FC-1 (JF-17) powered by WS-13 engine carries Taxi Trials

[Hyde]

Great news!

Go Chinese brothers go - now invent the latest (western) radar for us

 

[Haanzo]

Do you know for how many decades China has been manufacturing aircraft engines and how many simultaneous programs they have for future turbofan engines. Can you also enlighten me why is it necessary to bring India into equation every time a Chinese or Pakistani development is discussed?

Waiting for your reply...

WE ARE TRADITIONAL ENEMIES AND NEIGHBOURS TOO ..... I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A FAR COUNTRY LIKE ISRAEL HERE LIKE MANY OTHER MEMBERS .....this is reality we compete in military , technology ,economy ......this is the fact of life so we are related even though we might not like each other

china has been manufacturing engines for decades ..... that does not mean it can build an engine which is competitive in the international market yet ....this is still 3-5 years away

 

[k7x]

I really like the attitude of people here..

"They are just facing some problem with turbine engine blades and soon they will over come" .

But the problem is turbine blades are heart of the engine and it is not like a Godzilla to grow and mature fast.. you have to test it 1000s of hours to prove its reliability.

If it happens then China can turn towards Russia and say . china will be totally indipendent..


It seems by the time China matures in SC tech, the western engines will have ceramic core... So you know you have to run very fast to stay where you are now a days.


With Money and Power china will be doing all this thing much ahead of any other country in the vicinity .

 

[Haanzo]

I really like the attitude of people here..

in case of china this is base standard ....but for india this will be gold standard ....speakin of DS ...it wont go anywhere

 

[MastanKhan]

the WS-13 has a long way to go, before it is accepted good enough to power a war machine.
The problem is not just with the blades, that is a symptom event only.
the root cause of the problem is lack of experience in metallurgical sciences and fabrication technology.
Even if that technology is acquired as we speak now, it will take years to go through the quality cycles, to get to more than 4 digit accuracy !
Any thing less then that, is not even worth mentioning for an air craft.

Hi,

At least some one understands the predicament---it is a mountain to climb and a very tall and treacherous one at that.

 

[thunder rules]

 

[Schindler]

Why pakistan potraying JF-17 as main jet fighter? Isn't F-16 better than JF-17? PDF full of JF-17 threads. To much of importance is given to JF-17 when pakistan need to think even bigger as ur rival owns Sukhoi-30mki, latest mig-29s, mirages, soon Typhoon or Rafael and ofcourse FGFA and PAK-FA (double and single seater). Concentrating of JF-17 is good but you can't pitch JF-17 against the fighter jets of rival i mentioned above.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Why pakistan potraying JF-17 as main jet fighter?

Maybe because it will serve as the work-horse/backbone fighter of the PAF for the time to come, as we slowly phase out older aircrafts

Please review the PAF Modernization Program, to be realized by 2015. There are thousands if not tens of thousands of threads on this subject.

Isn't F-16 better than JF-17?

it's a more potent fighter; but JF-17 Thunder easily compares to early B/C Block 30/40 models.

Once again, many threads on this subject.

JF-17 Thunder is still a relatively new platform, with huge room for further upgradations modifications and improvements

To much of importance is given to JF-17

If we had this forum even 1-2 decades back, we'd be full of J-7 and Mirage-III Threads rather than F-16 threads.

It has nothing to do with giving importance. Every single aircraft serving the PAF (Pakistan) is extremely important! Not just purely combat aircrafts! They each have their own specific role.

when pakistan need to think even bigger as ur rival owns Sukhoi-30mki, latest mig-29s, mirages, soon Typhoon or Rafael and ofcourse FGFA and PAK-FA (double and single seater).

We are inducting brand new F-16C/D Block 52s, and upgrading older F-solas to the exact same specification and standard (save for the engines). Those are there to keep the flankers in check.

(many threads on this subject)

you dont own Typhoon, or Rafael; FGFA is nowhere to be seen; and there are no PAK-FAs (''double and single seater) in your IAF fleet.

Don't get ahead of yourselves. Furthermore, don't forget that in medium run we will also be inducting FC-20 from China, and those will be very capable aircrafts in order to confront new challenges.




