Fighter jet makers eye Indian riches after scaled-back French deal - G Lobby Vs LCA

[SpArK]

A valid point.


"Performance counts when aircraft are in the air, defending the skies. Unfortunately, too many fighter aircraft are either sitting on the ground because they are too expensive to fly or simply do not have the capabilities that they were touted to have.

This was posted some years back.

 

[Ind4Ever]

What our DM is thinking ?

To replace Mig21: Which Rafale can't . So we might go for 5/6 Squadron in next 5 years . On but we all know MK2 is not gonna come any time soon before 2021 -23 ... And so we might go for additional new fighter in light weight category under Make in India . So what are out options ?

As far as Grippin Is concerned only G-NG can be the candidate . But wait ! 69 million a pop is it even viable to go for it even with 50 million ? When we already have Tejas MK1 ? Previous order of 40 still not delivered . So why not to open or increase the rate of production from 36 to at least 50 ? Invest money into it so we will hav tej in numbers to replace Mig 21 and as soon as MK2 enters in to services there could be no need for Gripin NG . When MK2 still be at 40-50 millions price tag than NG s 69 millions - 80 million

So stick with Tej Mk1/2 and go for more Rafale or MMRCA replacement with much more capabilities .

For IAF even if you give them F22 they will have some reservation on its design and they will ask for improved version

 

[PARIKRAMA]

i will add some fuel to fire

Devendra Fadnavis @Dev_Fadnavis · Apr 15
In @Saab manufactured fighter plane at Linköping,Sweden.Thanks SAAB for your interest to @makeinmaha for #MakeInIndia

Devendra Fadnavis @Dev_Fadnavis · Apr 15
It was great to be at the aerospace & defence company SAAB at Linköping,Sweden. Promised a defence manufacturing policy in Maharashtra soon.

 

[Suman]

makes me sick when I see this, how long is this scenario? smh
India needs to replenish an air force fleet that has fallen to 34 operational squadrons, down from 39 earlier this decade and below the government-approved strength of 42 considered necessary to face a two-front challenge from Pakistan and China.

 

[Grevion]

Why not purchase F-16 ?

Both PAF and IAF are using Mi-17 helicopters, Il-78 aerial tankers.

But both Mi-17 and the Il-78 are transport and fuel tankers and are not used for aerial combat..
and also we need light weight fighter jets for mainly interception role which our tejas can perform quite well.

 

[Donatello]

F-16IN is superior to block 52s in each and every sense....

Its like comparing Maruti 800 and Dzire.

Except, the IN viper doesn't exist. Only on paper. LM didn't even bother to do a full feasibility study on it when they realized:
1-India would not got for US equipment due to strict control laws
2-LM's ToT was limited to assembling rather than what India is trying to force Dassault into.

In any case, F-16 is not light weight. at 7.5tons of payload, it is well into medium weight.

makes me sick when I see this, how long is this scenario? smh
India needs to replenish an air force fleet that has fallen to 34 operational squadrons, down from 39 earlier this decade and below the government-approved strength of 42 considered necessary to face a two-front challenge from Pakistan and China.

Well, it is nice to lay plans on paper, but lets look at the reality:
India is inducting MMRCA to replace the Mig21s and using the LCA to fill up the numbers to more like 1 on 1. But by the end of the decade, Mig27s are due for retirement as well. Kargil showed that they are nothing but cold war relics, M2Ks beat them in any role hands down (which is what IAF realized and hence invested in their upgrades). So even if India manages to secure 126 MMRCA, and 50 more Sukhois as proposed along with the 150 LCA, it is still going to be only replace the Mig21 and Mig27 numbers. Squadron numbers remain the same. 42 squadrons is a lot of combat fleet, and that is not happening unless India proposes a MMRCA x3. Point being, in the next 10-15 years, you will be hovering around the 32-36 squadron mark because by 2025/2030 your earlier Sukhois, upgraded M2Ks and Jaguars would be nearing retiring as well.

About the two front war and Indian Fetish with China and Pakistan, i'd say that is an overblown paranoia and nothing more. Chinese and Pakistani nukes guarantee that Most of the MMRCA and Sukhois will never see the intended combat. So is it really worth it to spend copious amount on jets that probably will never be used?

