koreans. Only in 1912, after the fall of Manchu Qing, Han Chinese finally threw off "foreign" subjugation, but got embroiled in their own civil war between Nationalists and Communists. Mao killed off a large number of the bourgeois intelligentsia elite, I am guessing the mixed blood former aristocrats, during the "Cultural Revolution" idiocy. The new elite is just in the formation stage, so it will take a few more generations to mature.

Your observation on the difference in performance is due to the above disruptions in Historical Continuity. One more example, why Historical Continuity and preventing foreign subjugation is so essential to any group of human beings.

The 500 year figure is the total duration that starts with renaissance and European era of colonization of distant parts of the planet. I did not mean to say that all countries were under Western influence for all 500 years.
 
Good observations. That is how things look today, but things will change and perceptions will change accordingly.

Japanese as an island nation had the luck to avoid foreign subjugation. Even the Yuan Mongol (together with Koreans) armada's failed to subjugate them, because of two typhoons, which they call Divine Wind or Kami Kaze in Japanese. Unfortunately the Kami Kaze pilots failed to save them from defeat in WW II.

On the other hand, China have been in flux for thousands of years, more recently they were subjugated by Mongols (Yuan) and later by a confederation of Manchu-Mongols (Qing). Manchu's and their ancestor Jurchens are neighbors and have old relations with Koreans. Only in 1912, after the fall of Manchu Qing, Han Chinese finally threw off "foreign" subjugation, but got embroiled in their own civil war between Nationalists and Communists. Mao killed off a large number of the bourgeois intelligentsia elite, I am guessing the mixed blood former aristocrats, during the "Cultural Revolution" idiocy. The new elite is just in the formation stage, so it will take a few more generations to mature.

Your observation due to the difference in performance is due to the above disruptions in Historical Continuity. One more example, why Historical Continuity and preventing foreign subjugation is so essential to any group of human beings.

The 500 year figure is the total duration that starts with renaissance and European era of colonization of distant parts of the planet. I did not mean to say that all countries were under Western influence for all 500 years.


Have you checked your inbox?

The 500 years figure for the West is dubious, but I understand that you live in the West, so won't argue that much on this issue.

As for the rest of the arguments, I mostly agree. So, we can not rely on the immature Chinese leadership to forge alliances or build unbreakable partnerships - that is, they may sell any partner off if they find it beneficial.

Societies like Hong Kong, Taiwan, Macau or Singapore may have high income and development levels, yet they know they have to be subservient to the West. Although these countries' citizens are generally better educated, they can not think independently. Whereas, the Chinese in Mainland China for the most part have never engaged in independent thought because their government never allows it, and for them, America is still some sort of a "holy grail". They still need to send students to America in large numbers.

So, I think closer win-win relationships with Russia, Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand to our East (mostly), and other Muslim majority countries to our West is needed. Chinese will also be a crucial partner, but due to their unreliability in times of crises (e.g. congratulating BAL promptly after the West installed them, and yet BAL's media like "71 TV" and others pander to Hindustani and American interests, while calling Pakistanis "hyenas" and the Chinese as "enemies of Bangladesh in 1971" (or something like that)) is proof that they have a long way to go. Their media report immediately after Shapla Chottor (Water lily square) massacre by BAL-Hindustani-RAW-RAB-Hindutva extremist nexus merely copy-pasted BAL's press release, so to speak.

A reinvigorated Japan is far better for the Muslims, because Japan has had almost no clash with Muslims even at the height of anti-Muslim paranoia created by the West and even when Japan is "virtually" occupied by the West. Whereas, China still has issues with East Turkestan/Xinjiang and its rotten communist ideology of not allowing all Islamic practices free rein.

An awakened Japan, with Bangladesh and some ASEAN countries, maybe Korea, as junior partners (let's be realistic, we can't expect to be equal partners to an ultranationalistic Japan in a Japanese-led alliance) will do great wonders to all sides. Cheap labour, young populations, briskly growing consumer markets and industrial capabilities in Bangladesh+most ASEAN (leave Singapore out of it, because we can also use Singapore as a "bargaining chip" with the Chinese if they get a little too uppity; don't forget, that we need to treat Singapore the same way that we need to treat Hindustan, other wise countries like Malaysia and Indonesia may not join in our expeditions eagerly) can act as Japan's "hinterland", and we can rapidly develop our scientific, civilian and military technological capabilities by leaps and bounds).


