GB should be given province status

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Even if it is 100 years old it does not matter. The deal was that you had a choice between India and Pakistan. There were states that wanted independence but they never got, so why should Kashmir get special treatment?

How does the blame lie with Pakistan entirely?
Pakistan was a new nation with no military and very little land, but was built on the notion of a homeland for Muslims of the subcontinent. Kashmir is a natural part of that homeland so should have gone to Pakistan. India, despite her enormous size has an even more enormous greed and decided to cause this problem.
And keep in mind, it is the Kashmirsis on the Indian side that are being tortured to death, not the Pakistani side.

1947 Invasion of Kashmir, which was conducted by Pakistani-backed tribal invaders is how the blame lies at Pakistan's door. States were given a date (which, if my memory serves right now, was somewhere in the middle of August), to choose whether they wished to secede to India or Pakistan, Kashmir chose neither and as that time-frame ended, it was de-facto independent.

I do accept the fact that Kashmiris on the Indian Side are treated more like cattle than people, and it's why I care for the well-being of the Pakistani state, but all aside, you cannot justify Pakistan's claim to Kashmir on the basis of atrocities and human rights violations. Political suppression still occurs in AJK/GB, and that is a fact.

 

[American Pakistani]

If you mean around 100,000 dead is not "seriously", then either you're trolling or very, very cold hearted. Also, note for the record that extremist groups supported by the ISI are responsible for the eviction of near 100,000 Pandits from the Valley as well.

You took it differently my friend, by serious i mean they have to stand up firmly not like stand for 10 years & next 10 years lay down. Do you remember after those 100,000 dead by occupiers Pakistan, Kashmiri leadership & india were very near to struck some deal but as soon as that movement become less active, indian changed it's colour.

As for second part of your post it is all indian B.S. Stop watching indian news & channals too much.

 

[Rusty]

1947 Invasion of Kashmir, which was conducted by Pakistani-backed tribal invaders is how the blame lies at Pakistan's door. States were given a date (which, if my memory serves right now, was somewhere in the middle of August), to choose whether they wished to secede to India or Pakistan, Kashmir chose neither and as that time-frame ended, it was de-facto independent.

I do accept the fact that Kashmiris on the Indian Side are treated more like cattle than people, and it's why I care for the well-being of the Pakistani state, but all aside, you cannot justify Pakistan's claim to Kashmir on the basis of atrocities and human rights violations. Political suppression still occurs in AJK/GB, and that is a fact.

You have to understand it from Pakistan's side. We had no military what so ever while India had a veteran force that had fought in WW2. If Pakistan did not take any action India would have gotten all of Kashmir and we would not even have azad Kashmir and GB. You seem to think that somehow Kashmir would have been allowed to form an independent nation had Pakistan not taken action. All I have to say to that is look at all the princely states that tired to be independent. Heck look at Goa, the Indians waited almost 20 years after independence and invaded Goa.

I understand your emotions
but with a neighbor like India, Pakistan had no other option.
Had India been more civilized and resolved disputes by dialog then this would never have been a problem.

 

[KS]

Pakistani believes in giving them their right of self determination. The refrendum of Kashmir has been delayed by india for 60+ years...

it has been delayed because Pakistan is unwilling to remove its military from its part of Kashmir which is a pre-requisite for the referendum to be held. lol

I think the Indian Army's done that all by itself through the atrocities it has constantly committed against the people of Kashmir.

Ofcourse the 'people of Kashmir' were all snowy white when they ethnically cleansed a section of their population from the Valley just because they worshipped a different God. Those fanatics got what they deserved at the hands of the Indian Army.

 

[Rusty]

it has been delayed because Pakistan is unwilling to remove its military from its part of Kashmir which is a pre-requisite for the referendum to be held. lol

It also required India to remove it's forces and leave only enough men to ensure security.
And Pakistan didn't have military forces, we had independent tribal fighter who were not in any chain of command. While you had regular forces that would have been easy to move out.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

You have to understand it from Pakistan's side. We had no military what so ever while India had a veteran force that had fought in WW2. If Pakistan did not take any action India would have gotten all of Kashmir and we would not even have azad Kashmir and GB. You seem to think that somehow Kashmir would have been allowed to form an independent nation had Pakistan not taken action. All I have to say to that is look at all the princely states that tired to be independent. Heck look at Goa, the Indians waited almost 20 years after independence and invaded Goa.

I understand your emotions
but with a neighbor like India, Pakistan had no other option.
Had India been more civilized and resolved disputes by dialog then this would never have been a problem.

Pakistan did indeed have a military -- and one with its very own WW2 veterans. However, British Officers swore mutiny if forced to be deployed against fellow Brits in a Kashmir War, hence Pakistan supported irregulars. If Pakistan was more interested in the wishes of the Kashmiri people than its own -- it would have supported the State of Jammu and Kashmir against an Indian Incursion, rather than launch one of its own -- no?

 

[KS]

You have to understand it from Pakistan's side. We had no military what so ever while India had a veteran force that had fought in WW2. If Pakistan did not take any action India would have gotten all of Kashmir and we would not even have azad Kashmir and GB. You seem to think that somehow Kashmir would have been allowed to form an independent nation had Pakistan not taken action. All I have to say to that is look at all the princely states that tired to be independent. Heck look at Goa, the Indians waited almost 20 years after independence and invaded Goa.

I understand your emotions
but with a neighbor like India, Pakistan had no other option.
Had India been more civilized and resolved disputes by dialog then this would never have been a problem.

So bottom line - Pakstan is justified in invading Kashmir unilaterally but India should not have done so. Wah wah.

 

[American Pakistani]

it has been delayed because Pakistan is unwilling to remove its military from its part of Kashmir which is a pre-requisite for the referendum to be held. lol.

