Fawad Chaudhry launches 'Pakistan's first official' moonsighting website

[Blueskiez 2001]

I do not need a lesson in astronomy. I am quite aware of how the moon orbits and how it has phases.

Now that that’s out of the way, please tell me where in your post did you reply when i showed you where an islamic country still does moon sighting? Verbosity does not make a point more valid. Also note none your examples work as a religious analogy. Yeah we take medicine, what does that have to do with the price of peanuts? Allah’s laws are manifested in the Sunnah and do not change. How then can you reject Allah’s law implemented through the Prophet and proceed in inventing your own methods?

And i do not say , let me quote you the Quran and Hadith since you like cherry-picking for your own agenda.


“… So whoever among you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadaan), he must observe sawm (fast) that month…” [al-Baqarah 2:185]

Note the word “sights” please.


The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Fast when you see it [the new moon] and stop fasting when you see it, and if it is cloudy then complete the month with thirty days.”

Again sight.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made the beginning of the fast conditional upon the confirmed sighting of the new moon of Ramadaan, and the ending of the fast conditional upon the confirmed sighting of the new moon of Shawwaal; he did not connect this to calculations of the movements of stars or other heavenly bodies. This is how it was done at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), during the rule of the Khulafa’ al-Raashidoon, at the time of the four imaams, and during the three centuries which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said were the best.

Referring to calculations of the lunar months to start and end periods of worship, instead of actually sighting the new moon, is a bid’ah (reprehensible innovation) that has no good in it and has no basis in sharee’ah. The best of all is to follow the salaf in religious matters, and the worst of all is to follow newly-invented innovations in religion. May Allaah protect us and you and all the Muslims from tribulation, both obvious and hidden.

Please stop quoting Quran and Hadith when you do not even know which Ayat and Hadith have to do with sighting of the moon.

Also you assume me to be narrow-minded so you gave me a dense explanation of modern science and it’s virtues. I am not against science. I already maintained that science is to be used as a tool to help.

Just came back from 16 hours shift from hospital and wow what a discussion.

First of all as a student of the Quran and with a scientific education i never approach a subject with my own agenda. Approaching a subject with your own agenda only means you are biased and then getting to the correct conclusion is very slim.

Second - sorry to say, you do need a lesson in astronomy. Why? because you do not want to accept that the moon´s steady orbit means that the moon reaches a position where it is a "new" moon regardless of whether there are any persons to sight it or not... - To clarify it more: If you are in Lahore and want to sight the new moon then what will you do? Hopefully you bring yourself to a place where you will be able to sight it. And if you don´t sight it then what? What does that mean? Did it mean that the moon slowed down in its orbit? Of course not (and there is why you need a lesson in astronomy). This means that you where not in a position where you could sight the moon. The moon was there but you did not sight it. Plain and simple. Your position is that if the moon was there and you did not sight it - then this means in your understanding that you can not have eid the next day. My position is that even though you did not sight it - but the moon was there therefore you can have eid. Your arguments for the need of sighting the moon is that this is the way Muhammad (PBUH) and Muslims have done for ever - with the references you have quoted.

You quoted 2:185. And that is very interesting. You want me to note the word sights in the translation you have given. The problem is that this is not the word in the ayat:

شهر - Month| رمضان - (of) Ramadhaan| الذي - (is) that| أنزل - was revealed| فيه - therein| القرآن - the Quran,| هدى - a Guidance| للناس - for mankind|وبينات - and clear proofs| من - of| الهدى - [the] Guidance| والفرقان - and the Criterion.| فمن - So whoever| شهد - witnesses| منكم - among you| الشهر - the month,| فليصمه - then he should fast in it,| ومن - and whoever| كان - is| مريضا - sick| أو - or| على - on| سفر - a journey| فعدة - then prescribed number (should be made up)| من - from| أيام - days| أخر - other.| يريد - Intends| الله - Allah| بكم - for you| اليسر - [the] ease| ولا - and not| يريد - intends| بكم - for you| العسر - [the] hardship,| ولتكملوا - so that you complete| العدة - the prescribed period| ولتكبروا - and that you magnify| الله - Allah| على - for| ما - [what]| هداكم - He guided you| ولعلكم - so that you may| تشكرون - (be) grateful.| (Source openburhan.net).

the word used are Shahada. NO place in this ayat there is any word that can be translated as sight. Everywhere the word shahada is used in the quran it is translated as witness. So much for your sighting - and as i can understand you have edited the word moon out of the post - as this was pointed out for you by Sarmad. So who is cherry picking?

The ayat i quoted about the orbit of planets in my earlier post was not for the start and ending of fasting and you know that - if you don´t then please re read my post.