For example, some low IQ country is creating a ruckus because they purchased some MPA (Martime Patrol Aircraft) from a Western country, while Japan recently inducted its indigenous, domestic XP-1 MPA aircraft powered by its own domestic (IHI) engines, armed with domestic AShM (anti Ship missiles), guided by AESA radars developed by TRDI (I think) and controlled by novel "fly by light" system.

In simpler words, the potential is immense if Japan assumes a "normal" military position, again.



Edit: I must add, that individual Western European countries like France, Germany, Sweden or Britain are capable of producing some very useful and handy technology for the civilian and military industries, but we MUST always deal with them bilaterally, or ensure that our 'alliance' acts as one during the negotiations period.

The problem with USA is that it's not likely to transfer any civilian or military technology merely for short term commercial reasons without extracting any geopolitical advantage, and it's way too large (GDP wise) for any single country in our hypothetical alliance to negotiate on a bilateral basis.

So, distant relationships with the Americans, closer with Western Europeans, even closer with the Chinese, but the closest with our long term potential and stable allies. We can not just dream of alliances on the internet, or hope that any impassioned politicians' speech or a few articles in newspapers will change things.

Greater people to people exchanges selected intelligently is the way to go about it.
 
Wasn't Nawab Siraj Ud Daula the ruler of Bangladesh in 1757? The West only started leading some two centuries ago, at least, from a Bangladeshi perspective. We were richer than the West back then.

1. Not really. Their space programme (solid fuelled launcher, and space probe returned to Earth safely and precisely from some asteroid, I think) is a clear indication of their ICBM capability.

2. Their plutonium reserves are in excess of 45 tonnes, that's probably much higher than Chinese reserves. Their most probable use in times of crises is obvious.

3. Add (1)+(2) together. You get the picture.

Indonesia might accept Japanese leadership (or might not) because Japan's GDP will probably be larger than Indonesia for another 3 decades. That's not the case with Korea.

You are basing your arguments on some tribal blood line like desert dwellers do in their desert kingdoms.

Koreans have never been a regional power in their region. They have either been a subordinate of China, or they have been a subordinate of Japan, or they have been a battleground for Chinese and Japanese influence.

Rather than trying to imitate some historical "nobody", we should closely study why and how, Japan, a homogeneous nation with few natural resources and prone to natural disasters have been able to subjugate 10X larger China so many times in the last few centuries.

Though, we must learn from their successes, we must also learn from their failures as well and never repeat those mistakes. Another fact is, we can enjoy "strategic depth" if we can forge closer people to people relations with the wider Muslim world ( I have provided an incomplete list of major Muslim countries we should leverage on), countries like Vietnam or Korea alone have no such possible "strategic depth" thus they will have to toe the Chinese line (like in the past), whereas in our case, the Hindus (no offense) have always been slaves for centuries.

Defeat of the Beiyang fleet - Event during the First Sino-Japanese War

The Japanese managed to sink the Chinese Beiyang fleet (although both were "modern" fleets for their time). Great tactics, implementation of flawless plans were the essential ingredients for success.

Korea was merely a battleground between the Japanese and Chinese.

So, it is unlikely they will accept Korea as an equal, let alone Indonesia accepting Korea as the leader for the long term.

Sirajuddaula, the loser, was a Persian origin Shia, so was Mir Jafar, Jinnah, Iskander Mirza, Dhaka Nawabs, most of the 22 Industrial families of Pakistan, people who financed the Jinnah's Pakistan movement, Bhutto, Yahya Khan etc., not relevant to the thread, but I am revising and reviewing my views about Shia role in South Asian history, from early days, specially since Safavids got an entry due to the help they provided to Humayun after his defeat against Sher Shah. Shia's and Ismaili's were also willing collaborators for the British just like many Hindu's were, during the days of British raj, hence like Hindu's many Shia retained or gained high position of wealth and power. Many Bihari migrants to East Pakistan were Shia. Their influence stopped after 1971 in Bangladesh and after the fall of Bhutto in Pakistan.

Japan does have "capabilities" as you pointed out, good observation.

You would be surprised who put more emphasis on blood lines than desert dwellers, that bro would be the Japanese.

In fact it is due to blood lines, the Japanese would accept the Koreans as younger brothers or junior partners, but never the Indonesians. I am sure you are aware that after Japanese occupation of Korea, Imperial Japan actually wanted to absorb Korea as part of Japan, just like they did with Manchurians in Manchukuo.

