FC-20 needs a partner!

[SBD-3]

J-10 the Sinocanards
The pinnacle of indigenous Chinese fighter design is the Chengdu J-10, a single engine delta-canard agile multirole fighter which was alleged to be a clone of the IAI Lavi design, enhanced through alleged access to Pakistani F-16A examples. Even cursory comparison of the J-10 and Lavi indicates that 'Lavi-cloning' is not the case, even if the fighters share the same general configuration [1], [2]. The nose and vertical tail shape are however near enough to the F-16 to raise serious questions.

Development of the J-10 commenced in 1988, with the first prototype flying in 1996, and production planned to commence in 2005. The J-10 occupies the same niche as the F-16C/D/E/F and the Rafale, being smaller than the F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter. It is to form the low end of a hi-lo mix with the Su-27SK/J-11/Su-30MKK and be used for air combat and strike roles, replacing the J-6, Q-5 and J-7 in frontline combat regiments.

Early models are powered by the Russian AL-31F common to the Su-27/30, with Chinse sources claiming the indigenous WS-10 fan will be introduced later. The design is claimed to use a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire control system, a glass cockpit similar in layout to the Gripen is employed, and a HMS is expected to be used. Chinese sources claim the Phazotron Zhuk series and indigenous JL-10A to be the likely candidate radars for production.

The J-10 represents an important milestone for China's industry - it is modern combat aircraft competitive in cardinal parameters with current EU production technology, and is clearly a unique indigenous design despite the comments of Western critics. Just like the Su-27/MiG-29 blended the best ideas in the teen series types, the J-10 blends the best ideas from the Eurocanard series and the F-16, to produce a high performance low cost mass production fighter. While the J-10 will not have the strategic impact of the long range Sukhois, it is well matched to the PLA-AF's established Soviet-like all-arms warfare doctrine, providing local air superiority over land forces and close air support / battlefield interdiction capabilities. With the likelihood of large scale production, we could see in time well over a thousand airframes built and exports made to various established PRC clients in the region.

In close combat the J-10 is apt to match or outperform the teen series fighters, and match the Eurocanards. Its principal limitation will be in its sizing and combat radius performance - the top end roles being ceded to the Sukhois.


With the J-10 China has finally joined the club of nations capable of designing a modern agile combat aircraft.

Chengdu J-10 Sinocanard

---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

J-10 the Sinocanards
The pinnacle of indigenous Chinese fighter design is the Chengdu J-10, a single engine delta-canard agile multirole fighter which was alleged to be a clone of the IAI Lavi design, enhanced through alleged access to Pakistani F-16A examples. Even cursory comparison of the J-10 and Lavi indicates that 'Lavi-cloning' is not the case, even if the fighters share the same general configuration [1], [2]. The nose and vertical tail shape are however near enough to the F-16 to raise serious questions.

Development of the J-10 commenced in 1988, with the first prototype flying in 1996, and production planned to commence in 2005. The J-10 occupies the same niche as the F-16C/D/E/F and the Rafale, being smaller than the F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter. It is to form the low end of a hi-lo mix with the Su-27SK/J-11/Su-30MKK and be used for air combat and strike roles, replacing the J-6, Q-5 and J-7 in frontline combat regiments.

Early models are powered by the Russian AL-31F common to the Su-27/30, with Chinse sources claiming the indigenous WS-10 fan will be introduced later. The design is claimed to use a quadruplex digital fly-by-wire control system, a glass cockpit similar in layout to the Gripen is employed, and a HMS is expected to be used. Chinese sources claim the Phazotron Zhuk series and indigenous JL-10A to be the likely candidate radars for production.

The J-10 represents an important milestone for China's industry - it is modern combat aircraft competitive in cardinal parameters with current EU production technology, and is clearly a unique indigenous design despite the comments of Western critics. Just like the Su-27/MiG-29 blended the best ideas in the teen series types, the J-10 blends the best ideas from the Eurocanard series and the F-16, to produce a high performance low cost mass production fighter. While the J-10 will not have the strategic impact of the long range Sukhois, it is well matched to the PLA-AF's established Soviet-like all-arms warfare doctrine, providing local air superiority over land forces and close air support / battlefield interdiction capabilities. With the likelihood of large scale production, we could see in time well over a thousand airframes built and exports made to various established PRC clients in the region.

