Generation 2.0: Arjun Mk-2

[gogbot]

After smoking the T-90 and highlighting some major issues with that tank, for IA, the weight of Arjun shouldn't be an issue.

But practically thinking, and keeping in mind that battle theaters we have in India, I think the weight should seriously be taken into considerations. What I mean is- I've seen the roads in states like Sikkim, which is connected to India on one side and shares its border with foreign countries on the rest of the three sides. You can't take a tank like this, there. Those roads used to jam even when a Stallion tried to use it. It couldn't get through easily. And then, this tank would be impossible to deploy in such terrains.

I would rather consider developing the Tank-Ex. It suits our requirements in every form. Its simple where it needs to be(the hull and the driving system) and up-to-date at other places(the turret of the Arjun). Also they have cared to give a little angle to its turret which is definitely a step in the right direction. Also, it can be very successful in the International Market, even if it is priced a bit higher than the rest, because of India's reputation.

Please give your opinions about my perspective of analyzing this issue.....

Unnecessary , we have a lot of T-90 Tanks , they can take station in the remote places where the Arjun may have problems , this is a mid term fix , whilst Logistic can be upgraded in the mean time.

Tank_EX never worked properly , the T-71 chassis was too weak to sustain the force for the Arjun turret when it fired
The tank would shake violently for every round fired, It's a waste of time trying to merge them together.

Better we reduce out T-72 numbers. get more Arjuns , upgrade a few T-72's maybe like 300-500 and then maintain our current fleet of T-90's .

That would be ideal.

Reducing the number of T-72 should be primary concern

 

[qwerrty]

Generation 2.0: Arjun Mk-2 idrw.org

how long are you guys planing to use that picture of a Japanese tank as arjun mk2 ??

japan TK-X mbt
*ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffNiosiPlxY

 

[gogbot]

how long are you guys planing to use that picture of a Japanese tank as arjun mk2 ??

Our only other option is this



But realistic speaking that picture may be very close to the truth.

Since the Arjun look like the Leopard 2A4

same is true for the Japanese Type 90

it would make sense that the MKII would look like the Leopard 2A5

and this is the JAp tank

this is further strengthened by the fact that that the Arjun 2 will feature NERA armour on top of its regular armour and super structure.
It may very well look like that , it may not , either way at least for it makes decent fan art we art we can look at to represent the Arjun 2

 

[archangel]

Unnecessary , we have a lot of T-90 Tanks , they can take station in the remote places where the Arjun may have problems , this is a mid term fix , whilst Logistic can be upgraded in the mean time.

Tank_EX never worked properly , the T-71 chassis was too weak to sustain the force for the Arjun turret when it fired
The tank would shake violently for every round fired, It's a waste of time trying to merge them together.

Better we reduce out T-72 numbers. get more Arjuns , upgrade a few T-72's maybe like 300-500 and then maintain our current fleet of T-90's .

That would be ideal.

Reducing the number of T-72 should be primary concern

That should definitely be our primary objective because T-72 tank technology is now obsolete.

And about the Tank-Ex thing- I've clearly written about development. Even the Arjun wasn't perfect at the beginning. So, is this. Therefore, it requires a bit of being looked into. You as well as I admit the fact that Arjun is far better than T-90, no doubt it exceeds T-72. This concept could help us build those light tanks in large numbers and keep the Arjuns limited for Elite units as is the case with Type 99. Do you want the Arjun to be wasted by using it against cheap, low-grade tanks like the Type-96, 98 and Al-Khalid???? I think it has higher purposes.

The Tank-Ex, as I've mentioned earlier, can also help us gain some money.

I think you are getting it wrong about me that I'm against this tank. this has never happened and never will. I've always supported indigenous products I shall always promote it.

I think you are looking at all this with a very limited perspective. You are talking about the Tanks(Western like the Leopard and M1A2) which were designed in 80s. The current development, I don't know if you are aware of them or not, but it is a global phenomena know, is the development of Air-Liftable Tanks by the major countries. Even if not Air-Liftable, they are atleast making attempts to reduce their weights by any method possible. If we are thinking of this tank(the Arjun Mk-2) we shouldn't look at what they did 30yrs ago but should look into the future and establish a global standard and a landmark in tank designing rather than following their old measures of building a tank.

