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Generation 2.0: Arjun Mk-2

IA Army should order more Arjun Mk-1 tank instead of upgrading T-72 tanks which are almost completed their life cycle. Upgraded T-72 tank cost is almost near 75% cost of new Arjun tank.

Although Arjun is little havier than T-90 but instead of talking abt the weight problem IA should enhance the transporation issues or logistics issues which are there in moving heavy weapon system to the borders. When more nos of Arjun will be used by IA, their inputs will help DRDO to rectify and enhance the capabilities in Arjun Mk-II.

Hi Indian-Devil, it seems that you have detailed figures about the upgrade costs of T-72 tanks, can you provide some links, or quotes?

Does anybody knows how much the Tank EX upgrade from DRDO should have costed?
 
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mr. rocketsingh you heard wrong. this was not light weight tank, this was light wt artilary which IA buying from US.

rocketsingh is not wrong, we are buying light weight tanks. IA already floated tender for 300 of this.
 
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why they r increasing the weight army already told that weight is the major problem of the arjun tank.

You can't have reduction in weight .

Look at tanks around the world , their weight only goes up as more upgraded version are developed.

What ever weight reduction the Arjun has will only be detrimental to the tank. And also i highly doubt how substantial it may be .

Arjun's weight will always be in different weight class to what IA wants.

IA will just have to get used to operating a tank in this weight class , like they did with the Centurion in the past.


FMBT may also be in a similar weight class , IA has asked for so many features and so little weight.

Same goes T-95 , if that ever get's of the ground it will be a 60tonne tank. It is also rumoured to have been cancelled

IF IA wants to have a medium weight tank , i think it will have limited options in the future.

Currently , IA have two tanks under 50tonne.

T-72 and T-90

Pakistan has the T-84 and MBT-2000 which are in the same weight class.

China also has it's older tank's in the same class.

Naturally we can't acquire any tanks from them

Other tanks around the world that are in the same weight class are :

M-95 Degman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

M-84AS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PT-91 Twardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Most other tanks are in the same weight class as the Arjun , Which sadly means that the IA cannot possible accommodate a tank of such heavy weight.

May be in Future we can try to import this proposed US tank.


Type-10 MBT is also there


May be we can work with Japan on weight reduction on out tank , but it will require major re-design work.

At 60-62 tonnes we have the Arjun , To get to weight IA want there needs to be a minimum reduction of at least 18tonnes.

It is simple easier and quicker to make a completely new tank.
 
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I AM SAYING WHAT WE DO THE LARGE QUANTITY OF THIS TANK

place the rest in desert regions !!!

The arjun MBT weigt problem is not an issue because it is for offensive mission not for defensive. So, the IA not buying this tank in large quantity. For defensive mission IA buying T 90 'BHISHMA'.

when u got better blts's ,special rail coaches,and (i heard new 1500 hp engine) then i think weight is not a big issue !!
 
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place the rest in desert regions !!!

You want the mass production of this tank.-True
This means you want to see around 1600 tanks in IA.

You place it the 2 regiments on LAC.

And rest you want to place in desert.

What the IA do of this tank of such large quantity in Thar.
 
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According to me, in the present day world, the rate of development is so fast & so good that it would be a foolish step to acquire anything in large numbers.

So, what do we need to do????? Maintain uniformity and Keep evolving. It is like, we select a common chassis with enough flexibility to handle most of the general functions like that of a tank, an APC, an IFV, a tank killer, a mobile radar, an AA gun platform etc. Then, specialize each of the platforms to the requirements for that role and acquire each in quantities of ~300-350 may be. Then, in a stepwise manner, evolve a concept or an equipment, apply to it existing units and keep them evolving and upgrading. One of the advantages can be that nothing would be easily wasted.

For e.g., we use for, say 30 yrs, a platform as a tank. Then instead of scrapping them off altogether or spending billions in upgrading them to current standards(of that time) and then gradually getting rid of them, we can upgrade that platform to a radar unit or to a mobile tent unit and make new and up-to-date tanks altogether. This can reduce life cycle costs, we can reduce the expertise required for handling each platform, cost of parts, training of soldiers, diversity of logistics, and we can also reduce the limitation of an equipment upto just a single region or action.

It seems a if Indian Armed Force have already recognized this and hence, we can see a number of platforms evolving on a BMP-chassis and this is a good step.

I'm having a feeling that the Arjun Mk-2 might be the last of the era of individuality or who knows, that it might even be the first one of the era of commonality.