A valid point.


"Performance counts when aircraft are in the air, defending the skies. Unfortunately, too many fighter aircraft are either sitting on the ground because they are too expensive to fly or simply do not have the capabilities that they were touted to have.

This was posted some years back.

Great for a logistical nightmare. While the world's leading air forces want to consolidate their fleets in single or dual kinds of multi-role, India wants to spread out everything.

 

[SpArK]

Except, the IN viper doesn't exist. Only on paper. LM didn't even bother to do a full feasibility study on it when they realized:
1-India would not got for US equipment due to strict control laws
2-LM's ToT was limited to assembling rather than what India is trying to force Dassault into.

.

Ofcourse F-16IN doesnt exist as LM have not produced anything and IN is designated for India.

Real question is anything similar exists, since F-16IN (proposed ) configuration does not change the aircraft’s external appearance.

Oh yes, its name is F-16V. The F-16V gets AESA radar, an upgraded mission computer and architecture, and an improved “glass” (digital) cockpit similar to F-16IN (proposed).

Lockheed: F-16V Passes Radar Integration Milestone | Defense News | defensenews.com
SINGAPORE: Lockheed Martin announces F-16V development - 2/15/2012 - Flight Global

The avionics, the radar and the modular mission computer are the focus.

F-16 V/IN customers would have a choice of the 29,000-pound Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 Engine.

Strict equipment control is something of the past, we are buying lotta US stuff that too critical now.

ToT is not discussed, the plugging of numbers is the key here.... we are not getting ToT for all stuff we want.

 

[Bang Galore]

What our DM is thinking ?

This DM is going to shake up things quite a bit. He is very sceptical about IAF protestations & he has even asked whether we need the same numbers as before, both because the new aircrafts are much more superior & should not be seen as 1 for 1 replacement as also whether some of the job that was being done by fighters have not been made redundant by the advancement of missiles available. Read his interviews & he is pretty scathing about the previous government on sanctioning projects & purchases without assigning the money for it. There is a not so subtle hint towards the forces as well. He has reduced in half, the outlay for the army's new mountain division while also reducing the sanctioned strength by half, asking where the money for the idea was? This new assessment is happening across the board with a whole host of projects.

HAL is going to have a tough time with this government if they aren't able to pull up their socks. However the only way an additional light fighter is going to be considered if the DM decides that HAL needs the help & hold out the carrot of a substantial order for a manufacturer to be interested.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Except, the IN viper doesn't exist. Only on paper. LM didn't even bother to do a full feasibility study on it when they realized:
1-India would not got for US equipment due to strict control laws
2-LM's ToT was limited to assembling rather than what India is trying to force Dassault into.

In any case, F-16 is not light weight. at 7.5tons of payload, it is well into medium weight.



Well, it is nice to lay plans on paper, but lets look at the reality:
India is inducting MMRCA to replace the Mig21s and using the LCA to fill up the numbers to more like 1 on 1. But by the end of the decade, Mig27s are due for retirement as well. Kargil showed that they are nothing but cold war relics, M2Ks beat them in any role hands down (which is what IAF realized and hence invested in their upgrades). So even if India manages to secure 126 MMRCA, and 50 more Sukhois as proposed along with the 150 LCA, it is still going to be only replace the Mig21 and Mig27 numbers. Squadron numbers remain the same. 42 squadrons is a lot of combat fleet, and that is not happening unless India proposes a MMRCA x3. Point being, in the next 10-15 years, you will be hovering around the 32-36 squadron mark because by 2025/2030 your earlier Sukhois, upgraded M2Ks and Jaguars would be nearing retiring as well.

About the two front war and Indian Fetish with China and Pakistan, i'd say that is an overblown paranoia and nothing more. Chinese and Pakistani nukes guarantee that Most of the MMRCA and Sukhois will never see the intended combat. So is it really worth it to spend copious amount on jets that probably will never be used?



Great for a logistical nightmare. While the world's leading air forces want to consolidate their fleets in single or dual kinds of multi-role, India wants to spread out everything.