Koreans were a peer power of the Chinese and definitely superior to Japan around 1400 years back during 3 kingdom period. But during the process of consolidating these 3 kingdoms into one (unified Silla) with a Tang alliance, they lost a big chunk of land in Manchuria and Siberia to Tang dynasty. They have remained a Chinese vassal ever since, but fought and retained their independence as a nation if and when attacked and has developed intense dislike for the Chinese as a result, kind of like we Bangladeshi's started hating India after 1971.

Korea does not have to be accepted as equal to Japan, Japan is the obvious undisputed leader in ASEAN+, but Korea will hold a position higher than all other ASEAN countries, as long as their human development index is higher than other ASEAN countries. Total GDP due to higher population means little, what matters is per capita GDP which I believe results from higher human development.
 
Sirajuddaula, the loser, was a Persian origin Shia, so was Mir Jafar, Jinnah, Iskander Mirza, Dhaka Nawabs, most of the 22 Industrial families of Pakistan, people who financed the Jinnah's Pakistan movement, Bhutto, Yahya Khan etc., not relevant to the thread, but I am revising and reviewing my views about Shia role in South Asian history, from early days, specially since Safavids got an entry due to the help they provided to Humayun after his defeat against Sher Shah. Shia's and Ismaili's were also willing collaborators for the British just like many Hindu's were, during the days of British raj, hence like Hindu's many Shia retained or gained high position of wealth and power. Many Bihari migrants to East Pakistan were Shia. Their influence stopped after 1971 in Bangladesh and after the fall of Bhutto in Pakistan.

Japan does have "capabilities" as you pointed out, good observation.

You would be surprised who put more emphasis on blood lines than desert dwellers, that bro would be the Japanese.

In fact it is due to blood lines, the Japanese would accept the Koreans as younger brothers or junior partners, but never the Indonesians. I am sure you are aware that after Japanese occupation of Korea, Imperial Japan actually wanted to absorb Korea as part of Japan, just like they did with Manchurians in Manchukuo.

Koreans were a peer power of the Chinese and definitely superior to Japan around 1400 years back during 3 kingdom period. But during the process of consolidating these 3 kingdoms into one (unified Silla) with a Tang alliance, they lost a big chunk of land in Manchuria and Siberia to Tang dynasty. They have remained a Chinese vassal ever since, but fought and retained their independence as a nation if and when attacked and has developed intense dislike for the Chinese as a result, kind of like we Bangladeshi's started hating India after 1971.

Korea does not have to be accepted as equal to Japan, Japan is the obvious undisputed leader in ASEAN+, but Korea will hold a position higher than all other ASEAN countries, as long as their human development index is higher than other ASEAN countries. Total GDP due to higher population means little, what matters is per capita GDP which I believe results from higher human development.


Let's not act like desert dwellers and start hating on Persians, Shias, Sunnis, Arabs or whatever else. The desert dwellers are low IQ imbeciles, they have nothing to do with that. Let's say, Siraj Ud Dawla was a loser. What did the "winning" Sunni Bangladeshis do in that period to oust the Brits? Nothing significant.

We have nothing to do with the Hindustanis or whatever. Korea and Chinese are related because the Koreans have been vassals of the Chinese for centuries, whereas, for Hindus (no offense), they are 'recently liberated' by the British and provided an unnaturally large land area (at the expense of Bangladesh) and resources to serve the Anglo American purposes. Prior to that, the Hindus (again no offense) have always been slaves.

In ASEAN, Brunei and Singapore have higher GDP per capita than Korea, but lower aggregate GDP. Then, will these two countries "lead" ASEAN? Simply, no.

Likewise, Korea may bask in the limelight so long as their aggregate GDP is higher than Indonesia (possibly for the next 3 to 5 years) but soon after, they will not enjoy that privileged position. And, if North Korea is absorbed in South Korea (which is a different matter altogether), then Korean GDP per capita will plummet further.

Malaysia is multi religious, multi racial, "melting pot" of multi lingual and immigrant peoples, if you like. So their development is naturally hampered when trying to balance so many competing forces, yet Malaysia had often been compared to Korea for its economic development. In other words, there is just nothing special that South Korea alone adds to the 'camp' though Japan is a different player altogether.

The Japanese have also disputes about the Takeshima/Dokdo (whatever you call it) with the Koreans, nothing as such with the ASEAN countries. Blood line? I don't know about Japanese link with Koreans, is that why they subjugated Koreans for so many centuries?