Give your opinions.
 
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According to me, in the present day world, the rate of development is so fast & so good that it would be a foolish step to acquire anything in large numbers.

So, what do we need to do????? Maintain uniformity and Keep evolving. It is like, we select a common chassis with enough flexibility to handle most of the general functions like that of a tank, an APC, an IFV, a tank killer, a mobile radar, an AA gun platform etc. Then, specialize each of the platforms to the requirements for that role and acquire each in quantities of ~300-350 may be. Then, in a stepwise manner, evolve a concept or an equipment, apply to it existing units and keep them evolving and upgrading. One of the advantages can be that nothing would be easily wasted.

For e.g., we use for, say 30 yrs, a platform as a tank. Then instead of scrapping them off altogether or spending billions in upgrading them to current standards(of that time) and then gradually getting rid of them, we can upgrade that platform to a radar unit or to a mobile tent unit and make new and up-to-date tanks altogether. This can reduce life cycle costs, we can reduce the expertise required for handling each platform, cost of parts, training of soldiers, diversity of logistics, and we can also reduce the limitation of an equipment upto just a single region or action.

It seems a if Indian Armed Force have already recognized this and hence, we can see a number of platforms evolving on a BMP-chassis and this is a good step.

I'm having a feeling that the Arjun Mk-2 might be the last of the era of individuality or who knows, that it might even be the first one of the era of commonality.

Give your opinions.








mr. archangel quantity has its own importance. if a war broke out than IA has also need quantity. Advancement of a tank is not sufficient. As the india is under threat from china which has quantity. I saw a program on DISCOVERY(GREATEST EVER) in which experts are saying in ww2 if nazi focus on quantity not on tech then the history change its way. At 1942 panther is the best tank in world but still it defeated from a simple tech tank m4 sherman. because americans had the quantity of this tank.


panther
power 700 hp
wt 45 ton
top speed 46 kmph



m4 sherman
power 400 hp
wt 30 ton
top speed 34 kmph
 
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You want the mass production of this tank.-True
This means you want to see around 1600 tanks in IA.

You place it the 2 regiments on LAC.

And rest you want to place in desert.

What the IA do of this tank of such large quantity in Thar.

the same they are doing with the t72 s !!!!
i hope u don't disagree with me this time !!!!! india should progressively phase out those uncles .... poor things cant even see in night properly (except the ones with upgrades )

now plz dont debate on their night vision , i know they can see/fight in night but not as good as arjun...

india should stop spending oodles of money on upgrades on old tanks and rather buy new ones !!!

mr. archangel quantity has its own importance. if a war broke out than IA has also need quantity. Advancement of a tank is not sufficient. As the india is under threat from china which has quantity. I saw a program on DISCOVERY(GREATEST EVER) in which experts are saying in ww2 if nazi focus on quantity not on tech then the history change its way. At 1942 panther is the best tank in world but still it defeated from a simple tech tank m4 sherman. because americans had the quantity of this tank.


panther
power 700 hp
wt 45 ton
top speed 46 kmph



m4 sherman
power 400 hp
wt 30 ton
top speed 34 kmph

i truly agree with u......

but when u got 30bil+ def budget no.s should not be a problem

I saw a program on DISCOVERY(GREATEST EVER) in which experts are saying in ww2 if nazi focus on quantity not on tech then the history change its way. At 1942 panther is the best tank in world but still it defeated from a simple tech tank m4 sherman. because americans had the quantity of this tank

i never said to induct arjuns in small no.s ...... i am crying for mass production ie a large no. of tanks....... in order to have qualitative and quantitative advantage over the enemy in case of war !!!!!!
 
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Mr. flanker, i think you didn't understand my view. i m not saying that arjun is not a good tank. At this time, this tank is best in world. But the IA not needed this tank in quantity.

My view is that TANK EX should prepare as tech. demonstrator. And Tank EX mk 2 should make it according to the IA.

If in future Arjun mk 2 has ERA Armour, good engine(2000 hp), good range(550 km), and also autoloder. Then the wt is no more a issue.
 
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mr. archangel quantity has its own importance. if a war broke out than IA has also need quantity. Advancement of a tank is not sufficient. As the india is under threat from china which has quantity. I saw a program on DISCOVERY(GREATEST EVER) in which experts are saying in ww2 if nazi focus on quantity not on tech then the history change its way. At 1942 panther is the best tank in world but still it defeated from a simple tech tank m4 sherman. because americans had the quantity of this tank.


panther
power 700 hp
wt 45 ton
top speed 46 kmph



m4 sherman
power 400 hp
wt 30 ton
top speed 34 kmph

your facts are a little mixed up.