We need to have things in the right perspective on context. At muhammad (PBUH) time the knowledge of the Arabs meant that the way they kept hold of time was by sighting moon and the sun. It was their practical solution of measuring time (Like their practical solution for transportation was the camel). The way Allah has written the quran gives the principles that holds through out regardless the time age. So the ayat 2:185 gives the possibility that at the time of Muhammads (PBUH) living they could sight the moon and we don´t need to - hence the word witness and not the word sight. So when our practical solution for transportation has moved from animals to vehicles why cant we move away from sighting the moon to calculating??

I can´t reiterate the need for the Muslims to be united enough! And we need to start here on these practical things. So Fawad initiative is well appreciated and in due time. We should as a nation start the fasting day together and celebrate eid together. The next step should be every Muslim should start fasting the same day and celebrate Eid the same day.

As pointed out by Allah in 3:103 And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

The rope here is the Quran.

 

[criticalerror]

Just came back from 16 hours shift from hospital and wow what a discussion.

First of all as a student of the Quran and with a scientific education i never approach a subject with my own agenda. Approaching a subject with your own agenda only means you are biased and then getting to the correct conclusion is very slim.

Second - sorry to say, you do need a lesson in astronomy. Why? because you do not want to accept that the moon´s steady orbit means that the moon reaches a position where it is a "new" moon regardless of whether there are any persons to sight it or not... - To clarify it more: If you are in Lahore and want to sight the new moon then what will you do? Hopefully you bring yourself to a place where you will be able to sight it. And if you don´t sight it then what? What does that mean? Did it mean that the moon slowed down in its orbit? Of course not (and there is why you need a lesson in astronomy).

I have at no time denied the scientific fact. My argument is never doubting the science. I fully know what the moon does during the entire course of it's life. I also know that there is a chance that i wont sight it. You can repeat the astronomy lessons if that is a fetish of yours. I am well aware and that isnt remotely the topic of discussion.

This means that you where not in a position where you could sight the moon. The moon was there but you did not sight it. Plain and simple. Your position is that if the moon was there and you did not sight it - then this means in your understanding that you can not have eid the next day. My position is that even though you did not sight it - but the moon was there therefore you can have eid. Your arguments for the need of sighting the moon is that this is the way Muhammad (PBUH) and Muslims have done for ever - with the references you have quoted.

You quoted 2:185. And that is very interesting. You want me to note the word sights in the translation you have given. The problem is that this is not the word in the ayat:

شهر - Month| رمضان - (of) Ramadhaan| الذي - (is) that| أنزل - was revealed| فيه - therein| القرآن - the Quran,| هدى - a Guidance| للناس - for mankind|وبينات - and clear proofs| من - of| الهدى - [the] Guidance| والفرقان - and the Criterion.| فمن - So whoever| شهد - witnesses| منكم - among you| الشهر - the month,| فليصمه - then he should fast in it,| ومن - and whoever| كان - is| مريضا - sick| أو - or| على - on| سفر - a journey| فعدة - then prescribed number (should be made up)| من - from| أيام - days| أخر - other.| يريد - Intends| الله - Allah| بكم - for you| اليسر - [the] ease| ولا - and not| يريد - intends| بكم - for you| العسر - [the] hardship,| ولتكملوا - so that you complete| العدة - the prescribed period| ولتكبروا - and that you magnify| الله - Allah| على - for| ما - [what]| هداكم - He guided you| ولعلكم - so that you may| تشكرون - (be) grateful.| (Source openburhan.net).

the word used are Shahada. NO place in this ayat there is any word that can be translated as sight. Everywhere the word shahada is used in the quran it is translated as witness. So much for your sighting - and as i can understand you have edited the word moon out of the post - as this was pointed out for you by Sarmad. So who is cherry picking?

Please quote where i removed the word 'Moon'. I did not. I have only maintained that the word 'sight' is a translation, the word moon is interpretation. Go back a few pages and tell me where i removed the word moon.
Now please go back and also read my replies. I have at all times maintained this ayah is in tandem with the following Hadeeth

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days).

I feel like a broken record repeating the same stuff again and again and again. Please tell me what the above hadeeth means and keep all unrelated discussions ( such as enlightening essays on astronomy) to yourself.
Also read the link i posted of Maulana Maududi's interview. A much learned person than us two random posters on the internet.

We need to have things in the right perspective on context. At muhammad (PBUH) time the knowledge of the Arabs meant that the way they kept hold of time was by sighting moon and the sun. It was their practical solution of measuring time (Like their practical solution for transportation was the camel). The way Allah has written the quran gives the principles that holds through out regardless the time age. So the ayat 2:185 gives the possibility that at the time of Muhammads (PBUH) living they could sight the moon and we don´t need to - hence the word witness and not the word sight. So when our practical solution for transportation has moved from animals to vehicles why cant we move away from sighting the moon to calculating??