So, in essence, I see that a weak alliance may form in the coming years, but the question of Korean lead will be contested by at least two powers (Japan and Indonesia).
 
Have you checked your inbox?

The 500 years figure for the West is dubious, but I understand that you live in the West, so won't argue that much on this issue.

As for the rest of the arguments, I mostly agree. So, we can not rely on the immature Chinese leadership to forge alliances or build unbreakable partnerships - that is, they may sell any partner off if they find it beneficial.

Societies like Hong Kong, Taiwan, Macau or Singapore may have high income and development levels, yet they know they have to be subservient to the West. Although these countries' citizens are generally better educated, they can not think independently. Whereas, the Chinese in Mainland China for the most part have never engaged in independent thought because their government never allows it, and for them, America is still some sort of a "holy grail". They still need to send students to America in large numbers.

So, I think closer win-win relationships with Russia, Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand to our East (mostly), and other Muslim majority countries to our West is needed. Chinese will also be a crucial partner, but due to their unreliability in times of crises (e.g. congratulating BAL promptly after the West installed them, and yet BAL's media like "71 TV" and others pander to Hindustani and American interests, while calling Pakistanis "hyenas" and the Chinese as "enemies of Bangladesh in 1971" (or something like that)) is proof that they have a long way to go. Their media report immediately after Shapla Chottor (Water lily square) massacre by BAL-Hindustani-RAW-RAB-Hindutva extremist nexus merely copy-pasted BAL's press release, so to speak.

A reinvigorated Japan is far better for the Muslims, because Japan has had almost no clash with Muslims even at the height of anti-Muslim paranoia created by the West and even when Japan is "virtually" occupied by the West. Whereas, China still has issues with East Turkestan/Xinjiang and its rotten communist ideology of not allowing all Islamic practices free rein.

An awakened Japan, with Bangladesh and some ASEAN countries, maybe Korea, as junior partners (let's be realistic, we can't expect to be equal partners to an ultranationalistic Japan in a Japanese-led alliance) will do great wonders to all sides. Cheap labour, young populations, briskly growing consumer markets and industrial capabilities in Bangladesh+most ASEAN (leave Singapore out of it, because we can also use Singapore as a "bargaining chip" with the Chinese if they get a little too uppity; don't forget, that we need to treat Singapore the same way that we need to treat Hindustan, other wise countries like Malaysia and Indonesia may not join in our expeditions eagerly) can act as Japan's "hinterland", and we can rapidly develop our scientific, civilian and military technological capabilities by leaps and bounds).


For example, some low IQ country is creating a ruckus because they purchased some MPA (Martime Patrol Aircraft) from a Western country, while Japan recently inducted its indigenous, domestic XP-1 MPA aircraft powered by its own domestic (IHI) engines, armed with domestic AShM (anti Ship missiles), guided by AESA radars developed by TRDI (I think) and controlled by novel "fly by light" system.

In simpler words, the potential is immense if Japan assumes a "normal" military position, again.

Edit: I must add, that individual Western European countries like France, Germany, Sweden or Britain are capable of producing some very useful and handy technology for the civilian and military industries, but we MUST always deal with them bilaterally, or ensure that our 'alliance' acts as one during the negotiations period.

The problem with USA is that it's not likely to transfer any civilian or military technology merely for short term commercial reasons without extracting any geopolitical advantage, and it's way too large (GDP wise) for any single country in our hypothetical alliance to negotiate on a bilateral basis.

So, distant relationships with the Americans, closer with Western Europeans, even closer with the Chinese, but the closest with our long term potential and stable allies. We can not just dream of alliances on the internet, or hope that any impassioned politicians' speech or a few articles in newspapers will change things.

Greater people to people exchanges selected intelligently is the way to go about it.

I share your reservations about the Chinese and your enthusiasm about Japanese. That is the core argument for ASEAN+.

Imperial Japan had a policy of alliance with Muslims of South East Asia, Arab countries as well as Central Asia, including those of Xinjiang. Their support for Central Asian Muslims were mainly due to Altaic blood lines, if I am not mistaken, which the Japanese put some value in. Many Japanese became Muslims as a result of this policy of alliance with Muslims and some elderly diplomats and scholars still are from that pre-war period. Problem is the current generation of Japanese have been completely brainwashed by Western media.