PAF is a very reactionary and alert service. We (Pakistan) dont take threats lightly. indias arms buildup is alarming, and we made a promise to keep a counter on enemy movements and maneuvers.

Concentrating of JF-17 is good but you can't pitch JF-17 against the fighter jets of rival i mentioned above.

really? why not? Are we talking about 1 vs. 1 combat or are we talking about attrition here


your workhorse (Mig-21/bison) are to be phased out soon, as your air force has suffered SCORES of crashes in the past few years due to poor maintenance. Are the replacement (LCA) being inducted in any squadrons lately?









you've already lost 3-4 Sukhois in crashes as well




in non-combat situations

 

[Super Falcon]

it might be the same engine of mig 29 i think for JF 17

 

[SurvivoR]

Why pakistan potraying JF-17 as main jet fighter? Isn't F-16 better than JF-17? PDF full of JF-17 threads. To much of importance is given to JF-17 when pakistan need to think even bigger as ur rival owns Sukhoi-30mki, latest mig-29s, mirages, soon Typhoon or Rafael and ofcourse FGFA and PAK-FA (double and single seater). Concentrating of JF-17 is good but you can't pitch JF-17 against the fighter jets of rival i mentioned above.

Well, actually we won't be counting on either the F-16 or the JF-17 or even the J-10B/FC20... We would be counting on your IAF pilots... LOL

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

it might be the same engine of mig 29 i think for JF 17

the RD-93 being currently used is a modified derivative of the RD-33 used by the Migs

 

[sancho]

You are in think tank rank and he is a new member that asked some questions, don't you think it would have been better to answer him, or just tell him where he might find his answers?

Besides that, he is not wrong at all, there are many people that simply overestimates JF 17s potential and believing in stealth version, with TVC, over 100kN engine latest AESA and so on, while not even the 2 batches with 4. gen capabilities are operational.
If you say MMRCAs, or Pak Fa are not near, you must also admit that these kind of JF 17 are not even under evaluation at PAF too.

In generall you can see the same hype of JF 17 with LCA in the several Indian forums to, the reason is simple, proud! People are proud of the indigenous development, no matter how far in development it is, if other aircrafts are clearly more capable and so on. That is ok of course, but often makes one blind for the reality too.

you've already lost 3-4 Sukhois in crashes as well in non-combat situations

First of all it were only 2 crashes and already sounds like we bought the first Su 30s yesterday, but in reality we have them in service for more than a decade, so they have a pretty good reliability don't you think?

 

[araz]

the dificult part was to redesign the jf-17 for ws-13

it is done only testing is remaining

Care to elaborate as most of us thought that WS13 would not have needed a redesign of thunder.
Regards
Araz

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You are in think tank rank and he is a new member that asked some questions, don't you think it would have been better to answer him, or just tell him where he might find his answers?

Oye...


what do I look like to you? Some errand boy? There's a search function.

It works quite well, and is reliable. Every question he asked has been discussed and answered millions of times.





(be tough! don't be lazy)

there are many people that simply overestimates JF 17s potential and believing in stealth version, with TVC, over 100kN engine latest AESA and so on, while not even the 2 batches with 4. gen capabilities are operational.

My focus is on status quo. Talking about stealth versions is stupid, the whole aircraft will have to be re-designed. You can be stealthy and make amends to reduce RCS. But neither we nor China has full access to purely stealth materials or technology (correct me if im wrong)

It is a 4th gen fighter that can easily be upfitted and upgraded with 4.5 gen technologies and capabilities. It has been designed in such a way to accomodate future upgrades.

There are defence firms internationally (especially European ones) who will be happy to provide equipments for export versions of these aircrafts, and i'm sure they are keeping their eyes firmly on the 'project'

If you say MMRCAs, or Pak Fa are not near, you must also admit that these kind of JF 17 are not even under evaluation at PAF too.

they are already inducted into PAF; look at Sq. # 26.

In generall you can see the same hype of JF 17 with LCA in the several Indian forums to, the reason is simple, proud! People are proud of the indigenous development, no matter how far in development it is, if other aircrafts are clearly more capable and so on. That is ok of course, but often makes one blind for the reality too.

the JF-17 will be the backbone, the workhorse; in order to replace aging aircrafts. We dont want a Mig-21 type situation on our hands the way indians are suffering.