In close combat the J-10 is apt to match or outperform the teen series fighters, and match the Eurocanards. Its principal limitation will be in its sizing and combat radius performance - the top end roles being ceded to the Sukhois.


With the J-10 China has finally joined the club of nations capable of designing a modern agile combat aircraft.

Chengdu J-10 Sinocanard

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hey then pakistan should learn its lessons from the past and drop Erieye Type-214 new F-16 and other High tech deals in favor of "export" variant of "chinese" equipments?

Can you really relate your reply to what i said in my post? What you are saying here is totally irrelevent to what i said in my reply. But still waiting for some elaboration.

I thought they realized that back in the days when PAF was massively out numbered.

PAF is still out numbered massively. I was just referring that it is first time PAF has come up with right idea to change this years old situation viz-a-viz IAF in context of numbers.

This is your assumption. But let me enlighten you, If we do drop our eggs over and over again in one basket "China" i can grantee you that India will have a better MRCA. At the end of the day, India has the boeing deal Super Hornet in mind. Those who say India will have a split of EF Rafale Mig-35 are nothing but fools and understand nothing.

So what you are suggesting that MMRCA is last deal India will ever sign. In short term yeah you might be right that IAF will end up with better plane. but in long run this will not remain same. It is not putting egg in one basket it is about availability of weapon systems, economics dynamics, geopolitical situations etc. PAF need a long run solution. And again do u really thing that I am just assuming that IAF will response to any PAF move in this regard? No my dear it is not just my assumption. The movement PAF sign any such deal whole Indian media will start crying along with their cabinet members for more planes. So how long PAF will able to keep on buying new fighters from West?

If this was even a concern then PAF would have never invested in western technology which they are still doing.
What ever we are buying from west comes with spares and spare. No wonder why the new F-16 deal costs so much.

And why PAF F-16 were not able to fly in Kargil? I think reason was same again and i am talking about "real war times" not the times we are fighting WoT within our borders. Real war mean against India.

uhh let me see.
Type-214 (TOT)
Erieye (TOT)
i think enough being said. If pakistan can get the most powerful conventional sub from Germany then i dont think Rafale is an issue which we are all trying to make with blind hatred and generalization.

U-214 with TOT, Erieye with TOT... are you kidding me??
I think French Agosta was also with ToT..So can we made one on our own? Answer is NO. We can just make some parts of it and U-214 would be same story.
Rafale... Doesn't fit in AFMP-2019. It is nothing to do with hatred it is me who is asking rafale for Pakistan Navy.

If China is willing to help us with funding so PAF is using this opportunity, i dough the reason is that PAF is in any sort of debt yet.

And neither it is in any surplus with its finance dept. Actually PAF had to request after government was reluctant to do so.

If pakistan was a rich country then what you are saying would not have been the case today.

Agreed. but fact is we are poor country so will have to adopt accordingly.

And remarkably only the western equipments like AMRAAM Erieye will give us the advantage that we need. I dough SD-10 or ZDK-03 can provide even 50% of that.

Now that is your thinking... If ask you will not able to support your blind claim of this "50% of that". Nothing wrong with Western systems as long as they are available with least possible hassle.

Quality over quantity

Great... But only problem in this particular scenario is IAF also know this damn thing.

typically blind patriotism for China.

So do you have any other way forward in mind to match IAF numbers and quality with Pakistani economics?? Any thoughts, Mr. All knowing! And i am Pakistani not Chinese. It is just China is only 100% or near 100% "reliable" arm supplier.

And you think china can do that over night? you know what PAF officer told me. We buy chinese equipment because they are cheap not becuase they are best bang for the buck.

When did I said this will happen over night. Order 60 Rafale even those will take good amount of time. Yes, Afford is word you must consider here. In present economic situation it is only Chinese things we can afford. Agreed there as well. Now other argument is debatable if China provide us some low quality things. Can you give any example please.

Mind you PAF defense is "OFFENSE".

WoW... This is a news to me and I believe many other here. Can you give one single such statement to back your claim?

but i thought F-16s would be stuck in hangers during war as uncle sam will have the magic button.

If we look at our old fleet which is going under MLU I am not aware of their spares so this can very much a possibility what you said for those F-16s. New one will have their spares, I know. But old ones I am not much sure.

if it has 10+ AAM then it is very capable to do so..