So the blind following of the West is not just limited to Chinese, it is also the case with Japanese now since the defeat. Not sure when they will kick the bases out and become independent again. For this to happen, Koreans need more peaceful unification steps and eventual kicking out of bases from the peninsula. The excuse for the US base in Okinawa is a belligerent North Korea.

Building an offline people to people network is the way to go. Internet is a great communication tool, but it is not an effective team building tool.
 
I share your reservations about the Chinese and your enthusiasm about Japanese. That is the core argument for ASEAN+.

Imperial Japan had a policy of alliance with Muslims of South East Asia, Arab countries as well as Central Asia, including those of Xinjiang. Their support for Central Asian Muslims were mainly due to Altaic blood lines, if I am not mistaken, which the Japanese put some value in. Many Japanese became Muslims as a result of this policy of alliance with Muslims and some elderly diplomats and scholars still are from that pre-war period. Problem is the current generation of Japanese have been completely brainwashed by Western media.

So the blind following of the West is not just limited to Chinese, it is also the case with Japanese now since the defeat. Not sure when they will kick the bases out and become independent again. For this to happen, Koreans need more peaceful unification steps and eventual kicking out of bases from the peninsula. The excuse for the US base in Okinawa is a belligerent North Korea.

Building an offline people to people network is the way to go. Internet is a great communication tool, but it is not an effective team building tool.


The past generations are not necessarily an indicator of the present generation.

Today's Japanese are mostly removed from affairs in the Muslim world. We need to present a "working/functioning" Muslim majority country that does not impinge on their religious rights, but also does not conflict with our religious belief.

The Chinese can still be important partners, just a notch below our top 'allies' on the priority list. Their political and diplomatic immaturity, imitation tendency, lack of independent thought and inability to lead from the front are the major failures.

Japan needs to ditch its pacifist constitution, and I think, ASEAN+ can convince Americans on this issue.
 
Let's not act like desert dwellers and start hating on Persians, Shias, Sunnis, Arabs or whatever else. The desert dwellers are low IQ imbeciles, they have nothing to do with that. Let's say, Siraj Ud Dawla was a loser. What did the "winning" Sunni Bangladeshis do in that period to oust the Brits? Nothing significant.

We have nothing to do with the Hindustanis or whatever. Korea and Chinese are related because the Koreans have been vassals of the Chinese for centuries, whereas, for Hindus (no offense), they are 'recently liberated' by the British and provided an unnaturally large land area (at the expense of Bangladesh) and resources to serve the Anglo American purposes. Prior to that, the Hindus (again no offense) have always been slaves.

In ASEAN, Brunei and Singapore have higher GDP per capita than Korea, but lower aggregate GDP. Then, will these two countries "lead" ASEAN? Simply, no.

Likewise, Korea may bask in the limelight so long as their aggregate GDP is higher than Indonesia (possibly for the next 3 to 5 years) but soon after, they will not enjoy that privileged position. And, if North Korea is absorbed in South Korea (which is a different matter altogether), then Korean GDP per capita will plummet further.

Malaysia is multi religious, multi racial, "melting pot" of multi lingual and immigrant peoples, if you like. So their development is naturally hampered when trying to balance so many competing forces, yet Malaysia had often been compared to Korea for its economic development. In other words, there is just nothing special that South Korea alone adds to the 'camp' though Japan is a different player altogether.

The Japanese have also disputes about the Takeshima/Dokdo (whatever you call it) with the Koreans, nothing as such with the ASEAN countries. Blood line? I don't know about Japanese link with Koreans, is that why they subjugated Koreans for so many centuries?

So, in essence, I see that a weak alliance may form in the coming years, but the question of Korean lead will be contested by at least two powers (Japan and Indonesia).

You cannot ignore history and what shia have done and is doing today. I have no hate for them, I just would like to see that they stop their supremacy project with their networked and united Shia Umma to dominate the Sunni communities and countries. This gives us Bangladesh an opportunity to create greater ties with other Sunni countries against this unified Shia threat. I see it as an opportunity. In large scale conflicts, we have to chose sides and we obviously cannot chose Shia, regardless of how stupid you feel the "desert dwellers" are.

Don't get me wrong. Malaysia and Indonesia are brother countries and our relationship with them should be higher priority than any other in South East Asia or Korea.

As for Singapore and other overseas Chinese in South East Asia, no non-Chinese trust them in South East Asia. There are many Indonesian Chinese in this forum, trying to distort Indonesia's image I think. Singapore Chinese are always toeing the Chinese line. So excluding Singapore is a good idea, but not sure how feasible it is, because they are a founding member of ASEAN.