It can still happen under presence of UN. Military is there to protect it from Occupiers.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

it has been delayed because Pakistan is unwilling to remove its military from its part of Kashmir which is a pre-requisite for the referendum to be held. lol



Ofcourse the 'people of Kashmir' were all snowy white when they ethnically cleansed a section of their population from the Valley just because they worshipped a different God. Those fanatics got what they deserved at the hands of the Indian Army.

I love your emotional rhetoric, wasn't it you that claimed in another thread that Kashmir was the 'Sacred land of India'? I doubt a 100,000 fanatics existed though, and I doubt you'd believe such a claim as well. Unless, of course, the Indian Army was sleeping for decades.

Also, this claim that Pakistan didn't remove its military is unjustified and isn't true - was exposed on the 'UN Resolutions' thread by roadrunner, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[KS]

It also required India to remove it's forces and leave only enough men to ensure security.
And Pakistan didn't have military forces, we had independent tribal fighter who were not in any chain of command. While you had regular forces that would have been easy to move out.

The UNSC committe was very clear that it was Pakistan that should first de-militarize the region. It was not to be linked with India doing the same. Pakistan was mandated to do a unilateral, unconditional and complete withdrawal of all its military and tribal irregulars from Kashmir and t was to be followed by India reducing its presence and then allowing the referendum to take place. But since the first step itself did not happen, dont blame India for not conducting the referendum..

 

[Hindustani]

If Pakistan did not take any action India would have gotten all of Kashmir and we would not even have azad Kashmir and GB. You seem to think that somehow Kashmir would have been allowed to form an independent nation had Pakistan not taken action. All I have to say to that is look at all the princely states that tired to be independent. Heck look at Goa, the Indians waited almost 20 years after independence and invaded Goa.

Kashmir WOULD have been independent. You can all thank Jinnah for his greed, which forced the Raja to accede to India.I personally thank Jinnah and pakistan's decision makers for their stupidity. And comparing Goa with Kashmir is like comparing apples and oranges. The people of Goa resisted Portuguese rule which is why India intervened. Read up on the liberation of Goa. 1961 Indian annexation of Goa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I understand your emotions
but with a neighbor like India, Pakistan had no other option.
Had India been more civilized and resolved disputes by dialog then this would never have been a problem.

Again, you can all thank your decision makers. It would have only been a matter of time that Kashmir would have acceded to pakistan. Not only did you lose most of it. The enmity with India thereafter made you lose half your country as well as Siachen in 84'

You have to understand it from Pakistan's side. We had no military what so ever while India had a veteran force that had fought in WW2.

That right there is such bull

 

[American Pakistani]

Pakistan did indeed have a military -- and one with its very own WW2 veterans. However, British Officers swore mutiny if forced to be deployed against fellow Brits in a Kashmir War, hence Pakistan supported irregulars. If Pakistan was more interested in the wishes of the Kashmiri people than its own -- it would have supported the State of Jammu and Kashmir against an Indian Incursion, rather than launch one of its own -- no?

If Pakistan has not taken any action Kashmir would be under permanant indian occupation just like Goa, Hyderabad Deccan, Junagadh & Manvadar, etc. Whatever the issue is today would not be present. Kashmiris(all of the Azad & Maqbooza) would be living under indian govt.

 

[KS]

I love your emotional rhetoric, wasn't it you that claimed in another thread that Kashmir was the 'Sacred land of India'? I doubt a 100,000 fanatics existed though, and I doubt you'd believe such a claim as well. Unless, of course, the Indian Army was sleeping for decades.

Yes its a sacred land. When have I disputed that ? its the land of Amarnath and Vaishno Devi. And 100000 dead is your propaganda..its more like 40,000-50,000 which includes sec forces, kashmiri militants, Pakistani militants and then civilians. In that civilians were killed both by the militants and armed forces.

Also, this claim that Pakistan didn't remove its military is unjustified and isn't true - was exposed on the 'UN Resolutions' thread by roadrunner, if I'm not mistaken.

That claim of rioad runner and agnostic muslim was busted by Toxic pus who proved with documents that Pakistan was unilaterally and unconditionally obligated to remove its military.

 

[Rusty]

Pakistan did indeed have a military -- and one with its very own WW2 veterans. However, British Officers swore mutiny if forced to be deployed against fellow Brits in a Kashmir War, hence Pakistan supported irregulars. If Pakistan was more interested in the wishes of the Kashmiri people than its own -- it would have supported the State of Jammu and Kashmir against an Indian Incursion, rather than launch one of its own -- no?

We had a token force that did not have the numbers nor was it equipped to do its job. And I would like to have sources on the British officers refusing to fight in Kashmir, I have never heard that one before.
During partition, no one was interested in the wishes of anyone! Why do you not understand this? This is nothing personal but everyone was suppressed to the will of Pakistan and India. If you were a Punjabi who wanted to be independent, well too bad! Why do you feel Kashmir is special in this regard? Why do you feel that the world owes you? The fact remains that partition was not a good time for anyone. Millions of people died, millions lost their homes, and millions were traumatized by it. The Kashmir chapter is just one of many during that time.
Pakistan did not need to support Jammu and Kashmir, Jammu and Kashmir should have gone to Pakistan full stop. Every state in the subcontinent got only two choices, India or Pakistan. Again, why do you feel Kashmir is special?

 

[KS]

It can still happen under presence of UN. Military is there to protect it from Occupiers.

No it cannot. Not until the Pakistani military is there. Go read the UNSC resolutions and the pre-requisites for the referendum..lol..love ot when the pakistanis come here demanding referendum when its their country that is standing in the way of that.