Yeah If it has 10 AAMs it can be over Kabul and Qandhar at same time. Or Over Karachi and over Lahore at same time

WHY there is no comments of your on Navy require Rafale part of my post. I think you also agree with me over there

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Can you really relate your reply to what i said in my post? What you are saying here is totally irrelevent to what i said in my reply. But still waiting for some elaboration.

PAF is still out numbered massively. I was just referring that it is first time PAF has come up with right idea to change this years old situation viz-a-viz IAF in context of numbers.

In 1965 PAF hardly had 120 operational fighter/bombers while india had well over 800. PAF 2019 AFM ambition is to raise about 450 combat strength while about 1000 for IAF.

So what you are suggesting that MMRCA is last deal India will ever sign.

the future lies on UCAV so its quite possible.... but as for today.. Super Hornet is coming their way which mind you is even superior to MKI. FC-20 can not cope both superior platforms on its own so qualitative edge is needed, which has been done in the past when F-104 were acquired in limited numbers which proved to be a very lethal combination with F-86.
Potential air threats for PAF southern air command in near future.
- MKI
- Super Hornet
- Mig-29K
- Naval LCA?
I highly dough out numbered JF-17 and FC-20 can cope with this threat.

any such deal whole Indian media will start crying along with their cabinet members for more planes. So how long PAF will able to keep on buying new fighters from West?

let them cry. no one listens to cry babies, and as long as we are getting our F-16s Type-214 Erieye and other advance western systems pakistan is satisfied.

And why PAF F-16 were not able to fly in Kargil? I think reason was same again and i am talking about "real war times" not the times we are fighting WoT within our borders. Real war mean against India.

Do you even know why?
PAF avoided full fledged conflict and our F-16s were not equipped with BVR AAM and the reason is not that uncle sam had the magic button in their hand and switch off our F-16s and made them impotent.

U-214 with TOT, Erieye with TOT... are you kidding me??
I think French Agosta was also with ToT..So can we made one on our own? Answer is NO. We can just make some parts of it and U-214 would be same story.

Yaar with all due respect, get your facts right before you argue. And TOT does not mean we earn the rights to produce unlimited amount of units we want. And the word TOT does not always associate with earning superior technology so if PAF does not get one for Erieye it is still way superior to ZDK-03 wit TOT.

Rafale... Doesn't fit in AFMP-2019. It is nothing to do with hatred it is me who is asking rafale for Pakistan Navy.

just curious, do you work for the AHQ?

Now that is your thinking... If ask you will not able to support your blind claim of this "50% of that". Nothing wrong with Western systems as long as they are available with least possible hassle.

US has spent billions of dollars on AMRAAM R&D and obviously their technology is superior to Chinese. Same could be said about Erieye, Sweden has superior AEW technology then China.

numbers and quality with Pakistani economics?? Any thoughts, Mr. All knowing! And i am Pakistani not Chinese. It is just China is only 100% or near 100% "reliable" arm supplier.

And unfortunately we still can not get access to most of their "domestic" production line on time.

Order 60 Rafale even those will take good amount of time. Yes, Afford is word you must consider here.

Who is asking for 60? the number is too much.

In present economic situation it is only Chinese things we can afford.

No thats not right.
We have got access to Swedish top of the line AEW system and Top of the line German conventional submarine and mind you we are not getting older version type-209 but the entirely new Type-214.

Agreed there as well. Now other argument is debatable if China provide us some low quality things. Can you give any example please.

Their is a dedicated F-22p thread on this regard which i made.

WoW... This is a news to me and I believe many other here. Can you give one single such statement to back your claim?

seriously you are asking for this? its a very well known fact.

If we look at our old fleet which is going under MLU I am not aware of their spares so this can very much a possibility what you said for those F-16s. New one will have their spares, I know. But old ones I am not much sure.

And why is that PAF will ask spares for only new F-16s and not for MLU?

WHY there is no comments of your on Navy require Rafale part of my post. I think you also agree with me over there

we have already debated with sir Muradk about raising a independent Naval MRCA squadron and the answer was no.

 

[batmannow]

only , solution J-11Bs modifiyed it, at least 100, planes!
thts it!
thts the best , we can go!