It's not about spreading out But about having options open against any threats . Sukois may the best but it's too expensive to carry out small missions .

Now Tejas MK1 might get improved AESA radar among others before its been pushed for large number I guess . It's better if India buy new GE F414 extended version engine but we already made contract for f404 which is disappointing . Why not upgrade Engines , add EW suits , import AESA and fit into MK1 . Making it kind of MK 1.5 version ? Rather going for whole new aircraft . ManPar also said Tejas will be inducted in large numbers but will major improvements to make our ever unsatisfied IAF which want same specs with MK2 . As things are going I wonder how MK2 will looks like . Latest reports suggest that It's gonna be a different fighter compared with MK1 . Lots of speculation going on . But one thing is for sure . Mig21 will be replaced 1-1 basis . For being a interceptor Modified 414 is the best option with super cruise capabilities at 1.5 mach and 2 mach with after burn . For this being the case MK2 have to under go major changes in Aerodynamics too. Which will have to be followed with changes in Airframe and so internal modification too . We have now pushed the timeline for 2021-23 for MK2 starts it's production .

This DM is going to shake up things quite a bit. He is very sceptical about IAF protestations & he has even asked whether we need the same numbers as before, both because the new aircrafts are much more superior & should not be seen as 1 for 1 replacement as also whether some of the job that was being done by fighters have not been made redundant by the advancement of missiles available. Read his interviews & he is pretty scathing about the previous government on sanctioning projects & purchases without assigning the money for it. There is a not so subtle hint towards the forces as well. He has reduced in half, the outlay for the army's new mountain division while also reducing the sanctioned strength by half, asking where the money for the idea was? This new assessment is happening across the board with a whole host of projects.

HAL is going to have a tough time with this government if they aren't able to pull up their socks. However the only way an additional light fighter is going to be considered if the DM decides that HAL needs the help & hold out the carrot of a substantial order for a manufacturer to be interested.

Now we need 100+ more other than Tejas to replace entire Mig21 fleet . May be we will go for More supply line or F16 or Gripin NG with full ToT . Hopefully US will be ready to give ToT for F16s too.

i will add some fuel to fire

Devendra Fadnavis @Dev_Fadnavis · Apr 15
In @Saab manufactured fighter plane at Linköping,Sweden.Thanks SAAB for your interest to @makeinmaha for #MakeInIndia

Devendra Fadnavis @Dev_Fadnavis · Apr 15
It was great to be at the aerospace & defence company SAAB at Linköping,Sweden. Promised a defence manufacturing policy in Maharashtra soon.

WHAT !!!!!

I don't like Gripin they always wanted to kill Tejas programme

 

[black-hawk_101]

I think IAF might going to order all different types of Fighter which they had in competition:
Grippen
Typhoon
Rafael
F-18
MiG-35
Su-35
I am sure about 40-50 each.

 

[anant_s]

This DM is going to shake up things quite a bit. He is very sceptical about IAF protestations & he has even asked whether we need the same numbers as before, both because the new aircrafts are much more superior & should not be seen as 1 for 1 replacement as also whether some of the job that was being done by fighters have not been made redundant by the advancement of missiles available. Read his interviews & he is pretty scathing about the previous government on sanctioning projects & purchases without assigning the money for it. There is a not so subtle hint towards the forces as well. He has reduced in half, the outlay for the army's new mountain division while also reducing the sanctioned strength by half, asking where the money for the idea was? This new assessment is happening across the board with a whole host of projects.

Well said!
infact the way this government is moving (not just in defence, but other sectors such as Railways etc too), the same policy is followed that no new project will be taken up until older ones are finished coupled with close monitoring, something that was missing previously.
In it actually might be a better idea as far as delivery is concerned on a project, rather than announcing big, it is far better to execute and close smaller targets. It cuts down on cost due to escalation and inflation effects that invariably creep into projects that linger on beyond deadlines, not only clogging budgets but also creating a negative image of establishment on poor project execution.

 

[Donatello]

It's not about spreading out But about having options open against any threats . Sukois may the best but it's too expensive to carry out small missions .

