FORGETTING THAR? is the new govt ignoring Thar coal?

[Argus Panoptes]

most of it yes, all of it no..
http://www.energyupdate.com.pk/download/thar-presentation-meet-press-6april12.pdf

other gold and copper deposits will remain buried like reko diq as no company want to take the risk, except Chinese companies who have the political connection

In Slide #3 of that presentation, it is stated that:

"Development of Block II alone would bring in investment of USD 12 Billion."

and:

"Entire Thar Coal Reserves can be used to generate 100,000 MW of electricity for over 200 years."

Just who is going to invest $12 billion in Thar? And is that claim of 100,000 MW for 200 years really true? Just how much investment does it take to create 100,000 MW of generating capacity?

These claims simply do not make any sense.

 

[ziaulislam]

In Slide #3 of that presentation, it is stated that:

"Development of Block II alone would bring in investment of USD 12 Billion."

and:

"Entire Thar Coal Reserves can be used to generate 100,000 MW of electricity for over 200 years."

Just who is going to invest $12 billion in Thar? And is that claim of 100,000 MW for 200 years really true? Just how much investment does it take to create 100,000 MW of generating capacity?

These claims simply do not make any sense.

yup to generate full capacity i.e 5000mw per block will mean 12 billion dollars(6 billion dollars if you want to have imported coal based plants on shores) the cost is high due to minning expenditures too

as one block only covers 0.1% of area its safe to assume that it can produce for that amount of time..each block will last for 50 years only
so far 10 blocks covering 1% area have been explored and offered...
1 block=0.1% area with capacity of 5000mw for 40-50 years at cost of 10-12 billion dollars
so if we develop 20 blocks at cost of approx 200 billion dollars than ofcourse we can produce 100,000MW..
many countries like china are doing this..each of the four china state own companies produce approx 40-50k mw from coal

Thar covers more than 300km area, baddin also has coal of same magnitude but its very poor quality, Thar coal comes as low grade lignite while baddin comes as brown coal

in developing countries govt invest atleast 4% on power sector, if we do so it comes out to be 8 billion dollars..we invested less than 80 billion ruppes previous year on power(out of total 800 billion rupees developemntal projects) i.e less than 0.3% of our GDP

 

[A.Rafay]

The new govt is definitely ignoring thar coal, they have time and investments for other big deals but no announcement of any project regarding thar coal!

 

[Argus Panoptes]

yup to generate full capacity i.e 5000mw per block will mean 12 billion dollars(6 billion dollars if you want to have imported coal based plants on shores) the cost is high due to minning expenditures too

as one block only covers 0.1% of area its safe to assume that it can produce for that amount of time..each block will last for 50 years only
so far 10 blocks covering 1% area have been explored and offered...
1 block=0.1% area with capacity of 5000mw for 40-50 years at cost of 10-12 billion dollars
so if we develop 20 blocks at cost of approx 200 billion dollars than ofcourse we can produce 100,000MW..
many countries like china are doing this..each of the four china state own companies produce approx 40-50k mw from coal

Thar covers more than 300km area, baddin also has coal of same magnitude but its very poor quality, Thar coal comes as low grade lignite while baddin comes as brown coal

in developing countries govt invest atleast 4% on power sector, if we do so it comes out to be 8 billion dollars..we invested less than 80 billion ruppes previous year on power(out of total 800 billion rupees developemntal projects) i.e less than 0.3% of our GDP

Which brings us back to the all-important question: who is going to put up these many billions of dollars? Without this investment, Thar coal will remain where it is.

 

[ziaulislam]

Which brings us back to the all-important question: who is going to put up these many billions of dollars? Without this investment, Thar coal will remain where it is.

engro has already arrange finances of 1.8 billion dollars for first phase..they plane to complete it in three stages in 10 years. i think with return rate of 3 years they should be able to do it in phases

sino sindh has also arranged for 1000mw
so 2000mw is confirmed rest we will ave to wait and see..
oracle wants to do Coal Briquetting, the h have completed feasiblity.

feasiblity reports were completed recently in 2012 ..at ideal pace it would take another 4 years for any power to come online, provided bottle necks in transmission and infrastruture doesnt slow the process

if current govt maintain good track record we might see some foreign investment..thats why i said that thar wouldnt be fully exploited unless govt takes the lead..

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

50,000 Pakistani workers could have been hired with just shovel in hand and the coal could have been extracted by now

 

[Argus Panoptes]

engro has already arrange finances of 1.8 billion dollars for first phase..they plane to complete it in three stages in 10 years. i think with return rate of 3 years they should be able to do it in phases

sino sindh has also arranged for 1000mw
so 2000mw is confirmed rest we will ave to wait and see..
oracle wants to do Coal Briquetting, the h have completed feasiblity.

feasiblity reports were completed recently in 2012 ..at ideal pace it would take another 4 years for any power to come online, provided bottle necks in transmission and infrastruture doesnt slow the process

if current govt maintain good track record we might see some foreign investment..thats why i said that thar wouldnt be fully exploited unless govt takes the lead..

Okay, I will wish these efforts every luck. They will need it, and then some.

 

[niaz]

Will the Oil import decrease after GoP Starts utilizing Thar coal?
If yes than ... Some people will benefit hugely if it's ignored!

Pakistan is short of energy hence new power plants on coal will not reduce oil import bill, only there would be no net edition. Should GOP decide to covert existing Steam Turbine power plants from oil to coal. Furnace oil import should reduce significantly.