 

[Sapper]

only , solution J-11Bs modifiyed it, at least 100, planes!
thts it!
thts the best , we can go!

The best thing to do is to save money for now ... and continue to build on the projects we are already working on.

1. FC-1
2. F16
3. FC-20

and use the saved money to upgrade directly to 5th Gen Tech as soon as it is available.

4. J-XX

 

[Myth_buster_1]

4. J-XX

Like i have factually mentioned earlier. China would never export top of the line top secret domestic product with other countries be it Pakistan. J-XX induction in PAF any time sooner then 2025 is a long fetch hope for us. Either they will offer us a dedicated export model quite different from domestic or make us wait 7-10 years when China finally decides that it is no longer a secret and are willing to share the technology with a friendly close ally.
Another option for pakistan could be.
- South Korea
- Some where from Europe
- Or by some miracle PAK-US relations of early 1980s repeats and US agrees for F-35 and of course we approach Turkey for production.

Their should be multipul options going on in PAF's head.

 

[naseebkhanniazi]

The best thing to do is to save money for now ... and continue to build on the projects we are already working on.

1. FC-1
2. F16
3. FC-20

and use the saved money to upgrade directly to 5th Gen Tech as soon as it is available.

4. J-XX

i agree with you
you are right
and its also help to save money from zardari to delay the deals
may be after completing of j xx devlopment pakistan is free from zardari

 

[Righteous_Fire]

and use the saved money to upgrade directly to 5th Gen Tech as soon as it is available.
4. J-XX

"How soon is that "soon" ?? !!!! , by best guesses, that "soon" for "us" can be 2025, "Do you know what India will actually have in IAF by 2025??. Such a strategy will be disastrous for PAF and Pakistan. That is why, they aren't following it.

China would never export top of the line top secret domestic product with other countries be it Pakistan.

I can guarantee you that China wont. But this is not bad or evil on their part, there are genuine reasons for it:

1) Like that Uncle of ours, they would rather stay safe by exporting tech at least 7-10 years older, just like Uncle does with Europe or other allies.

2) Doing so, protects strategic and tactical policies and interests. Think about it, "If your enemy knew how far in tech you actually are, then you are as good as your latest weapons", this is where China lacks compared to the Uncle, so it would be natural to protect it.

3) With their latest weaponry in our hands, you guys have said it yourself how many guys in the Govt. are not generally viewed with trust. Like .... you know who I am talking about. "If we can have kaalaa paani waalay, in smaller or larger numbers even when there presence is denied, what can prevent these latest Chinese assets from being not spied upon by Uncle"??

Another option for pakistan could be.
- South Korea
- Some where from Europe

South Korea is a poor choice, Europe however is much more suitable and logical.

- Or by some miracle PAK-US relations of early 1980s repeats and US agrees for F-35 and of course we approach Turkey for production.

The operative word here Growler, is "some miracle" !!!!, what are the odds of miracles happening?? ..........

i agree with you
you are right
and its also help to save money from zardari to delay the deals
may be after completing of j xx devlopment pakistan is free from zardari

By that time, as you said, waiting it out, we will have lost precious years, remember, the PAF has already lost 2 decades, in that time, the IAF has advanced so much that by comparison we look like an African Air Force, "By sacrificing even more years, we will be committing suicides"!!!.

 

[naseebkhanniazi]

i agree righteous inshallah PAF fulfill the gap but it take's time
i am sure

 

[Myth_buster_1]

"How soon is that "soon" ?? !!!! , by best guesses, that "soon" for "us" can be 2025, "Do you know what India will actually have in IAF by 2025??. Such a strategy will be disastrous for PAF and Pakistan. That is why, they aren't following it.

Lets hope both of us are wrong on that and China does provides par with their domestic stealth Fighter on time.

I can guarantee you that China wont. But this is not bad or evil on their part, there are genuine reasons for it:

But but I thought China was like our best friend and such friend ship is one in a million country? of course their are not a million countries
But Hey, couple of years after the induction of F-16 A/B in USAF this state of the art possibly the best fighter of that time were also sold to PAF with one of the best armament package! But what happend after is another story. Turkey on the other hand is willing to provide Pakistan Milgem Corvettes which is also their state secret project so what happened to Pak-China friendship?