If you look at the previous pages in this and other related threads, Vietnamese gave me the most enthusiastic support. I think they have great potential as a potential ally. Not only did they welcome Bangladesh in ASEAN, they declared to delusional Indians that India can be a friend to ASEAN, but not a member. In Mekong Delta sub region of ASEAN, Bangladesh and Vietnam can be the two leading countries at Eastern and Western end of this region:
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Japan subjugated Koreans for 35 years from 1910 to 1945.
 
Did not know that about Vietnam. I don't hate Vietnam or oppose them. If they are friendly and useful, then I don't have any issues with them, as a general rule.

Well, I am not well versed in Korean history, here they say Korea has been a vassal of the Mongols, Manchus and Japan for much longer.

Korea: History | Infoplease.com

Still, that's none of my concern.


BUT, I strongly disagree with Bangladesh joining ASEAN, this is because, it will open up a new can of worms. Then, ASEAN will border the urine drinking nation's mainland directly. They may naturally be apprehensive of sharing borders with a 1.2 billion mostly illiterate and hungry nation.

So, we can - as a nation - start to look East wards and West wards (overlooking the Hindutva terror infested territories near us) as a nation. Australia is next to Indonesia, but as a nation, they are Europe/America looking.

So called 'Israel' is in the Middle East, but they always classify themselves as a Western country in all Western documents (and they tend to act on Western models of governance, life style etc).

Bangladesh is a Muslim majority country whose natural boundary is much larger (the British robbed most of it and handed it over to their loyal servants for future geopolitical dividends).

We must look at high IQ and 'high capital' endowed nations to our East and "West" (overlooking the Hindutva hub of terror).
 
I share your reservations about the Chinese and your enthusiasm about Japanese. That is the core argument for ASEAN+.

Imperial Japan had a policy of alliance with Muslims of South East Asia, Arab countries as well as Central Asia, including those of Xinjiang. Their support for Central Asian Muslims were mainly due to Altaic blood lines, if I am not mistaken, which the Japanese put some value in. Many Japanese became Muslims as a result of this policy of alliance with Muslims and some elderly diplomats and scholars still are from that pre-war period. Problem is the current generation of Japanese have been completely brainwashed by Western media.

So the blind following of the West is not just limited to Chinese, it is also the case with Japanese now since the defeat. Not sure when they will kick the bases out and become independent again. For this to happen, Koreans need more peaceful unification steps and eventual kicking out of bases from the peninsula. The excuse for the US base in Okinawa is a belligerent North Korea.

Building an offline people to people network is the way to go. Internet is a great communication tool, but it is not an effective team building tool.

I can point out dozens of different lies people have been flinging around on this thread.

@NiceGuy

Vietnam loved Muslims so much, that it invaded Muslim Champa and massacred and genocided almost the entire Cham population who numbered only tens of thousands in their homeland now.

@Banglar Lathial

Japan wont the First Sino Japanese War because of Chinese incompetence, not Japanese strategy or superiority. All the shells used by the Beiyang fleet were filled with sand, cement and junk and bounced off enemy ships. Half the commanders were high on opium and ordered their men to run away when the battle started. The Japanese did not accomplish anything spectacular.

At the Battle of Pyongyang the only compentent commander was the Muslim General Zuo Baogui who led Muslim soldiers against the Japanese. He ordered his men to stand their ground to fight the Japanese and western observers praised his conduct and said that he would have won the Battle if he was in place of his superior officer. He personally led a counterattack on the Japanese until he was killed by Japanese artillery.

The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895: Perceptions, Power, and Primacy - S. C. M. Paine - Google Books

Within the Human Realm: The Poetry of Huang Zunxian, 1848-1905 - J. D. Schmidt - Google Books

In the Boxer Rebellion, many of the officers and soldiers in Dong Fuxiang's Gansu army were Muslims. Two Muslim brothers, Ma Fuxiang and Ma Fulu led their soldiers to defeat the Eight Nation Alliance (Japan, America, Russia, Germany, France, Britain, Italy, Austria Hungary) at Langfang and forced them to flee to Tianjin. Ma Fulu and several relatives who were also officers were then killed at the Battle of Beijing (Peking) when a second expedition made its way in.