We must not forget that we are putting nearly 200,000 additional vehicles on the road each year. Therefore total oil import bill will keep rising.

 

[ziaulislam]

Pakistan is short of energy hence new power plants on coal will not reduce oil import bill, only there would be no net edition. Should GOP decide to covert existing Steam Turbine power plants from oil to coal. Furnace oil import should reduce significantly.

We must not forget that we are putting nearly 200,000 additional vehicles on the road each year. Therefore total oil import bill will keep rising.

but if we dont use coal it would rise so fast that it would default our economy..just like the mess india is now facing due to oil imports
we should convert all gas and oil plants to coal or coal gas and use CNG for vehicles,fertilzer and domestic purpose..make gas expensive for cement so they dont misue it and ask them to shift on coal..

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Pakistan is short of energy hence new power plants on coal will not reduce oil import bill, only there would be no net edition. Should GOP decide to covert existing Steam Turbine power plants from oil to coal. Furnace oil import should reduce significantly.

We must not forget that we are putting nearly 200,000 additional vehicles on the road each year. Therefore total oil import bill will keep rising.

Did the previous PM not give the order to convert all the thermal generating plants to Thar coal?

All thermal plants to run on Thar coal: PM - DAWN.COM

After an examination, it was found that such conversion was simply not feasible.

 

[niaz]

Did the previous PM not give the order to convert all the thermal generating plants to Thar coal?

All thermal plants to run on Thar coal: PM - DAWN.COM

After an examination, it was found that such conversion was simply not feasible.

In power plants where the prime mover is a steam turbine; fuel is in burnt in a boiler to produce high pressure steam. Therefore fuel can be on coal, furnace oil (residual fuel oil), gas or crude oil; basically anything that burns, even the bagasse from Sugar mills.

Gas turbines or combined cycle gas turbines cannot run on coal or bagasse etc. Here the fuel is burnt inside the turbine combustion chamber; akin to a very large jet engine; turbine shaft in turn runs the generator. Hot exhaust gases are passed thru a heat recovery steam generator which runs a steam turbine also producing electricity. Combined cycle gas turbines run on gas, diesel/kerosene or furnace oil, even crude.

I am aware that 1600 MW Kot Addu Power Station is a combined cycle gas turbine power plant. Such plants cannot be converted to coal. You need to convert coal into syngas before you can use it as fuel at Kot Addu.

Politicians as well as journalists in Pakistan have little or no knowledge of power generation that is why they make sweeping statements as mentioned in the article referred by you.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

..............
Politicians as well as journalists in Pakistan have little or no knowledge of power generation that is why they make sweeping statements as mentioned in the article referred by you.

As if we needed another reminder that we are surely led by fools. That is why I said that pompously ignorant statements such as this ill-advised conversion plan aside, it will take a LOT to use Thar coal beneficially, wherewithal that is simply beyond us at the moment.

 

[ziaulislam]

Did the previous PM not give the order to convert all the thermal generating plants to Thar coal?

All thermal plants to run on Thar coal: PM - DAWN.COM

After an examination, it was found that such conversion was simply not feasible.

feasible but after investing 8-10 billion dollars..!!!
who would invest it..if govt places 200 billion from PSDP(20% of PSDP or 50% of fedral PSDP) then its possible but govt is more intersted in providing funds to its political areas

combine plants can be run on syn gas that can be produced easily after open pit minning or coal surray procedure..

 

[Argus Panoptes]

feasible but after investing 8-10 billion dollars..!!!
who would invest it..if govt places 200 billion from PSDP(20% of PSDP or 50% of fedral PSDP) then its possible but govt is more intersted in providing funds to its political areas

combine plants can be run on syn gas that can be produced easily after open pit minning or coal surray procedure..

No, it is not feasible to mine, transport and use the Lignite B found in Thar in existing powerplants. Simply impossible, like Sir @niaz explained above. The only way it can make sense is if the Lignite is used on site. And even then it does not make economic sense, but perhaps some national sense for reducing energy dependence goals. I don't see it happening. Like you said, there is simply no money to do that. None.

 

[ziaulislam]

No, it is not feasible to mine, transport and use the Lignite B found in Thar in existing powerplants. Simply impossible, like Sir @niaz explained above. The only way it can make sense is if the Lignite is used on site. And even then it does not make economic sense, but perhaps some national sense for reducing energy dependence goals. I don't see it happening. Like you said, there is simply no money to do that. None.

i am definetly no coal expert and i know that some of the combine gas plants cant be converted into coal but lignite b can be converted through coal surray technique into coal gas...primary feasiblity study was conducted.

while oracle coal company is thinking of coal Briquette to transport coal from thar, the feasilbity report is completed and it also has signed a Mou with KESC, exmples of lignite B been transported by this process exist in the world

reality is we live in denial, denial of even simple things as coal mining. when well calculated studies done by foreign consultants are even available..i dont know who we can believe? i think experts who do study over years do have credibility in this regard

the issue with thar, bhasha dam etc is very simple money,money and money
no single private firm is foolish enough to throw in billions of dollars in high risk country like pakistan with poorest credit ranking in the region
Oracle Coalfields PLC UK Block-VI ‹ Thar Coal and Energy Board
Oracle Coalfields PLC

one example of poor quality coal been briquetted where very poor quality of vast coal reserves allows this process. the technolgy is old tested and used over a dozen different areas
even brown coal and peat has been made able to be used for power and transportation by this very old and simple process

Report - Department of Natural Resources | State of Louisiana


the only technology that has NOT been tested vastly is underground coal gasification that pakistan want to try in thar