We want best and optimal solution that is least painful to our limited budget and means. Look at the capabilities the aircraft has/will have; and you will learn the true story.

Nobody said it was a flagship fighter for the PAF. That title would go to the brand new F-16s, most likely. And those will be highly potent aircrafts which will help tilt the balance MORE in our favour --especially as far as defending our skies is concerned, as well as offensive-defence type missions

First of all it were only 2 crashes and already sounds like we bought the first Su 30s yesterday, but in reality we have them in service for more than a decade, so they have a pretty good reliability don't you think?

Let's just say, there arent as ''disposable'' as your Mig-21s. The flankers are definately a force to reckon with. But with such a fighter comes INTENSE (I stress the word) maintenence requirements even after individual CAPs/sorties.

HAL's maintenance record is not so impressive. And this has been exacerbated by india's habit of acquiring spare parts from non-manufacturer sources (such as the Ukraine)

there is an article about it which I posted, i'll have to dig it out at some point.





you can inform me maybe when LCA (as per indian plans) will replace those aging, tired bisons.

 

[araz]

You are in think tank rank and he is a new member that asked some questions, don't you think it would have been better to answer him, or just tell him where he might find his answers?

Besides that, he is not wrong at all, there are many people that simply overestimates JF 17s potential and believing in stealth version, with TVC, over 100kN engine latest AESA and so on, while not even the 2 batches with 4. gen capabilities are operational.
If you say MMRCAs, or Pak Fa are not near, you must also admit that these kind of JF 17 are not even under evaluation at PAF too.

In generall you can see the same hype of JF 17 with LCA in the several Indian forums to, the reason is simple, proud! People are proud of the indigenous development, no matter how far in development it is, if other aircrafts are clearly more capable and so on. That is ok of course, but often makes one blind for the reality too.




First of all it were only 2 crashes and already sounds like we bought the first Su 30s yesterday, but in reality we have them in service for more than a decade, so they have a pretty good reliability don't you think?

I have reviewed Abu Zulfiqar's post and persoanlly i find nothing objectional in the first 3 or 4 paras. it is also polite and therefore you cant really object to that. The last couple of paras are genuine in that you really dont know what IAF will buy in the end so contemplating on the hens before the eggs have hatched is premature.
You may be right in that we are all going ahead of us with regards to Thunder, but it is a symbol of our pride and we have an afiliation to it(you have rightly pointed to it as well). Add to that it seems that inspite of its apparent limitations, it is already generating a fair interest in the international communitiy with regards to sale so they must have seen something in it too.
With regards to the SUs i think they are awesome planes , but as planes go they have had problems of their own. You have had losses and the fleet has been grounded on account of problem with the turbine blades. Also there have been problems with seviceability leading to a significant number of planes being out of service. These are based on well publicised reports.
My last thought is regarding pitching one plane agaist another. I will gladly accept that i am no air warrior, and have no knowledge whatsoever of how you pitch planes against others. However i have learnt one thing which i thought was sensible.
Planes are inducted depending on the role which is envisaged for it. Where the area to be covered is large or spans across oceans you will egenerally find larger twin engined fighters, whereas land locked areas and smaller countries prefer single engined planes. It may also be a case of force projection and sphere of influence. With most modern large planes you have more space and therefore can have more fuel , more armamments, a bigger radar with longer range. However bigger does not necessasrily transform into better. therefore you have the example of the gripen nwith its data linkage giving the British EF pilots nightmares. Tyhe reason i am going into these details is to highlight the fact that Indo Pak war theatre is small as pakista's depth is small and therefore it dictates that we have smaller fighters and you have a much larger area to cover therefore your need for bigger planes. This particular theatrew has been neutralized by the advent of AWACs which will give any plane advanced warning of the approach of its enemy. So all advantage has to a great extent been neutralized.Indo Pak conflict (I hope to God there is none!!) will be more about pilots and the equipment they have to hand than about the size of the plane in view of the above.
Araz