Feminism - Equality when it suits "her"

[Jf Thunder]

..............k

 

[abdulbarijan]

@RAMPAGE
Speaking as a "critic of feminism" .. I always thought that the biggest criticism for the likes of us was either "they can't handle/are intimidated by empowered women" or "they got their hearts broken by a girl which is why they are acting out" ... This is the first time I've seen the criticism of the likes of us ... which involves us "not being in love" ...

What is love anyways ? The googly eyed love that teens or people in their early 20's have as they are having a natural reaction because of their raging hormones ..... Is that the unconditional love we all hear about and the whole tirade of promises to live together forever and ever and to fight together no matter who gets in the way ... even if its family.

5 years forward with all the things gone in their favor, the marriage is in its 3rd to 4th year ... and the boy who has now graduated to husbandhood who as a guy would live for the sight of her beautiful big brown eyes, her cute smile .... as a husband though he can't seem to stand her nagging. The girl who has become a wife, who as a girl couldn't wait to giggle while telling her friends as to how he serenaded her, or how complimentary he was or how much he made her feel loved ... That girl (now wife) is the same human being talking to the same friends about how annoying he is, how he ignores her etc etc

To me love as in love between a husband and a wife, is not simply cherishing an individual for a year and a half and then tossing the relationship to the trash bin because "you didn't know the real him/her" .. News flash, everybody will hide their weaknesses in the start which is why even though I'm not a very strict religious person, I would agree with the conservative side, that true love only blossoms after marriage. Before that .. it's all fun and games .. until ofcourse someone ends up getting hurt. Physical attraction towards the opposite gender is not love. (God forbid) if tomorrow she ends up burning her face ... or he ends up hurt or bedridden because of some disease and can't sustain the life style he once had in the past... will the guy or gal still have the same love towards each other for which the intention and proclamation was "till death do us part" ...

BTW .. there are men I know that are in loving relationships yet are quite critical of feminism . And even when I get married and love someone from the opposite gender, I'm quite sure ... my anti-feminist line of argument would remain the same ...

 

[livingdead]

OP is a crusader for men's rights.. i wish him all the luck in the world..
but to repeat myself, feminist movement is special interest movement for women, with a stated goal to achieve equality for women when they are behind men... there is no reason for them to highlight men's issues... thats not how special interest group works..
its upto men's right group to step up their game, and may be focus on men's right when they are falling behind(e.g. divorce law)...
individual feminist however can be jerk just like many from men's right group happen to be white racist male(based on youtube videos i see)

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

When guys hit back !

 

[RAMPAGE]

@RAMPAGE
Speaking as a "critic of feminism" .. I always thought that the biggest criticism for the likes of us was either "they can't handle/are intimidated by empowered women" or "they got their hearts broken by a girl which is why they are acting out" ... This is the first time I've seen the criticism of the likes of us ... which involves us "not being in love" ...

What is love anyways ? The googly eyed love that teens or people in their early 20's have as they are having a natural reaction because of their raging hormones ..... Is that the unconditional love we all hear about and the whole tirade of promises to live together forever and ever and to fight together no matter who gets in the way ... even if its family.

5 years forward with all the things gone in their favor, the marriage is in its 3rd to 4th year ... and the boy who has now graduated to husbandhood who as a guy would live for the sight of her beautiful big brown eyes, her cute smile .... as a husband though he can't seem to stand her nagging. The girl who has become a wife, who as a girl couldn't wait to giggle while telling her friends as to how he serenaded her, or how complimentary he was or how much he made her feel loved ... That girl (now wife) is the same human being talking to the same friends about how annoying he is, how he ignores her etc etc

To me love as in love between a husband and a wife, is not simply cherishing an individual for a year and a half and then tossing the relationship to the trash bin because "you didn't know the real him/her" .. News flash, everybody will hide their weaknesses in the start which is why even though I'm not a very strict religious person, I would agree with the conservative side, that true love only blossoms after marriage. Before that .. it's all fun and games .. until ofcourse someone ends up getting hurt. Physical attraction towards the opposite gender is not love. (God forbid) if tomorrow she ends up burning her face ... or he ends up hurt or bedridden because of some disease and can't sustain the life style he once had in the past... will the guy or gal still have the same love towards each other for which the intention and proclamation was "till death do us part" ...