About the propulsion system- I wasn't humiliating or challenging you but was just inquisitive to know about your source. What I've mentioned is a step into the future and was a personal preference over the Turbine Engines. So you don't need to be so aggressive on such issues. After all, we belong to the same nation and we should learn to take suggestions and to correct the mistakes of others. And when its about country-men, I mean no offence never-ever, of any sort.

The German tanks, that I used to state my point was just a reference and I've got evidence to prove my point and no offence to you Mr. Gogbot and the Germans also. And I've also mentioned their technological advancements and innovations and their good combination of Mobility, Firepower and Armour. But, after all these things, all I can say is it was complex. And rate of manufacturing of Arjuns isn't very good at just 65 in 16 years averaging ~4 a year(Keeping in mind all the reluctance of the Indian Army for the project).

May you should take a look at this video-

And I don't mean any kind of offence. Just check it out.

 

[shaktiman2010]

After smoking the T-90 and highlighting some major issues with that tank, for IA, the weight of Arjun shouldn't be an issue.

But practically thinking, and keeping in mind that battle theaters we have in India, I think the weight should seriously be taken into considerations. What I mean is- I've seen the roads in states like Sikkim, which is connected to India on one side and shares its border with foreign countries on the rest of the three sides. You can't take a tank like this, there. Those roads used to jam even when a Stallion tried to use it. It couldn't get through easily. And then, this tank would be impossible to deploy in such terrains.

I would rather consider developing the Tank-Ex. It suits our requirements in every form. Its simple where it needs to be(the hull and the driving system) and up-to-date at other places(the turret of the Arjun). Also they have cared to give a little angle to its turret which is definitely a step in the right direction. Also, it can be very successful in the International Market, even if it is priced a bit higher than the rest, because of India's reputation.

Please give your opinions about my perspective of analyzing this issue.....

It would be waste of money and time to do JV with Russia. India has been importing since 4 decades from Russia and russia refused to sell us Cryogenic technology. But they sold same to China.

So, why one should committ same mistake again of trusting Russians on defense JV?

Never.

Akash project was successful because DRDO did it on its own. It took time but now we have the core technology which we can easily update with 3 to 5 years. No more longer waits.

Agni-I took LONG time to develop because it was first system. But Agni-II, III took shorter development times. Agni-V will merely take 4 years to complete!!

So, moral of story is, dump the tendency to run behind Russian maai-bap and believe in yourselves. We can do it.

Weight of Arjun was never an issue. It was corruption scandal in Indian Army which delayed and screwed Arjun project induction. The trials have proved that Arjun is much better tank than T-90 junk which even had faulty night-vision sights which caused India billions of $ repair work on T-90.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Agree with Gogbat.

Army should focus on reducing Russian fat(T-72) and should induct more Arjuns. Russians systems are becoming an expensive liability.

Much of Army budget has been wasted on fixing faulty T-90 night vision sights and repair work.

Same budget could have been used sensibly in funding next-generation research in Indian universities and labs. Why Indian army is so worried about funding research in Russian labs? Why not Indian labs?

Indian army is full of morons. No doubt. T-90 is biggest blunder in Indian army history and now its costing us a lot. India would have never needed T-90 only if Indian army had given timely support(moral + fundings) to Arjun project on time.

But, alas! Rather they did everything to kill the Arjun project by even deriding Indian scientists in public. Shame on these vultures in Indian army. Aek thoo.

IA and IAF was planning to do same thing with Akash missile systems but Antony made sure that didn't happen. Still he has long way to go, IAF still prefers Israeli imports to anything Indians make.

 

[flanker143]

Arjun smoked t 90 and still they r going for t 90 dat explains every thing, HEIGHT of corruption !!!!!!

