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Forget NSA, India's Centre for Development of Telematics is one of top 3 worst online spies

Why do you assume that this surveillance is not against anti-State elements ?

I don't doubt that the majority of targets are legitimate but these programs have a tendency to inflate of their own accord, and the definition of "anti-state" get applied more and more broadly.

Next step, the surveillance becomes preemptive, meaning everyone is under surveillance, just in case.

"The West" is doing it too. US and UK are also among top 3.

All governments love power, whether they are democratic or otherwise.
 
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I don't doubt that the majority of targets are legitimate but these programs have a tendency to inflate of their own accord, and the definition of "anti-state" get applied more and more broadly.

Next step, the surveillance becomes preemptive, meaning everyone is under surveillance, just in case.



All governments love power, whether they are democratic or otherwise.

As I said in the part of my post that you didn't address. As long as the surveillance doesn't lead to censorship and legal actions against commentators , surveillance itself is not an issue. Of course there is a very thin line which should not be crossed. If and when the government does cross it , I am sure our judiciary will step in. This is where the system of checks and balances of a democracy comes in.
 
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As I said in the part of my post that you didn't address. As long as the surveillance doesn't lead to censorship and legal actions against commentators , surveillance itself is not an issue.

It was addressed in a previous post: right to privacy and freedom from unreasonable search is a fundamental aspect of democratic freedoms.

Of course there is a very thin line which should not be crossed. If and when the government does cross it , I am sure our judiciary will step in. This is where the system of checks and balances of a democracy comes in.

Western democracies are far more mature, with far stricter checks and balances, than anything India can claim. In India, it is far more likely that your data will be for sale (to business rivals or others) for a few thousand rupees on the black market.
 
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Western democracies are far more mature, with far stricter checks and balances, than anything India can claim. In India, it is far more likely that your data will be for sale (to business rivals or others) for a few thousand rupees on the black market.

Never compared Indian democracies to the West, i don't know why you choose to do that. But be rest assured , if any trade secrets or inside information is being "traded in the black market" it will be found out and the culprits will be prosecuted. The recent discovery of scams committed by sitting members of Parliament and their convictions do teach about the maturing of the Indian democracy in this regard and yes , in India the judiciary has acted as a major check to executive arbitrariness. I am not going into how much better the West is at it.That is irrelevant to the current topic.
 
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Changing your entire society to depict a police state just to chase a few terrorists is unfortunate . Your privacy should be protected and this system will easily be abused and taken advantage off . terrorists will be laughing their asses off ..

And no , don't even come up with the " You should have nothing to hide" nonsense . Its my private life , nobody has any business knowing what i do on the Internet ...
What will you do with your privacy when some jihadi is ready to blow you to kingdom come. W live in an imperfect world and we have to live by imperfect rules
 
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Never compared Indian democracies to the West, i don't know why you choose to do that.

The discussion is about erosion of freedom, and you mentioned that US and UK are among the top three. So I am explaining that these mature democracies have more oversight in these matters, and they still exceeded their bounds. In India, it is a foregone certainty that this power will be abused by intermediate bureaucrats.
 
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What will you do with your privacy when some jihadi is ready to blow you to kingdom come. W live in an imperfect world and we have to live by imperfect rules

Odds of Dying by Terrorist Attack: 20,000,000 to 1

Am not worried about some Jihadi's am more worried about giving too much power to the govt. , giving them access to too much personal information on the pretext of war on terror.... This could quiet easily be mis used
 
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I can't believe people will so easily allow a democratic country to have such draconian laws where you can violate the rights of your citizens in the name of fighting terrorism . You might as well go to prison if you want to be safe ...

Giving Up Liberty for Security - Reason.com

When Edward Snowden revealed that the federal government, in direct defiance of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, was unlawfully and unconstitutionally spying on all Americans who use telephones, text messaging or emails to communicate with other persons, he opened a Pandora's box of allegations and recriminations. The allegations he unleashed are that Americans have a government that assaults our personal freedoms, operates in secrecy and violates the Constitution and the values upon which it is based. The recriminations are that safety is a greater good than liberty, and Snowden interfered with the ability of the government to keep us safe by exposing its secrets, and so he should be silenced and punished.

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How Courts Failed the Constitution: Clark Neily on "Terms of Engagement"

In the course of this debate, you have heard the argument that we all need to sacrifice some liberty in order to assure our safety, that liberty and safety are in equipoise, and when they clash, it is the government that should balance one against the other and decide which shall prevail. This is, of course, an argument the government loves, as it presupposes that the government has the moral, legal and constitutional power to make this satanic bargain.

It doesn't.

Roman emperors and tribal chieftains, King George III and French revolutionaries, 20th-century dictators and 21st-century American presidents all have asserted that their first job is to keep us safe, and in doing so, they are somehow entitled to take away our liberties, whether it be the speech they hate or fear, the privacy they capriciously love to invade or the private property and wealth they salaciously covet.

This argument is antithetical to the principal value upon which America was founded. That value is simply that individuals -- created in the image and likeness of God and thus possessed of the freedoms that He enjoys and has shared with us -- are the creators of the government. A sovereign is the source of his own powers. The government is not sovereign. All the freedom that individuals possess, we have received as a gift from God, who is the only true sovereign. All of the powers the government possesses it has received from us, from our personal repositories of freedom.

Thomas Jefferson recognized this when he wrote in the Declaration of Independence that our rights are inalienable -- they cannot be separated from us -- because we have been endowed with them by our Creator. James Madison, who wrote the Constitution, observed that in the history of the world, when freedom has been won, it happened because those in power begrudgingly permitted freedom as a condition of staying in power or even staying alive.

But not in America.