German tanks were feared for reason.
fact was their armour was was in-penetrable to all allied tanks.
Both the Panther and Tiger tanks , could stop whole allied or soviet advances.

Their downfall came form the skies , when allies and soviet fighter bombers made short work of German tank formations.

On top of that the German tanks had a added handicap of having chronic shortage on fuel , towards the end, the tanks were left on the side of the road because there simply rant out of fuel.

Also the soviet and Allied air wings , had already decimated all German Industrial capacity at this point. Factories , refiner'y and power stations all gone.This was part of the real reason for the sever shortage e of German tanks

German tanks may have been complicated and took time to build.

But they were nearly unrivalled on the battlefield , with only a few soviet tanks actually showing any real resistance. The Germans had the Panthr and the Tiger and towards the end the King Tiger. In the end it took the combined might of the soviet and allied forces , years of bombing missions which reduced Germany to near rubble , chronic shortage of supplies , and an idiot leader(had Rommel managed to overthrow Hitler we would be living in very different world, not that i would prefer said world.) to bring down Germany.

That alone will tell you of the quality of German war machines

Despite all this at the end of the war it was determined that given the limited number of German tanks , it was determined for the Germans to have wont the tank war , each German tank had to take out 24 allied tanks.

Actual Ratio was for every 1 German tank it was 21 allied tanks.

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And for crying out loud , this is not a Quality versus Quantity argument.

At the end of the day quality is supposed to cost more
and quantity cost less.
But Quality is also supposed to be superior to Quantity.

That is the basic principle behind that argument.

Arjun costs just as much , if not less then the T-90. We can actually have more Arjuns if we wanted.

On top of that the T-90 is an imported tank , we can only have as much as buy.

But we can build as many Arjuns as we can afford.


We are actually importing a tank that costs more and is as good, if not inferior to a tank that we our selves have built in India ,
all because Arjun happens to be 5 years late and T-90 is 10 tonne's lighter .

That is the reality of the Situation , there is nothing stopping us from getting more Arjuns , nothing is making the Arjun more difficult to make.

I am not saying it makes all the sense in the world , but that is the Situation, deal with it.


The Arjun production presently can produce about one Arjun Tank regiment (62 tanks) a year.

This is with one production line
One more can be set up if more ordered are given

Making it 124 tanks a year.

with a night shift you can at least double that figure.

Currently Arjun only costs slightly more than the T-90 , with more orders the price can be reduced.
 
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Mr. flanker, i think you didn't understand my view. i m not saying that arjun is not a good tank. At this time, this tank is best in world. But the IA not needed this tank in quantity.

My view is that TANK EX should prepare as tech. demonstrator. And Tank EX mk 2 should make it according to the IA.

If in future Arjun mk 2 has ERA Armour, good engine(2000 hp), good range(550 km), and also autoloder. Then the wt is no more a issue.

You are exactly trying to say what I've said in the previous pages(Have you gone through them???? You would then understand me better.) Tank-Ex seems to be the best of both worlds. Its got a reliable chassis from the T-72s and the new-age up-to-date turret and FCS, BMS etc. from Arjun.

We definitely need Arjun in India in not less than ~500-600 in no. but it is very region specific(the Thar) because it was made to counter the then planned M1 Abrams acquisition from America by pakistan. But now there is no such problem as the T-90s India possess now(with the upgradation) can easily handle Al-Khalids and Type 96s and Type 98s. Afterall , Russia isn't so dumb that isn't quite developing new tanks to counter China .Because it knows its T-90s can handle the chinese tanks and so can we with our upgraded ones. But we can't rely lifelong on Russians for providing our military arsenal requirements.

Thus, it is important to acquire Arjun but not in nos. of 1500 and 2000. We may do it if we can somehow move 10-15 yrs ahead of the current generation. Or else it is useless because Arjun is a 1980s design and the Tanks around the world are changing now. Now, tanks are getting lighter, shedding crews, adding new-age electronic countermeasures and also there have been attempts to change to better calibres. So, to get an advantage, we have to think 20-yrs ahead of today rather than copying or developing the techs of 1980s and 90s. And at the same time buy Arjuns to support the future tank projects and to prove the world that India's first attempt to make an indigenous tank didn't go in vain.