 

[flanker143]

they want a futuristic tank and they satisfy themselves by dumping arjun an taking t 90 which is far less futuristic than arjun and even lows on performance factor !!!!!!!! thanks to army top brass !!!

 

[gogbot]

And about the Tank-Ex thing- I've clearly written about development. Even the Arjun wasn't perfect at the beginning. So, is this. Therefore, it requires a bit of being looked into. You as well as I admit the fact that Arjun is far better than T-90, no doubt it exceeds T-72. This concept could help us build those light tanks in large numbers and keep the Arjuns limited for Elite units as is the case with Type 99. Do you want the Arjun to be wasted by using it against cheap, low-grade tanks like the Type-96, 98 and Al-Khalid???? I think it has higher purposes.

???

I think you have the concept all wrong mate.

TAnk-EX was a upgrade proposition for the T-72 fleet.
By default it was the economic alternative , but it is pointless . The T-72 chassis is to old and to small it compromises the tank and turret.

Tank-Ex is also not that light , it's point less to have the Tank_EX when we have more than 1000 T-90 . What we need are more than 3000 Arjuns.

We can mass produce Arjun easily , the idea that they are expensive or take time to build is false. The small orders have mean small production line.

And if i were you i would not call the Type-96, 98 and Al-Khalid low grade.

They are in fact respectable tanks in their own rights.

We need tank's like the Arjun to counter them and give our soldiers the best chance.

either way the biggest killer of enemy tanks will be the NAG missile and LCH , not the Arjun MBT

The Tank-Ex, as I've mentioned earlier, can also help us gain some money.

I think you are getting it wrong about me that I'm against this tank. this has never happened and never will. I've always supported indigenous products I shall always promote it.

We dont need money and i don't see how taking an obsolete chassis and putting a state of the art Arjun turret which it can't even support on top it can help us make money

Tank-EX is waste of resources , even if we manage to make it work , we would be much better of getting new T-90's or Arjuns

I think you are looking at all this with a very limited perspective. You are talking about the Tanks(Western like the Leopard and M1A2) which were designed in 80s. The current development, I don't know if you are aware of them or not, but it is a global phenomena know, is the development of Air-Liftable Tanks by the major countries. Even if not Air-Liftable, they are atleast making attempts to reduce their weights by any method possible. If we are thinking of this tank(the Arjun Mk-2) we shouldn't look at what they did 30yrs ago but should look into the future and establish a global standard and a landmark in tank designing rather than following their old measures of building a tank.

Are any of those air lift tanks main battle tanks ?

There are always tanks for that purpose , but they don't have to be the primary tank of the forces.

and also if your so interesting in actually looking at the weight see your self.

http://img210.imageshack.us/f/captafjurecopy.png/[/IMG

[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S6q74nrz3iI/AAAAAAAAA88/yb6kPurK7dE/s1600/P5200036.JPG]

Arjun is in fact lighter than many of its contemporary tanks.

it 5 tn's lighter than Israile , American and British tanks

and only 3-4 tons heavier than German(Leopard 2A4, The Leopard 2A6 actually weights 62.2 tonnes) And French tanks.

Here is size comparison between the Arjun and the Leopard 2A4

yet only 4 tonnes heavier.

There are weight reduction attempts made on the Arjun , but simple put you can't squeeze everything you want into one armoured machine and expect it to be a feather , It's going to get heavy and heavier the tank the harder the challenge.

Also keep in mind Arjun is 4 man crew tank . Many of the lighter tanks out there like the T-90 , work with 3 man crew's

And behind all the hocus pocus about the weight issue , the Chinese Type 99 , pride China and be default Pakistan , also now weigh's 58 tonne's and it's weight has also increased over time

The New Future Russian tank is a 60 tonne beast.

Most good tanks around the world are in the 50-70 tonne range.

MBT weight will at least 42 tonne's .

I dare you to find me a worlds best tank that is lighter.