BTW .. there are men I know that are in loving relationships yet are quite critical of feminism . And even when I get married and love someone from the opposite gender, I'm quite sure ... my anti-feminist line of argument would remain the same ...

That was putting it mildly. The actual word is women-haters.

You don't know what you say, mate. You can read a million words about love and still have no idea what it is. Dismissing it as mere physical attraction is an insult to that intricate emotion. You have seen the selfless love a mother has for her child and yet you find it so hard to believe that people are capable of such passion. You can spend decades with a person and still not know who they are. It has absolutely nothing to do with time. Different people communicate differently and their power of discernment also varies. One day, maybe, you shall sincerely wish someone else's troubles upon your own self. Maybe one day you will get hurt and wonder if it would've been better to have never known that feeling but then realize that that feeling is the most beautiful thing you have ever known and one that you do not wish to depart with at any cost.

 

[livingdead]

That was putting it mildly. The actual word is women-haters.

You don't know what you say, mate. You can read a million words about love and still have no idea what it is. Dismissing it as mere physical attraction is an insult to that intricate emotion. You have seen the selfless love a mother has for her child and yet you find it so hard to believe that people are capable of such passion. You can spend decades with a person and still not know who they are. It has absolutely nothing to do with time. Different people communicate differently and their power of discernment also varies. One day, maybe, you shall sincerely wish someone else's troubles upon your own self. Maybe one day you will get hurt and wonder if it would've been better to have never known that feeling but then realize that that feeling is the most beautiful thing you have ever known and one that you do not wish to depart with at any cost.

its possible to feel strongly about women's right as a female, and still be in loving relation with male partner.. and opposite is also possible... not all feminists are lesbians..

 

[RAMPAGE]

its possible to feel strongly about women's right as a female, and still be in loving relation with male partner.. and opposite is also possible... not all feminists are lesbians..

Sure, but you won't be as passionate about it as the OP is or that girl in the video posted on page-1.

 

[livingdead]

Sure, but you won't be as passionate about it as the OP is or that girl in the video posted on page-1.

every advocacy group has a bulk of moderates and a small number of extremists... also some people want to use hyperbole to get their point across and sometimes it works(look at most advertisements)...

 

[abdulbarijan]

That was putting it mildly. The actual word is women-haters.

You don't know what you say, mate. You can read a million words about love and still have no idea what it is. Dismissing it as mere physical attraction is an insult to that intricate emotion. You have seen the selfless love a mother has for her child and yet you find it so hard to believe that people are capable of such passion. You can spend decades with a person and still not know who they are. It has absolutely nothing to do with time. Different people communicate differently and their power of discernment also varies. One day, maybe, you shall sincerely wish someone else's troubles upon your own self. Maybe one day you will get hurt and wonder if it would've been better to have never known that feeling but then realize that that feeling is the most beautiful thing you have ever known and one that you do not wish to depart with at any cost.

So Im a "woman hater" now ? Why is criticizing a set of ideas/ a movement(FEMINISM) on a certain merit, (incidentally the merit used by that same movement i.e. equality) equal "hating" not only them but their largest representation possible (WOMEN) ... Based on your criterion the African-American people who didn't agree with the black panthers back in day were .. racist against themselves ?

Coming to your response about "love" ... you said that anyone belonging to the feminist movement or critics/woman haters had never experienced love... to which I replied to you in the context of a guy and a gal (the context of opposite sex as you originally mentioned). Now you changed the context to family/blood relations ... which leads me to believe that my assertions regarding such relationships (matrimonial) is on point, hence you didn't even bother to touch on them in your reply....

What I do find funny though is in all of your responses up until yet, none of them discredit or even touch the original points that have been made ... Your all over the place about love and all ... yet no criticism on the actual material that has been provided through this thread ... If you do have any criticisms besides judging the people who have an opinion regarding a movement ... I'd "love" to hear from you ..