Also, I intend to know the present situation of Abhay ICV with a proper source if available.
 
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My view is that TANK EX should prepare as tech. demonstrator. And Tank EX mk 2 should make it according to the IA.

you do realise the TAnk-Ex is just an upgrade.

We are tanking the old , the very old chassis of the T-72 , we are not making new Chassis , these are the T-72 we already have , we are tossing the turret and sticking the Arjun turret on top.

there is no Tank-EX mkII.

It was a decent idea for upgrades that never worked.

You don't make new tanks by taking half of an old tank and half of a new one and mixing them together. And you certainly don't MkII of those upgraded models.

They have limited life and they will be tossed out.

If in future Arjun mk 2 has ERA Armour, good engine(2000 hp), good range(550 km), and also autoloder. Then the wt is no more a issue.

???

How , is making the tank heavier , get rid of the weight issue ?
the point was they want a light lighter tank. Making it heavier is not going to solve that issue.

Either IA learns to live with it , Like many other armies arround the world have.

Or

DRDO or some one else makes them a lighter tank with all the hundreds of gadgets IA wants Squeezed into them.
 
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your facts are a little mixed up.

German tanks were feared for reason.
fact was their armour was was in-penetrable to all allied tanks.
Both the Panther and Tiger tanks , could stop whole allied or soviet advances.

Their downfall came form the skies , when allies and soviet fighter bombers made short work of German tank formations.

On top of that the German tanks had a added handicap of having chronic shortage on fuel , towards the end, the tanks were left on the side of the road because there simply rant out of fuel.

Also the soviet and Allied air wings , had already decimated all German Industrial capacity at this point. Factories , refiner'y and power stations all gone.This was part of the real reason for the sever shortage e of German tanks

German tanks may have been complicated and took time to build.

But they were nearly unrivalled on the battlefield , with only a few soviet tanks actually showing any real resistance. The Germans had the Panthr and the Tiger and towards the end the King Tiger. In the end it took the combined might of the soviet and allied forces , years of bombing missions which reduced Germany to near rubble , chronic shortage of supplies , and an idiot leader(had Rommel managed to overthrow Hitler we would be living in very different world, not that i would prefer said world.) to bring down Germany.

That alone will tell you of the quality of German war machines

Despite all this at the end of the war it was determined that given the limited number of German tanks , it was determined for the Germans to have wont the tank war , each German tank had to take out 24 allied tanks.

Actual Ratio was for every 1 German tank it was 21 allied tanks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And for crying out loud , this is not a Quality versus Quantity argument.

At the end of the day quality is supposed to cost more
and quantity cost less.
But Quality is also supposed to be superior to Quantity.

That is the basic principle behind that argument.

Arjun costs just as much , if not less then the T-90. We can actually have more Arjuns if we wanted.

On top of that the T-90 is an imported tank , we can only have as much as buy.

But we can build as many Arjuns as we can afford.


We are actually importing a tank that costs more and is as good, if not inferior to a tank that we our selves have built in India ,
all because Arjun happens to be 5 years late and T-90 is 10 tonne's lighter .

That is the reality of the Situation , there is nothing stopping us from getting more Arjuns , nothing is making the Arjun more difficult to make.

I am not saying it makes all the sense in the world , but that is the Situation, deal with it.


The Arjun production presently can produce about one Arjun Tank regiment (62 tanks) a year.

This is with one production line
One more can be set up if more ordered are given

Making it 124 tanks a year.

with a night shift you can at least double that figure.

Currently Arjun only costs slightly more than the T-90 , with more orders the price can be reduced.


I support your point and also quality is superior than quantity.

But we also needed quantity to tackle dragons.
 
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Mr. flanker, i think you didn't understand my view. i m not saying that arjun is not a good tank. At this time, this tank is best in world. But the IA not needed this tank in quantity.

when 2000 tanks are nearing the end of their service life.... i seriously feel the need of a good tank that too in large no. in order to replace those t 72s

anyways any update to the tank-ex ???

, it cud be a gud upgrade option if army gives it a nod ..... but i heard they rejected it !!!

i seriously feel army doesn't want arjun or 'any part of it in their force' .......

they are suffering from arjuno-phobia ...

leaving just one option/hope .... arjun mk2

seriously expecting alot from mk2....

having an autoloader is better than a manual loader !!! how come when they give same rate of fire .. and weapon selection is easier with a manual loader !!!
 
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