About the propulsion system- I wasn't humiliating or challenging you but was just inquisitive to know about your source. What I've mentioned is a step into the future and was a personal preference over the Turbine Engines. So you don't need to be so aggressive on such issues. After all, we belong to the same nation and we should learn to take suggestions and to correct the mistakes of others. And when its about country-men, I mean no offence never-ever, of any sort.

fair enough , i did get the wrong impression

And rate of manufacturing of Arjuns isn't very good at just 65 in 16 years averaging ~4 a year(Keeping in mind all the reluctance of the Indian Army for the project).

Seriously 16 years , where did that come from.
actually forget it , i am just going to tell you the actual rate of production.

The production presently can produce about one Arjun Tank regiment (62 tanks) a year.

This is with one production line
One more can be set up if more ordered are given

Making it 124 tanks a year.

with a night shift you can at least double that figure.

Currently Arjun only costs slightly more than the T-90 , with more orders the price can be reduced.

The German tanks, that I used to state my point was just a reference and I've got evidence to prove my point and no offence to you Mr. Gogbot and the Germans also. And I've also mentioned their technological advancements and innovations and their good combination of Mobility, Firepower and Armour. But, after all these things, all I can say is it was complex.

May you should take a look at this video-
YouTube - Greatest Ever Tanks - Panther Tank (8)

And I don't mean any kind of offence. Just check it out.

Its not as simple as that video portrays it ,

German tanks were complicated and took time to build.

But they were nearly unrivalled on the battlefield , with only a few soviet tanks actually showing any real resistance. The Germans had the Panzer and the Tiger and towards the end the King Tiger. In the end it took the combined might of the soviet and allied forces , years of bombing missions which reduced Germany to near rubble , chronic shortage of supplies , and an idiot leader(had Rommel managed to overthrow Hitler we would be living in very different world, not that i would prefer said world.) to bring down Germany.

That alone will tell you of the quality of German war machines

 

[gogbot]

Arjun smoked t 90 and still they r going for t 90 dat explains every thing, HEIGHT of corruption !!!!!!

It is undeniable that there was corruption involved but it is to late to now.

Keep in mind that Whole IA is not corrupt but elements did conspire to take down the tank. They failed , however

Simply put Arjun proved it self to late. Now we have to wait for IA to set up logistics and slowly induct Arjun , a Mass order cannot take place as of yet. But not MoD has sanctioned the Arjun MKII , there is a very good future for the tank.

they want a futuristic tank and they satisfy themselves by dumping arjun an taking t 90 which is far less futuristic than arjun and even lows on performance factor !!!!!!!! thanks to army top brass !!!

FMBT requirement is very real , it planning for future system in advance , but it has nothing to do with the Arjun.

IT is a totally brand new tank developed in India , there is even hype about Private sector involvement in this project.

However FMBT is just in planning stages , and that is the point , MoD has realised that Weapons requirements are often submitted and Indian firms not given enough time to respond

FMBT requirement is an Attempt to correct that , with very advanced planning for the project. The actual prototype or tank is at least 10 years away .

In fact requirements are not even ready yet , nor has a developer been chooses.

Arjun will serve the forced alongside the T-90 in the mid term , what have to ensure is getting as many Arjuns as possible however

 

[flanker143]

FMBT requirement is very real , it planning for future system in advance , but it has nothing to do with the Arjun.

IT is a totally brand new tank developed in India , there is even hype about Private sector involvement in this project.

However FMBT is just in planning stages , and that is the point , MoD has realised that Weapons requirements are often submitted and Indian firms not given enough time to respond

FMBT requirement is an Attempt to correct that , with very advanced planning for the project. The actual prototype or tank is at least 10 years away .

In fact requirements are not even ready yet , nor has a developer been chooses.

