First Pakistani Army Viper Attack Helicopter Spotted

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

AH-1Z Cobra delivery is delayed because of some problems in remainder of payments.

Was GHQ planning to use FMF for those payments?

 

[PAR 5]

Was GHQ planning to use FMF for those payments?

Initial payments were made through FMF. But than for the remainder payments FMF dried up. Americans offered a 'loan' to GHQ, Bajwa refused and now GHQ is trying to muster up funds to do around 30-40% remainder payment so that the birds can be shipped. Lets see how that happens and when.

 

[Gryphon]

Mi-28 favours following over T-129 and Z-10:

1. Mmw Radar (Mi-28 N). For others, Mmw radars are in design/production phase.
2. Double ATGM payload without compromising other weapon stations.
3. Identical controls for pilot and WSO, layout for WSO to fly and control the chopper
4. Non-American engine (T-129) and neither thrust/power issues(Z-10).
5. Ability to carry 3 troops apart from Pilot and WSO.
6. Crash energy absorption armored cockpit with armored windows

A project in the direction of an in-house Gunship should have started in any case, PAA should have followed the pattern of Iranians to build a gunship frame at least based on AH-1 like Toufan(Iranian AH-1 copy). The engine could have russian like JF-17. Avionics and other systems could have been mix of chinese, turkish or russian. Pakistan already has experience integrating weapons from different countries on one machine. Its a pity that Pakistan has made an aircraft, tank, UAV and UCAV but no helicopter.


it has been already opened to chinese. Research a bit.

Well explained.

The T-129 is very expensive, costs as much as the AH-1Z Viper (or even more) and is inferior in all domains (range, payload, radar/sensors and weapons suite).

PAC will assemble the aircraft and manufacture some parts. Pakistan has already requested a USD 1.5 billion loan from Turkey for 30 helicopters and the total value of the helicopters (including the loan) is still not known.

This deal is unaffordable for Pakistan & should be scrapped. Pakistan should include attack helicopter development (with Russian/Chinese assistance) in Project Azm.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Well explained.

The T-129 is very expensive, costs as much as the AH-1Z Viper (or even more) and is inferior in all domains (range, payload, radar/sensors and weapons suite).

PAC will assemble the aircraft and manufacture some parts. Pakistan has already requested a USD 1.5 billion loan from Turkey for 30 helicopters and the total value of the helicopters (including the loan) is still not known.

This deal is unaffordable for Pakistan & should be scrapped. Pakistan should include attack helicopter development (with Russian/Chinese assistance) in Project Azm.

Why would the T-129 be cheaper then the AH-1Z if it is being offered with some sort of manufacturing/assembling/maintenance support package as well? Not to mention that the AH-1Z is already discounted and has the benefit of economies of scale as well due to large US orders and commonality in parts with other Bell helos. But one is a straight on purchase while other will help setup some sort of expertise in Pakistan ... even if its overhaul of some sort. So we are not just paying for a platform but also other ancillary benefits. Not to mention, imo, the completely useless purchase of Mi-35s at pretty high costs as well. Those funds should have gone towards T-129 ideally.
Now I don't dispute Pakistan trying to design their own helo, but what is the timeline here? 15-20 years at a minimum ... in the meantime, the AH-1Fs still need to be replaced yesterday.

 

[Gentelman]

Well explained.

The T-129 is very expensive, costs as much as the AH-1Z Viper (or even more) and is inferior in all domains (range, payload, radar/sensors and weapons suite).

PAC will assemble the aircraft and manufacture some parts. Pakistan has already requested a USD 1.5 billion loan from Turkey for 30 helicopters and the total value of the helicopters (including the loan) is still not known.

This deal is unaffordable for Pakistan & should be scrapped. Pakistan should include attack helicopter development (with Russian/Chinese assistance) in Project Azm.

The Turks are working hard to secure deals with Pakistan.....
No the Chinese goodies aren't as good and you can't put all off your eggs in one basket. T-129 has technological and performance edge over chinese and Russian will need hard cash.
Moreover Turks are also willing to arrange credit line from Pakistan, share technology and set up assembly and limited manufacturing , overhauling will also be easy to set up in Pakistan. Turks also prefer Pakistani goodies like Super Mushak, over other products, get the message... T-129 other heavy version is also under development, MMR radar also has been developed and so on...

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

With the upcoming heavier version ATAK may achieve parity with AH1Z in CAS and anti tank role. It also should be noted that we got only 12-15 Vipers with some arms and parts etc.

Compare that to circa 30 birds along with ToT/work share, parts, support services etc for ~$1-2 billion.

The Turks are working hard to secure deals with Pakistan.....
No the Chinese goodies aren't as good and you can't put all off your eggs in one basket. T-129 has technological and performance edge over chinese and Russian will need hard cash.
Moreover Turks are also willing to arrange credit line from Pakistan, share technology and set up assembly and limited manufacturing , overhauling will also be easy to set up in Pakistan. Turks also prefer Pakistani goodies like Super Mushak, over other products, get the message... T-129 other heavy version is also under development, MMR radar also has been developed and so on...

 

[Gryphon]

Why would the T-129 be cheaper then the AH-1Z if it is being offered with some sort of manufacturing/assembling/maintenance support package as well? Not to mention that the AH-1Z is already discounted and has the benefit of economies of scale as well due to large US orders and commonality in parts with other Bell helos. But one is a straight on purchase while other will help setup some sort of expertise in Pakistan ... even if its overhaul of some sort. So we are not just paying for a platform but also other ancillary benefits. Not to mention, imo, the completely useless purchase of Mi-35s at pretty high costs as well. Those funds should have gone towards T-129 ideally.
Now I don't dispute Pakistan trying to design their own helo, but what is the timeline here? 15-20 years at a minimum ... in the meantime, the AH-1Fs still need to be replaced yesterday.