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

reminds me of this
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-aborted-baby-because-boy-5143227

@RAMPAGE
my anti-feminist line of argument would remain the same ...

some might argue it wont end well for u still best of luck

 

[fallstuff]

“Feminism is about achieving equality” was what my feminist friends in class used to tell me. This was back in my Bachelor’s degree days where I was just a lazy bloke, and only a few subjects enticed my interest. Sociology was one of those subjects, and all the credit to the teacher who made it interesting enough that even the most dis-interested kids ended up getting involved in the lectures. A great chunk of the time and effort was spent on the subject of feminism. Its different types, narratives etc. and then the class would usually have a long discussion/debate session where everyone was encouraged to join in. And it was in this very discussion session where I brought up gender neutrality brought in to the English language where one shouldn’t write or say “policeman” or ”fireman” etc. instead gender neutral terms (e.g. Police officer/firefighter) should be used following it up with a question;

“How come in today’s world, gender neutrality in the language is strictly observed except for the name for the very movement that is a huge proponent to this very idea i.e. “fem-inism”?…

The whole class went into a brief moment of silence where I saw few of my feminist class fellows struggling to come up with some sort of an argument. Since then, I’ve encountered many answers to this question and explanations over different forums almost all of which boil down to “Feminism is indeed for equality however it's primarily a women’s advocacy group because the gender being denied and oppressed is female.” Going by this explanation, the same feminism that talks of battling sexism and achieving equality, effectively alienates and denies representation to the suffering of nearly 50% of the world population based on … yes! That’s right… GENDER.. Talk about irony!

The idea that female suffrage should take precedence over male suffrage because allegedly one is more important then the other is not an argument that should be made … especially by a movement that claims to be for equality. But how does one determine, if there is inequality in a specific situation. Subjects such as the wage gap, less women in STEM subjects etc. are hot topics because the statistics of the outcomes show a disparity. Let’s take a few of these statistics. A report covering the STEM subject disparity shows that just 14.4% of the STEM (Science/technology/Engineering/Maths) workforce happens to be female. The report establishes this statistic as a “problem”. It then goes out and states another problematic statistic that only 28% of the researcher population of the world is female. However, it talks of Bolivia as a “positive exception” where female researchers account for 63% of the research population.

Based on this case, if the outcomes shown by statistics are not in favor of women, that’s a problem. However, If the outcomes shown by statistics of the SAME CATEGORY are not in favor of men it’s considered positive... Equality right?

Let’s look at some other statistics.. While wage gap is another hot topic in the feminist movement, research (in the west) suggests that women in their 20’s out earn men.. No talks of discrimination there. While equal pay is the talk in sports but the fact that there are fields where the gender wage gap reverses in the favor of women is something I’ve never seen feminists bring up. Add to that these haunting statistics (given at the end of this thread) and the fact that there is literally no representation for these issues, heck the people that try to bring up these issues are targeted and such talks disrupted. Consider the following and you get why less and less people today are identifying as feminists.

Warning: Very Strong language

Statistics:

1. Men are 97% of combat fatalities.
2. Men make 94% of work suicides.
3. Men lose custody in 84% of divorces.
4. 80% of all suicides are men.
5. 77% of homicide victims are men.
6. 89% of men will be the victim of at least one violent crime.
7. Men are over twice as victimised by strangers as women.
8. Men get 63% longer sentences than women for the same crime.
9. Boys face vastly more corporal punishment than girls.
10. 60-80% of the homeless are men.
    
    Read more at : http://www.realsexism.com/

Just by the virtue of opening this thread you have committed a cardinal sin, some feminist would love to call you a misogynist !!!

 

[livingdead]

reminds me of this
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-aborted-baby-because-boy-5143227


some might argue it wont end well for u still best of luck

you can see not many women supporting the crazy woman...