Arjun will serve the forced alongside the T-90 in the mid term , what have to ensure is getting as many Arjuns as possible however

i didn't said the whole army is corrupted , but a number of big player are , a bitter fact that is ain't deniable, but i still don't get why they r killing arjun for weaker tank that has lesser capabilities saying they want a fmbt , fmbt project has nothing to do with arjun or t 90, as i said t90 is less futuristic and capable , an order of 248 tanks is humiliation for a tank like arjun ,

what i think is dat some army officials have already taken bribes for making the govt go for 1600 t90s and now they cant back-off, earlier they had the cover of arjun delay and unsatisfactory performance , but now they have lost it too when arjun proofed itz mattle against t 90s in the latest face-off,

so now they have resorted to pull up fmbt issue , why wasn't this is issue pulled up when t 90s were being imported , fmbt issue is just an coverup to protect their shameless faces from coming out to ppl and media , to protect themselves from being kicked out of army and frm getting behind bars for playing with national security and soldier's lives !!!! SHAME ON THOSE OFFICIALS !!!!!!

 

[archangel]

Enough of battle of words. Its pointless to extend this issue any further because the majority is in support of retaining the Arjun's present characteristics.

There is just one last thing I want to mention- All this time, i never mentioned about Russia or buying Russian Tanks. We have become more capable over-time. All I wished to see was a tank that was simple but sophisticated, light but capable, advanced but economical( all these things are contrasting, though not impossible). The Tank-Ex definitely wasn't the right Tank and it might never be the right one but the concept, to me, seems to be a step in the right direction(Exclusively personal opinion. So, no comments or replies........ please).

About the chinese and pakistani tanks, I meant the class difference and nothing else{cost-effectiveness as well-(cheap as we say in common use)}.

So guys, what are your opinions about the possibilities and the utilities of having an autoloader aboard the the Arjun 2.0?????????

 

[archangel]

@gogbot-"I think you have the concept all wrong mate."

Please don't make such comments or remarks, to me. Each individual's idea is his own and should not be demoralized, if not respected. I expressed what I think and you countered it with your own idea. I may have replied or quoted on your ideas , but I haven't discouraged your idea. I've just defended my own.

If you are a senior member, try to keep your psychological maturity upto that standard. Don't let it fall below the standard of a senior.

With regards and all the respect for a senior member,
Archangel.

{And sorry to all for diverting this thread}

 

[kaku]

Guys why the weight is not an issue. At war time this weight may harm us seveorly.

Indian army is full of morons. No doubt. T-90 is biggest blunder in Indian army history and now its costing us a lot. India would have never needed T-90 only if Indian army had given timely support(moral + fundings) to Arjun project on time.

And what you taking about that buying T 90 is a blunder . At year 2001(after the 3 years of POKHRAN) all our tanks get ageing and not useful for modern warfare. No one giving us tank because US sanction on us. Leave that we can bought tank from our allied european nations. And there is no hope that arjun get ready by the time. So, give me sugestion that at this time what the govt. do.

 

[kaku]

i didn't said the whole army is corrupted , but a number of big player are , a bitter fact that is ain't deniable, but i still don't get why they r killing arjun for weaker tank that has lesser capabilities saying they want a fmbt , fmbt project has nothing to do with arjun or t 90, as i said t90 is less futuristic and capable , an order of 248 tanks is humiliation for a tank like arjun ,

what i think is dat some army officials have already taken bribes for making the govt go for 1600 t90s and now they cant back-off, earlier they had the cover of arjun delay and unsatisfactory performance , but now they have lost it too when arjun proofed itz mattle against t 90s in the latest face-off,

so now they have resorted to pull up fmbt issue , why wasn't this is issue pulled up when t 90s were being imported , fmbt issue is just an coverup to protect their shameless faces from coming out to ppl and media , to protect themselves from being kicked out of army and frm getting behind bars for playing with national security and soldier's lives !!!! SHAME ON THOSE OFFICIALS !!!!!!

Answer my question.

What the IA do of large quantity of Arjun(Around 1600). IA cannot transport him so easily at short notice of war. This tank has not ability take part in mountain area war because of its weight And t 90 has very less weight(around 49 ton) and can tranport easily.





My suggestion is that Arjun is best tank in world by its feature but for india it is not useful because of indians MOUNTAINS BORDER. Around 450 arjun is good quantity.