The Turks are working hard to secure deals with Pakistan.....
No the Chinese goodies aren't as good and you can't put all off your eggs in one basket. T-129 has technological and performance edge over chinese and Russian will need hard cash.
Moreover Turks are also willing to arrange credit line from Pakistan, share technology and set up assembly and limited manufacturing , overhauling will also be easy to set up in Pakistan. Turks also prefer Pakistani goodies like Super Mushak, over other products, get the message... T-129 other heavy version is also under development, MMR radar also has been developed and so on...

AH-1Z price includes the support package.
As you mentioned, it will have large USMC and other orders to split out the development cost.

T-129 has a massive development cost and its 'hot and high' performance results from the American engine, which just like the AH-1Z is sanction prone.

As I mentioned previously, AH-1Z being on the heavier side, is superior in all domains to the T-129. Its impressive Hellfire load carrying capacity is what the PA desires. Local assembly & manufacturing of few parts is to reduce costs. It hardly provides any expertise in future development.

Like F-16 & JF-17 fighter aircraft, AH-1Z & T-129 are in the medium and light category respectively. The only difference I see is, here the gainers are TAI/AW and not PAC.

Super Mushshak won over its competitors on price. Not the offset story some are trumpeting.

Regarding Mi-35M, I believe the 'odd purchase' of 4 helos meets Pakistani COIN requirements (SF insertion). It has commonality with Mi-17 and as per Russian diplomat Zamir Kabulov, Pakistan was interested in 10-12 pcs.

Regards!

With the upcoming heavier version ATAK may achieve parity with AH1Z in CAS and anti tank role. It also should be noted that we got only 12-15 Vipers with some arms and parts etc.

Compare that to circa 30 birds along with ToT/work share, parts, support services etc for ~$1-2 billion.

Yes, they can. But that comes with its own price.

The Turkish stuff is expensive, even exceeding the price of some better French products. Since they are offering loans, I think Pakistan doesn't have a choice either.

 

[SipahSalar]

Was GHQ planning to use FMF for those payments?

According to reports the American sanctions are much larger than just $255 million, totaling upto $1.9 billion worth of equipment. This also includes equipment that Pakistan bought in 2013 and other equipment that was in the pipeline. I think we received 3 Zulus last year and it seems unlikely we are going to receive the remaining 9-12.

 

[araz]

According to reports the American sanctions are much larger than just $255 million, totaling upto $1.9 billion worth of equipment. This also includes equipment that Pakistan bought in 2013 and other equipment that was in the pipeline. I think we received 3 Zulus last year and it seems unlikely we are going to receive the remaining 9-12.

So far to the best of my knowledge we have received none of the AH1Zs. We were due to receive 3 units in 2017 but they have not been delivered.
A

 

[qamar1990]

when will pakistan receive these?

 

[BHarwana]

I shall make it very clear that it's India invaded our land first(transpassed the Mcmahon line and illegally occupied south Tibet) then we had to fight back.

If pakistan don't even trust China, I don't have anything to add here. Diversification is no wrong, do whatever you like.

China won't poke any friend if they don't back-stab us.

Now it's USA asks Pakistan to stay away from China, not contra versa.

As long as China is strong and prosperous, India is going no where.

What he'll 12 Zulu can do in a war against India? To showcase? You need hundreds of Z10 to deal with T90 tanks. Those Zulu in my eyes are just toys to make PA general feel pompous, to ensure the relationship between USA and Pakistan going on.

All those who say that z-10 are not coming to Pakistan are wrong, Z-10 are coming to Pakistan in the greatest number ever. Pakistan needs Attack helicopters in very large numbers. The improvements on Z-10 that came to Pakistan were suggested and contract will be signed soon.

 

[帅的一匹]

All those who say that z-10 are not coming to Pakistan are wrong, Z-10 are coming to Pakistan in the greatest number ever. Pakistan needs Attack helicopters in very large numbers. The improvements on Z-10 that came to Pakistan were suggested and contract will be signed soon.

Z10 is just a tip of the ice of the cooperation between China and Pakistan. We shall have some patience.

 

[BHarwana]

Z10 is just a tip of the ice of the cooperation between China and Pakistan. We shall have some patience.

Pakistan has always bought weapons from the west in past but those weapons are always accompanied by Chinese weapons. Yes T-129 is coming but so is Z-10 and Z-10 will be in far greater number than any attack platform the diversification is due to US sanction that threatens any long term procurement. So Z-10 will make the back bone of PA.

There will be even Z-19E coming as AVIC has already listed Pakistan as potential buyer.

 

[帅的一匹]

Pakistan has always bought weapons from the west in past but those weapons are always accompanied by Chinese weapons. Yes T-129 is coming but so is Z-10 and Z-10 will be in far greater number than any attack platform the diversification is due to US sanction that threatens any long term procurement. So Z-10 will make the back bone of PA.

There will be even Z-19E coming as AVIC has already listed Pakistan as potential buyer.

Pakistan is our ally, so anything is possible.

 

[HAIDER]

Z10 is just a tip of the ice of the cooperation between China and Pakistan. We shall have some patience.

z10 in use in and around along Pak Afghan border. They been used in few operation inside Afghan border. But still in testing phase.