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

you can see not many women supporting the crazy woman...

thats not the issue no sane person would
its just such mentality exists and people do support it
and i just remembered something equality is one thing but complaining about every single thing like this is just retarted

 

[abdulbarijan]

OP is a crusader for men's rights.. i wish him all the luck in the world..
but to repeat myself, feminist movement is special interest movement for women, with a stated goal to achieve equality for women when they are behind men... there is no reason for them to highlight men's issues... thats not how special interest group works..
its upto men's right group to step up their game, and may be focus on men's right when they are falling behind(e.g. divorce law)...
individual feminist however can be jerk just like many from men's right group happen to be white racist male(based on youtube videos i see)

Hey there,

Nice seeing you again .. so let me start off by stating my position clearly ... I'm not a "crusader for men's rights" ... What I believe primarily is a gender role framework for the society. However, with the changing culture and environment, the expectancy for such a framework is going out of the picture ... What we're left with is the western framework which is highly influenced by the modern version of feminism ... to which I say ... "I'd rather have equality"..

Coming to your argument with regards to feminism. Let me simply quote Gloria Steinem, easily among the most influential and iconic feminists of the last century and certainly the biggest feminist icon of the last 40 years. According to her "A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women AND MEN." Notice the inclusion of men in the equation, and you can easily find a number of articles even books that argue that feminism is for both men and women. The basic premise of the argument is more or less that feminism is fighting the patriarchy, and since the patriarchy (according to feminists) negatively influence men as well, feminism is fighting for both men and women. Hence it's for everybody...

Even if you take men out of the equation, at the end of the day... feminism as argued by feminists is about "equality" ... yet when women are superior in one or more spheres of life, you never hear about that ... not from this modern breed of "equality loving" feminists atleast.

Lastly, there are indeed feminists that truly believe in EQUALITY, I've no problem with them at all. e.g.Dr.Christina Hoff Sommers, and Professor Camille Paglia .Heck even Dr. Warren Farrel was once among the crop of people considered "influential feminists" back in the 70's when he worked with N.O.W. as a member of the BOD.However such feminists are a few and far between

some might argue it wont end well for u still best of luck

 

[livingdead]

Hey there,

Nice seeing you again .. so let me start off by stating my position clearly ... I'm not a "crusader for men's rights" ... What I believe primarily is a gender role framework for the society. However, with the changing culture and environment, the expectancy for such a framework is going out of the picture ... What we're left with is the western framework which is highly influenced by the modern version of feminism ... to which I say ... "I'd rather have equality"..

Coming to your argument with regards to feminism. Let me simply quote Gloria Steinem, easily among the most influential and iconic feminists of the last century and certainly the biggest feminist icon of the last 40 years. According to her "A feminist is anyone who recognizes the equality and full humanity of women AND MEN." Notice the inclusion of men in the equation, and you can easily find a number of articles even books that argue that feminism is for both men and women. The basic premise of the argument is more or less that feminism is fighting the patriarchy, and since the patriarchy (according to feminists) negatively influence men as well, feminism is fighting for both men and women. Hence it's for everybody...

Even if you take men out of the equation, at the end of the day... feminism as argued by feminists is about "equality" ... yet when women are superior in one or more spheres of life, you never hear about that ... not atleast from this modern breed of "equality loving" feminists atleast.

Lastly, there are indeed feminists that truly believe in EQUALITY, I've no problem with them at all. e.g.Dr.Christina Hoff Sommers, and Professor Camille Paglia .Heck even Dr. William Farrel was once among the crop of people considered "influential feminists" back in the 70's when he worked with N.O.W. as a member of the BOD.However such feminists are a few and far between

based on your post history and advocacy of men's right I thought you belong to such movement.. my bad... but i dont see anything wrong being a proponent of such movement...
may be there is an equal rights movement which we all can join but i think the stated goal will be too vague for it to be of any influence... it will remain a hippy group.
irrespective of what influential feminist thinker say about equal rights, if you see the history how it came about, its was not an 'all inclusive equal rights' movement... women were indeed in bad shape and in that context we should see what equality these women were trying for.
i say this for all other special interest group... workers right movement.. black right movement.... these can bring real change due to the sharp focus on the issues they fight for...