South Korea is a poor choice, Europe however is much more suitable and logical.

Hey dont under estimate South Korean defence R&D.
K2 is perhaps the best tank in Asia and one of the best of the world!

As far as i know South Korea do have a ambition of indigenous semi stealth fighter superior to EF and Rafale (defence analysts claim) and even export it! latest news revel that such plan have been dropped but could it be they are working with secrecy behind doors? Or a dedicated export production line could be opened for specific customers with limited budget?

 

[Storm Force]

Stick to J10 & JF17 but obtain western upgrades of radars and weapons and jammers.

Finally pick up as many second hand F16s as possible from USA & europe which will be on offer as nations globally induct JSF F35.

 

[muse]

Storm FOrce

I think what you have suggested is what will happen because it makes sense. Some in our forum speak of aircraft as if they are stand alone, they are not, they are a part of a system, a complex and expensive architecture.

 

[PakShaheen79]

In 1965 PAF hardly had 120 operational fighter/bombers while india had well over 800. PAF 2019 AFM ambition is to raise about 450 combat strength while about 1000 for IAF.

So? You proved that IAF will be still ahead in Numbers that is exactly what i said. This is first time PAF has find a reliable source of weapon system who will help in reduce quantitative edge or let me say it who will help in gain some quantative balance viz-a-viz IAF numbers to keep deny IAF decisive 3 to 1 ration to PAF. Which is critical for a defensive force like PAF.

the future lies on UCAV so its quite possible....

How you define future... Has USAF inducted UCAVs? It will but not gonna happen in next 20 years in South Asia.

but as for today.. Super Hornet is coming their way which mind you is even superior to MKI. FC-20 can not cope both superior platforms on its own so qualitative edge is needed, which has been done in the past when F-104 were acquired in limited numbers which proved to be a very lethal combination with F-86.

Agreed. Quantative solution is required but with numbers as well as both MKI and SH will be in numbers (230+126=365)... So who is going to give these planes with numbers to PAF with current economics????
Uncle...NO,
France...NO, (Want to sell its jets but always demands money upfront)
UK... NO,
Germany...NO,
Russia, NOt at all
China... Again. It is only option we finished with. It is not that they have best solution FACT is this is only solution (We don't have a choice here)

Potential air threats for PAF southern air command in near future.
- MKI
- Super Hornet
- Mig-29K
- Naval LCA?

I highly dough out numbered JF-17 and FC-20 can cope with this threat.

Definitely they can't. That's why Rafale is required with Pakistan Navy.

let them cry. no one listens to cry babies, and as long as we are getting our F-16s Type-214 Erieye and other advance western systems pakistan is satisfied.

Everyone listen whenever Indian cries, as they offer a big pocket. P-8I, MMRCA, Scorpean subs, Russian Nuclear Subs, Phalcon AWACS, etc. I think more qualitative stuff is going there as well and in much more numbers than we will have.

Do you even know why?
PAF avoided full fledged conflict and our F-16s were not equipped with BVR AAM and the reason is not that uncle sam had the magic button in their hand and switch off our F-16s and made them impotent.

So you are saying sanctions never hindered out F-16 fleet during 1990s?

Yaar with all due respect, get your facts right before you argue. And TOT does not mean we earn the rights to produce unlimited amount of units we want. And the word TOT does not always associate with earning superior technology so if PAF does not get one for Erieye it is still way superior to ZDK-03 wit TOT.

It was you who jump on Erieye with ToT, U-214 with TOT not me... Just scroll up and read once again what u write. Stop twisting my words.

just curious, do you work for the AHQ?

No. But have read that document. No Western fighter till 2019.

US has spent billions of dollars on AMRAAM R&D and obviously their technology is superior to Chinese. Same could be said about Erieye, Sweden has superior AEW technology then China.

And China built their AEW with out spending a penny so their technology is inferior. Bhai meray these thinks works on principles of "Physics" (Ever Heard of it) and these principles are same all over. If making AWACS has some certain principles both China and US will have to stick with them. Only issue with Chinese systems are they are not matured like US/West. Can't understand how words like Superior and Inferior come in technology.

And unfortunately we still can not get access to most of their "domestic" production line on time.

Can we do that with Western vendors?

Who is asking for 60? the number is too much.

Again you ignored AFFORD word here.