Now Tejas MK1 might get improved AESA radar among others before its been pushed for large number I guess . It's better if India buy new GE F414 extended version engine but we already made contract for f404 which is disappointing . Why not upgrade Engines , add EW suits , import AESA and fit into MK1 . Making it kind of MK 1.5 version ? Rather going for whole new aircraft . ManPar also said Tejas will be inducted in large numbers but will major improvements to make our ever unsatisfied IAF which want same specs with MK2 . As things are going I wonder how MK2 will looks like . Latest reports suggest that It's gonna be a different fighter compared with MK1 . Lots of speculation going on . But one thing is for sure . Mig21 will be replaced 1-1 basis . For being a interceptor Modified 414 is the best option with super cruise capabilities at 1.5 mach and 2 mach with after burn . For this being the case MK2 have to under go major changes in Aerodynamics too. Which will have to be followed with changes in Airframe and so internal modification too . We have now pushed the timeline for 2021-23 for MK2 starts it's production .



Now we need 100+ more other than Tejas to replace entire Mig21 fleet . May be we will go for More supply line or F16 or Gripin NG with full ToT . Hopefully US will be ready to give ToT for F16s too.


WHAT !!!!!

I don't like Gripin they always wanted to kill Tejas programme

US will happily allow co-production, but not ToT like India envisions. The whole idea of selecting either the Typhoon or Rafale was that Europeans would be easy to entice for ToT......better said than done, and as seen it was a flawed narrative.

US can offer India something like they gave to Turkey......TAI was able to co produce the F-16s. But keep in mind Turkey is a strategic partner and member of NATO. India is neither.

Secondly, has IAF gone completely stupid? In this world of multi-role aircraft, and fleet consolidation, they want multiple platforms, when they have trouble keeping the biggest fleet (SU30) at or above 70% availability rate?

Look at the JSF F35. Previously the US Marine Corps, US Navy and US Airforce all fielded their own, specific combat aircraft. F-35 was developed to make that easy. Same aircraft across all users.
If a wealthy and powerful nation like USA (which rules the air and seas) is consolidating it's fleet (even though it doesn't need to) what makes India think that having Rafale and F-16s side by side along with M2Ks, Mig29s and SU30 will work for them?
Sure, on paper it looks good, but logistical nightmare.

 

[Ind4Ever]

US will happily allow co-production, but not ToT like India envisions. The whole idea of selecting either the Typhoon or Rafale was that Europeans would be easy to entice for ToT......better said than done, and as seen it was a flawed narrative.

US can offer India something like they gave to Turkey......TAI was able to co produce the F-16s. But keep in mind Turkey is a strategic partner and member of NATO. India is neither.

first of all F16 has 10% chance to be selected for 10% new fighter acquisition if it all happened . And US could be more than happy to ToT withholding some critical technology which can be replaced with Others. US will never share critical technology with any one outside NATO true. But things have changed for the good in just 10 months too. Americans follows a certain methods for technical transfers of selling of weapons . Take for example their offering Heavy light transport aircraft to China now . Which was denied before . But since they already developed the Ripoff model now they feel nothing wrong I'm selling the original aircraft . It applies to India as well.

Secondly, has IAF gone completely stupid? In this world of multi-role aircraft, and fleet consolidation, they want multiple platforms, when they have trouble keeping the biggest fleet (SU30) at or above 70% availability rate?

You are missing a basic point here . Leave the size of the aircrafts . And look into their capabilities . All are Multi role . Light , Medium , heavy MRCA .Because we are so rich to use Rafale or Sukois for usual patrol duties . These are beasts and fuel guzzlers . Nothing wrong in using different types for different duties . Which were very fruitful for us till now .Our history proves it . When we bought Mirage and Mig 29 same was told . Many questioned why to buy additional 2 platform . Why don't we go for Migs alone . Much cheaper and powerful solutions . But see what happend when we needed . During the Kargil war Availability of Mig 29 was 20% but Mirage was 80% . And it's true that Russian engines are prone to lots of minor glitches due to dusty conditions in India . It's not our inability to for 70% availability . In fact I heard it's even less don't know from where you got this 70% number . It's a problem faced by all countries including Russia China Singapore etc for keeping this guzzlers flying. But good sign is that now we are looking into this problem very seriously by this new government. We have planned to increase the availability to the strength what you have mentioned 70-80% . And so doubling our capabilities. We chose F414/404 for a reason don't you think ? Much cheaper and more powerful russian engines are at our doorsteps.