Here in we disagree. How can you all of a sudden decide which part of Islam is to be revised because modern science has now uncovered many new things ? I am sorry but i do not think Islam is down to our whims.

I can´t reiterate the need for the Muslims to be united enough! And we need to start here on these practical things. So Fawad initiative is well appreciated and in due time. We should as a nation start the fasting day together and celebrate eid together. The next step should be every Muslim should start fasting the same day and celebrate Eid the same day.

As pointed out by Allah in 3:103 And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

The rope here is the Quran.

Unity is fine. I am all for it. But please don't use a misguided argument as a platform for uniting Muslims. Fawwad Ch does not know the technical aspects of Islam on moonsighting. Why else do you think he sent it for approval to the CII.? Answer this please.

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Thank you for trying to answer my post.

But you don´t get it do you...2:185 does NOT support the need of sighting of the moon. It never did nor will it ever do. You brought this ayat into the discussion and guess what - it does not support your claim. Therefore you need the support of something other than Allah´s Word.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You again misrepresent what i am trying to say. Calculation and science is quite fine. I even said there are Hadeeth that support counting of days of Shaban, but not for the purpose of replacing moon sighting but to know when to look for the moon of Ramzan

Your Hadeeth do not show permissibility of this calculation being able to replace moon sighting. .
That part is only deduced by you whereas the prohibition i point to is quite clearly said by the Prophet (PBUH). That is my point.

I am not misinterpreting anything. I asked you to quote the 'prohibition' part where the Holy Prophet (PBUH) has categorically prohibited Muslims to use lunar calculations to determine Ramazan days. But you say that it's not the lunar calculations that are prohibited, it's their use to replace 'sighting' of the moon that is. And you say so without quoting the words of Holy Prophet. Here you are falsely deducing prohibition. It's the categorical prohibition/hurmat that has to be proven from the Holy Qur'an/Sunnah in order to declare something unlawful ...

But if you are a literalist (Salafi/Zahiri/Hanbali) and believe that as 'sighting of the moon' are the exact words used by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) they have to be followed in any case, then start riding camels and using swords as well, as those too are the words of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)...

Sunni have 6 different books of hadith from 6 different authors
Shia have 12...

So therefor adhere yourself to the hadith of Allah ie the Quran

"The Four Books" (الکتب الاربعة، الاصول الاربعة) are the four books of hadith regarded as reliable by the Shi'as.

 

[criticalerror]

Thank you for trying to answer my post.

But you don´t get it do you...2:185 does NOT support the need of sighting of the moon. It never did nor will it ever do. You brought this ayat into the discussion and guess what - it does not support your claim. Therefore you need the support of something other than Allah´s Word.

Thank you for trying to answer my post.

I already posted translations where 2-185 showed to have the word “sight” or “witness” in it. I posted translations from Mufti Taqi Usmani and Sahih International that did in fact say the word sight. They are translations that carry much more weight than your word on the translation. But you conveniently ignored that.

Next i posted a Hadith , which you totally ignored as “something other than Allah’s word”. Please know that Quran does not explain everything for reasons only The Lord knows. Otherwise there are plenty of things discussed in fine detail in the Quran as well(e.g Law of Inheritance). The embodiment in the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) is what completes the message of Quran. But of course you will not address the Hadeeth i shared.

 

[criticalerror]

I am not misinterpreting anything. I asked you to quote the 'prohibition' part where the Holy Prophet (PBUH) has categorically prohibited Muslims to use lunar calculations to determine Ramazan days. But you say that it's not the lunar calculations that are prohibited, it's their use to replace 'sighting' of the moon that is. And you say so without quoting the words of Holy Prophet. Here you are falsely deducing prohibition. It's the categorical prohibition/hurmat that has to be proven from the Holy Qur'an/Sunnah in order to declare something unlawful ...

I have maintained that the Hadeeth i shared is quite valid proof that any method besides physically sighting the moon are not allowed . If “Do not” is not prohibitive than I don’t know what is. That is the point i make and i am still of the view that this very plainly, is prohibition.

But if you are a literalist (Salafi/Zahiri/Hanbali) and believe that as 'sighting of the moon' are the exact words used by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) they have to be followed in any case, then start riding camels and using swords as well, as those too are the words of the Holy Prophet (PBUH)...
.

I will quote Maududi on this since i agree with his views on the matter

“We are free to avail from all beneficial discoveries of our times, but the simplicity of the Shariah is not to be marred in any way.”