????????_www.chinalxnet.com

The Gansu soldiers were also responsible for butchering and ripping a Japanese legation chancellor to little pieces. After the war, only an apology was issued and no one was punished for the assasination.

William Scott Ament and the Boxer Rebellion: Heroism, Hubris and the Ideal ... - Larry Clinton Thompson - Google Books

Ma Fuxiang explained the characteristics of his people to a westerner:

They have not enjoyed the educational and political privileges of the Han chinese," he said to me, "and they are in many respects primitive. But they know the meaning of fidelity, and if I say 'do this, although it means death,' they cheerfully obey."

In the Land of the Laughing Buddha: The Adventures of an American Barbarian ... - Upton Close - Google Books

@kalu_miah

Japan built good reputation among all Muslims EXCEPT Muslims of China. The Japanese were welcomed in Indonesia and Malaysia with open arms but in China they were welcomed with bullets and swords.

The Muslim General Bai Chongxi was vice commander of the General Staff and he fought many battles against the Japanese.

The Japanese advanced on Suiyuan province was halted by Hui Muslims led by Generals Ma Hongbin and his son Ma Dunjing. They defeated them and prevented their advance into Ningxia province.

Frontier Passages: Ethnopolitics and the Rise of Chinese Communism, 1921-1945 - Xiaoyuan Liu - Google Books

The Muslim warlord of Qinghai, Ma Bufang sent a division commanded by another Muslim General Ma Biao to greet the Japanese with bullets and blood in Henan. The division was made out of Hui, Salar (turkic muslims), Dongxiang (Mongol Muslims), Amdo (Qinghai) Tibetans and Han Chinese. They slaughtered the Japanese whenever they won and if cornered they would commit suicide instead of surrender.

??????--?-?-??

Even the Uyghurs did not collaborate with Japan during the war. The separaist leader Isa Alptekin in fact advocated for China in Turkey and Arab countries against Japan.

OBITUARY ISA YUSUF ALPTEKIN - a great mujahid died East Turkistan Leader Isa ifusuf Alptekin died on 17 Dec '95 at Istanbul. ... Feb '96, Isa Yusuf Alptekin, former Secretary of the East Turkistan Government and fighter for the freedom of Sinkiang Koumuntang, died in ... Turkistan. During the Sino-Japanese War he advocated the cause of China and continued his efforts for the autonomy of Sinkiang.

The Muslim World - Google Books

This source mislabels Alptekin as a Hui but its is otherwise correct.

Modern China's Ethnic Frontiers: A Journey to the West - Hsiao-ting Lin - Google Books

Dr. Masud Sabri was another Uyghur on China's State council and Yulbars Khan was in the national military council. Alptekin and Ma Fuliang brought Uyghurs to enlist in China's central military academy during the war with Japan.

Biographical Dictionary of Republican China: Mao-Wu - Google Books

China Magazine - Google Books

LED by Ma Fu- liang, Moslem member of the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission, the second batch of 10 Sinkiang Mohammedan youths have arrived in Chungking after a rigorous trip via India and Rangoon. This brings the total of the arrivals to 29. This brings the total of the arrivals to 29. All will join the Central Military Academy in Free China next fall.
 
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I can point out dozens of different lies people have been flinging around on this thread.

@NiceGuy

Vietnam loved Muslims so much, that it invaded Muslim Champa and massacred and genocided almost the entire Cham population who numbered only tens of thousands in their homeland now.

@Banglar Lathial

Japan wont the First Sino Japanese War because of Chinese incompetence, not Japanese strategy or superiority. All the shells used by the Beiyang fleet were filled with sand, cement and junk and bounced off enemy ships. Half the commanders were high on opium and ordered their men to run away when the battle started. The Japanese did not accomplish anything spectacular.

At the Battle of Pyongyang the only compentent commander was the Muslim General Zuo Baogui who led Muslim soldiers against the Japanese. He ordered his men to stand their ground to fight the Japanese and western observers praised his conduct and said that he would have won the Battle if he was in place of his superior officer. He personally led a counterattack on the Japanese until he was killed by Japanese artillery.

The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895: Perceptions, Power, and Primacy - S. C. M. Paine - Google Books

Within the Human Realm: The Poetry of Huang Zunxian, 1848-1905 - J. D. Schmidt - Google Books

In the Boxer Rebellion, many of the officers and soldiers in Dong Fuxiang's Gansu army were Muslims. Two Muslim brothers, Ma Fuxiang and Ma Fulu led their soldiers to defeat the Eight Nation Alliance (Japan, America, Russia, Germany, France, Britain, Italy, Austria Hungary) at Langfang and forced them to flee to Tianjin. Ma Fulu and several relatives who were also officers were then killed at the Battle of Beijing (Peking) when a second expedition made its way in.