Look at the JSF F35. Previously the US Marine Corps, US Navy and US Airforce all fielded their own, specific combat aircraft. F-35 was developed to make that easy. Same aircraft across all users.
If a wealthy and powerful nation like USA (which rules the air and seas) is consolidating it's fleet (even though it doesn't need to) what makes India think that having Rafale and F-16s side by side along with M2Ks, Mig29s and SU30 will work for them?
Sure, on paper it looks good, but logistical nightmare.

Meri bhai you look at what we are already operating now .

Combat Aircraft : Mig21 , Mig 27 , Mig 29 (IAF/IN) , Jags , Mirage 2K , Sukois 30 mki . It's like we are used to it . Now think about their numbers which are massive and nightmare if an European countries have to comment . But it worked well . By adding Tejas and Rafale we will replace the space from Mig21/27. Even though I don't get MMRCA provision opted by IAF . Rather I may divide it like Hi-Lo . But again IAF has its own doctrine . THEY knows what they want better than both of us. Look what happened with Rafale deal . India cancelled MMRCA but bought 36 Rafale because IAF wanted it . So its not a problem for India . We have money and large workforce too. What's is the big deal ?

 

[Guynextdoor2]

I Really don't understand the logic behind getting a new light weight fighter. It would be better to devote that money (or a part may be) and accelerate LCA Mk 2 development and induction, even if it requires foreign consultancy. having another machine (6-7 squadrons at most) will come with whole new set of problems of maintenance, spares inventory, Flight simulator requirements etc.
It won't be a bad idea to ask a private consortium to set up assembly lines for Tejas, which can help getting more planes in service quickly while relieving HAL of some load. These lines in future can be use for LCA Mk 2 as well by upgrading.

I'm beginning to see the logic actually. Give some pieces of the IAF to different countries so that allcountries are happy. Saab gets Gripen for light category, 30 Rafale, 30 EFT, 30 Migs etc.

@Abingdonboy @Bang Galore increasingly the Rafale deal looks like the lame duck deal.

US will happily allow co-production, but not ToT like India envisions. The whole idea of selecting either the Typhoon or Rafale was that Europeans would be easy to entice for ToT......better said than done, and as seen it was a flawed narrative.

US can offer India something like they gave to Turkey......TAI was able to co produce the F-16s. But keep in mind Turkey is a strategic partner and member of NATO. India is neither.

Secondly, has IAF gone completely stupid? In this world of multi-role aircraft, and fleet consolidation, they want multiple platforms, when they have trouble keeping the biggest fleet (SU30) at or above 70% availability rate?

Look at the JSF F35. Previously the US Marine Corps, US Navy and US Airforce all fielded their own, specific combat aircraft. F-35 was developed to make that easy. Same aircraft across all users.
If a wealthy and powerful nation like USA (which rules the air and seas) is consolidating it's fleet (even though it doesn't need to) what makes India think that having Rafale and F-16s side by side along with M2Ks, Mig29s and SU30 will work for them?
Sure, on paper it looks good, but logistical nightmare.

Europeans will give TOT if it is a 120 jet deal. But not for a lameduck 36 jet deal.

 

[Bang Galore]

I increasingly the Rafale deal looks like the lame duck deal.

Pretty much decided when Antony wrote that after price negotiations with L1, go back & check whether L1 was really L1. No way anyone could have done anything with the deal after that. Pretty much also decided when IAF decided that they were the USAF where money was not an issue & picked the 2 most expensive platforms. As Parrikar asked, where the heck is the money for this coming from. Same with the proposed mountain division on the Chinese border. Parrikar has had to cut both the outlay & the size by half, Antony/UPA didn't budget the money in.

Lame duck it is.