In America, the opposite occurred when free people voluntarily permitted the government to exercise the limited power needed to protect freedom. That is known as "the consent of the governed." To Jefferson and Madison, a government lacking that consent is illegitimate.

So, the principal author of the Declaration of Independence and the principal author of the Constitution were of one mind on this: All persons are by nature free, and to preserve those freedoms, they have consented to a government. That was the government they gave us -- not power permitting liberty, but liberty permitting power -- and the instrument of that permission was the Constitution.

The Constitution was created by free men to define and limit the government so it can defend but not threaten our freedoms. Since only free persons can consent to a government, the government cannot lawfully exist without those consents. Here is where the modern-day tyrants and big-government apologists have succeeded in confusing well-meaning people. They have elevated safety -- which is a goal of government -- to the level of freedom -- which created the government. This common and pedestrian argument makes the creature -- safety -- equal its creator -- freedom. That is a metaphysical impossibility because it presumes that the good to be purchased is somehow equal to the free choices of the purchaser.

What does this mean?

It means that when politicians say that liberty and safety need to be balanced against each other, they are philosophically, historically and constitutionally wrong. Liberty is the default position. Liberty is the essence of our natural state. Liberty cannot possibly be equal to a good we have instructed the government to obtain.

What is the only moral relationship between liberty and safety?

It cannot be balance, because liberty and safety are not equals, as one created the other. It can only be bias -- a continual predisposition toward and preference for freedom.

Every conceivable clash between the free choices of persons and their instructions to their government to safeguard freedom must favor the free choices because freedom is inalienable. Just as I cannot authorize the government to take away your freedom any more than you can authorize it to take away mine, a majority of all but one cannot authorize the government in a free society to take freedom from that one individual. So if somehow freedom and safety do clash, it is the free choice of each person to resolve that clash for himself, and not one the government can morally make.

The government will always make choices that favor its power because, as Ludwig von Mises reminded us, government is essentially the negation of freedom. If anyone truly believes that by silencing him or monitoring him or taxing him the government keeps him safe, and that those are the least restrictive means by which to do so, let that person surrender his own speech and privacy and wealth. The rest of us will retain ours and provide for our own safety.

The reasons we have consented to limited government are to preserve the freedom to pursue happiness, the freedom to be different and the freedom to be left alone. None of these freedoms can exist if we are subservient to the government in the name of safety or anything else.
 
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Welcome back :cheers:
It was a good break, finally I got some work done, while I was off from Pak defence.


On topic, I think that people read such sensationalist news and blow things out of proportion. Any good programmer and a tech savvy person understands the risks of technology. A simple HTML code can be used to track your geolocation using the HTML 5 geolocation API. User permissions can be bypassed or gained using spam emails.

Lets say you, download an app on your phone and it asks for permissions to gather information from your FB account. Now, 99.99% of the people wont even read the permission it is seeking and would just click OKAY.. There you go, the developer now has information of all your checkins and if you turn on your GPS, real time tracking can be done.

Chats, photos etc can be easily accessed from servers and which can be easily accessed. Infact, companies like Facebook, Snapchat, Whatsapp have secret deals with the government to provide all necessary information.

The discussion is about erosion of freedom, and you mentioned that US and UK are among the top three. So I am explaining that these mature democracies have more oversight in these matters, and they still exceeded their bounds. In India, it is a foregone certainty that this power will be abused by intermediate bureaucrats.
Lmao erosion of Freedom, use of such phrases doesn't make your point valid. India is a mature democracy just like the west and if you think that secret information is not sold in the west then you are mistaken.
 
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Lmao erosion of Freedom, use of such phrases doesn't make your point valid.

Right to privacy is a freedom which is being eroded.
You may agree with this erosion and rationalize it, which is your right, but it doesn't change the fact of the erosion.

India is a mature democracy just like the west and if you think that secret information is not sold in the west then you are mistaken.

Never denied it. It's about a matter of degree.
 
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Odds of Dying by Terrorist Attack: 20,000,000 to 1

Am not worried about some Jihadi's am more worried about giving too much power to the govt. , giving them access to too much personal information on the pretext of war on terror.... This could quiet easily be mis used
Those are figures from USA where after 9/11 there was no terrorist attack for more than a decade till the Boston Bombings.

I need not remind you of number and frequency of terror attacks that we face.

After the Parliament attack NDA govt passed the POTA and what did the terrorist sympathisers do? Repeal it soon after they came to power.

I don't mind govt checking which **** website I visit if in the process it makes me safer from the terrorist. The very fact that even with this surveillance we are not safe points that it is not effective and we want greater power to nip the terrorists in the bud
 
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Right to privacy is a freedom which is being eroded.
You may agree with this erosion and rationalize it, which is your right, but it doesn't change the fact of the erosion.



Never denied it. It's about a matter of degree.
Do you realize that, there is a chance that Pakistani government is also trying to spy of thier nationals, even though I doubt that Pakistan has the ability or vision to set up the necessary infrastructure needed. But, I am sure if they have the ability to do it, they are doing it.

Those are figures from USA where after 9/11 there was no terrorist attack for more than a decade till the Boston Bombings.

I need not remind you of number and frequency of terror attacks that we face.

After the Parliament attack NDA govt passed the POTA and what did the terrorist sympathisers do? Repeal it soon after they came to power.

I don't mind govt checking which **** website I visit if in the process it makes me safer from the terrorist. The very fact that even with this surveillance we are not safe points that it is not effective and we want greater power to nip the terrorists in the bud
Terrorism is just an excuse, it is actually practically impossible to detect who is a terrorist and who is just by judging chats and conversations. The real motive is to actually see what citizens of nation are doing online. Governments wants to know that the billionares and big businessmen are planning and talking about and what websites are being used the most and for what.
 
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