No thats not right.
We have got access to Swedish top of the line AEW system and Top of the line German conventional submarine and mind you we are not getting older version type-209 but the entirely new Type-214.

Top of the line German sub is U-212A not U-214. U212A has non-magnetic hull.. Why did Germany not offer that? Any idea?? But still not taking away anything from U-214.. It is best thing for Navy.

Their is a dedicated F-22p thread on this regard which i made.

Yeah checked that... Good one but you never proved your point there as well.

seriously you are asking for this? its a very well known fact.

No. I am little carious how in future 450 fighters air force (Without any dedicated strike plateform) will go offensive towards a 1000 fighters IAF? Tactical strikes on some airbases doesn't mean it is your doctrine. If PAF in war comes to know about MKI are preparing on Srinagar airbase but there are also some in air and IAF has formed a SAM net around it backed by Greenpine radars... What you think PAF will carry out another Pathankot like strike of (1965)? No dear that's not gonna happen until those radars and SAM would taken care of.

And why is that PAF will ask spares for only new F-16s and not for MLU?

That's what i want to learn how many spares we did order for our old fleet?

we have already debated with sir Muradk about raising a independent Naval MRCA squadron and the answer was no.

This is interesting. What was points...please can you tell me about that threat on forum wanna see that.

 

[Rank]

IAF

MKI (Quality/Quantity)
MMRCA (Quailty/Quantity)
Mig 29 and others (Quantity/No Comments)
Phalcon AWACS (Quality)
C130 (Quality)
IL78 & 76 (Quality/Quantity)


NAVY

N-SUbs (Quality)
Frigates (Quality/Quantity)
Aircraft Carrier (So So)


as compare to PAF

PAF

F16 (Quality but old) After MLU (Quality)
Mirage series and F7 (Just ok)
JF17 and J10 (Cant say Anything)
KJ200 (No Comments)
F16 Block 50/52 (Quality)
SAAB AWACS (Quality)
Chinees AWACS (No Comments)
IL 78 (Quality)
Transport C130 (Quality but outdated now)


NAVY

Frigates (Old)
F22 (No Comments)
German U214 (Quality)


If you see in real specs Now we are lackin in Quality also and Quantity we never achieve. Atleast we save some money and spend on QUALITY products rather thn spending on Chinees product. We should go for RAFALE After IAF MMRCA if available or any other quality products we are much lacking in quality now.

 

[PakShaheen79]

IAF

MKI (Quality/Quantity)
MMRCA (Quailty/Quantity)
Mig 29 and others (Quantity/No Comments)
Phalcon AWACS (Quality)
C130 (Quality)
IL78 & 76 (Quality/Quantity)


NAVY

N-SUbs (Quality)
Frigates (Quality/Quantity)
Aircraft Carrier (So So)


as compare to PAF

PAF

F16 (Quality but old)
Mirage series and F7 (Just ok)
JF17 and J10 (Cant say Anything)
KJ200 (No Comments)
F16 Block 50/52 (Quality)
SAAB AWACS (Quality)
Chinees AWACS (No Comments)
IL 78 (Quality)
Transport C130 (Quality but outdated now)


NAVY

Frigates (Old)
F22 (No Comments)
German U214 (Quality)


If you see in real specs Now we are lackin in Quality also and Quantity we never achieve. Atleast we save some money and spend on QUALITY products rather thn spending on Chinees product. We should go for RAFALE After IAF MMRCA if available or any other quality products we are much lacking in quality now.

On Pakistani part I want to beg to differ a bit with this...
F16 (Quality) as these will be upgraded.
Mirage series and F7 (Just ok)
JF17 and J10 (Quantity/Quality ) Based on what u said about Mirages and F-7.
KJ200 (No Comments)
F16 Block 50/52 (Quality)
SAAB AWACS (Quality/Quantity)
Chinees AWACS (No Comments)
IL 78 (Quality)
Transport C130 (Quality but outdated now)


NAVY

Frigates (Old)
F22 (No Comments)
German U214 (Quality/Quantity)
Agosta-90B (Quality)


Then there is a big "IF" in your post regarding Rafale which is sadly very true. Let's wait and see what comes out of MMRCA? But even after that i don't see Rafale in PAF colors anytime soon. (b4 2019)