????????_www.chinalxnet.com

The Gansu soldiers were also responsible for butchering and ripping a Japanese legation chancellor to little pieces. After the war, only an apology was issued and no one was punished for the assasination.

William Scott Ament and the Boxer Rebellion: Heroism, Hubris and the Ideal ... - Larry Clinton Thompson - Google Books

Ma Fuxiang explained the characteristics of his people to a westerner:



In the Land of the Laughing Buddha: The Adventures of an American Barbarian ... - Upton Close - Google Books

@kalu_miah

Japan built good reputation among all Muslims EXCEPT Muslims of China. The Japanese were welcomed in Indonesia and Malaysia with open arms but in China they were welcomed with bullets and swords.

The Muslim General Bai Chongxi was vice commander of the General Staff and he fought many battles against the Japanese.

The Japanese advanced on Suiyuan province was halted by Hui Muslims led by Generals Ma Hongbin and his son Ma Dunjing. They defeated them and prevented their advance into Ningxia province.

Frontier Passages: Ethnopolitics and the Rise of Chinese Communism, 1921-1945 - Xiaoyuan Liu - Google Books

The Muslim warlord of Qinghai, Ma Bufang sent a division commanded by another Muslim General Ma Biao to greet the Japanese with bullets and blood in Henan. The division was made out of Hui, Salar (turkic muslims), Dongxiang (Mongol Muslims), Amdo (Qinghai) Tibetans and Han Chinese. They slaughtered the Japanese whenever they won and if cornered they would commit suicide instead of surrender.

??????--?-?-??

Even the Uyghurs did not collaborate with Japan during the war. The separaist leader Isa Alptekin in fact advocated for China in Turkey and Arab countries against Japan.



The Muslim World - Google Books

This source mislabels Alptekin as a Hui but its is otherwise correct.

Modern China's Ethnic Frontiers: A Journey to the West - Hsiao-ting Lin - Google Books

Dr. Masud Sabri was another Uyghur on China's State council and Yulbars Khan was in the national military council. Alptekin and Ma Fuliang brought Uyghurs to enlist in China's central military academy during the war with Japan.

Biographical Dictionary of Republican China: Mao-Wu - Google Books

China Magazine - Google Books




Apart from some isolated incidents, what is the real message of your post? I can't really understand what you are trying to get at.

Even American and so called "Israeli" military TODAY has Muslim (by name) officers.

Hindustan has the highest number of Muslims (without any rights) of any Kafir countries in the world.

I think you are being desperate here.

The fact is, due to East Turkestan/Xinjiang and the discarded ideology of Communism being imposed there, there is reason for a festering sore relation with Muslim world and China. There is no such issue with Japan, at all, which is a rarity because it is one of the few Kafir majority countries that has managed to remain neutral or friendly to most Muslims even under American influence, and American created anti-Muslim hysteria and paranoia.

Not only that, China mobilized its troops in the recent past when war rhetoric in the Korean Peninsula was heating up, showing that North Korea - despite whatever the Chinese say on the internet - is a "red line" for China.

Whereas, Pakistan gets bombed to oblivion - so to speak - by American drones, and NATO supplies pass through Pakistani territory (and American contractors roam freely inside Pakistan), only for China to turn a blind eye to these events.

Iran, is another country, which China has imposed sanctions on. Russian decisions are understandable, because Russia's interests in the Caspian Sea definitely conflict with Iran's. But, why did China agree to impose sanctions on Iran?

Then, China - quite naively - congratulated Hindutva extremist BAL very early though it was installed by Americans, and the Hindustanis merely extracted all the benefits that they could for themselves (not only at the expense of Bangladeshis and Muslims, but also at the expense of the Chinese). That is why BAL has been dragging its feet with all mega projects like one of the longest bridges in the world, one (possibly) strategic deep water sea port, greater trade with China, and other issues that closer partners should have naturally emphasized.


I could go on and on.

The point is, that China is at least a few decades away from becoming a superpower (but possibly only 4 to 5 years away from surpassing American GDP) because its leadership, 'think tanks', military or what have you, always think about "catching up" with some body else, but never about creating a new paradigm all of its own.
 
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