If this means i am called Salafi/Zahiri/Hanbali, so be it. I don’t identify with any sect anyways. I am not of sectarian mentality. Everyone is free to interpret as they please. I gave you what i deduced from all of this.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I have maintained that the Hadeeth i shared is quite valid proof that any method besides physically sighting the moon are not allowed . If “Do not” is not prohibitive than I don’t know what is. That is the point i make and i am still of the view that this very plainly, is prohibition.

"Do Not" indeed is 'prohibitive' but the Hadith you quoted does not say "Do Not" replace the naked eye moonsighting with more accurate methods of determining Ramazan days..... It's not about you. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but when you make a claim that something is "Prohibited" in Islam then you should be able to prove that prohibition by quoting primary Islamic texts (not your own opinion/deduction, or opinion of the ulema you follow)

I will quote Maududi on this since i agree with his views on the matter

“We are free to avail from all beneficial discoveries of our times, but the simplicity of the Shariah is not to be marred in any way.”

If this means i am called Salafi/Zahiri/Hanbali, so be it. I don’t identify with any sect anyways. I am not of sectarian mentality. Everyone is free to interpret as they please. I gave you what i deduced from all of this.

Again, you, of course, are free to follow Maududi or anyone else you want ... The point is that you should say that you follow certain Ulema and their understanding of the religion (and not the Primary Islamic Texts directly)

 

[VCheng]

"Do Not" indeed is 'prohibitive' but the Hadith you quoted does not say "Do Not" replace the naked eye moonsighting with more accurate methods of determining Ramazan days..... It's not about you. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but when you make a claim that something is "Prohibited" in Islam then you should be able to prove that prohibition by quoting primary Islamic texts (not your own opinion/deduction, or opinion of the ulema you follow)

And that in a nutshell is why all religions must remain in the private domain. Always.

 

[criticalerror]

"Do Not" indeed is 'prohibitive' but the Hadith you quoted does not say "Do Not" replace the naked eye moonsighting with more accurate methods of determining Ramazan days..... It's not about you. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but when you make a claim that something is "Prohibited" in Islam then you should be able to prove that prohibition by quoting primary Islamic texts (not your own opinion/deduction, or opinion of the ulema you follow)

Well by that logic, you have not provided a single clear indication that calculation can be used to determine the start of Ramzan/Eid either. So it swings both ways.!I quoted Primary Islamic texts before i quoted ulema. You disagree with the meaning that is quite literal , of the primary islamic texts i shared.

Again, you, of course, are free to follow Maududi or anyone else you want ... The point is that you should say that you follow certain Ulema and their understanding of the religion (and not the Primary Islamic Texts directly)

The Hadeeth i quoted was my understanding since it didn’t need much interpretation. It was quite plainly prohibitive, per my understanding. So I cannot state that this JUST the interpretation of certain ulema. Even i saw this in the Hadeeth i quoted. Which is of course Primary Islamic text(Saheeh Hadith from Bukhari)

 

[M. Sarmad]

Well by that logic, you have not provided a single clear indication that calculation can be used to determine the start of Ramzan/Eid either. So it swings both ways.!I quoted Primary Islamic texts before i quoted ulema. You disagree with the meaning that is quite literal , of the primary islamic texts i shared.

It doesn't work that way, my friend. It's the prohibition/hurmat that has to be proven from the Holy Qur'an/Sunnah in order to declare something unlawful/prohibited. If something is neither recommended nor forbidden as per the Primary Islamic texts it makes it "Mubah" (i.e An act that is neither recommended nor forbidden or disliked ; neutral). In such cases the law of the land is to be followed. Also, from the Islamic legal point of view, the term halal covers mandatory(wajib/farz), recommended (Mandub)and neutral (Mubah). I, however, would argue that using technology is Mandub (if not mandatory).

And no, "I" did not disagree with the meaning... I quoted some of those well-known scholars/translators who did... In fact, right now I am reading early commentaries on 2:185, and I am yet to see a single commentator/companion who has interpreted 2:185 the way you do. Will post details shortly.

 

[criticalerror]

It doesn't work that way, my friend. It's the prohibition/hurmat that has to be proven from the Holy Qur'an/Sunnah in order to declare something unlawful/prohibited. If something is neither recommended nor forbidden as per the Primary Islamic texts it makes it "Mubah" (i.e An act that is neither recommended nor forbidden or disliked ; neutral). In such cases the law of the land is to be followed. Also, from the Islamic legal point of view, the term halal covers mandatory(wajib/farz), recommended (Mandub)and neutral (Mubah). I, however, would argue that using technology is Mandub (if not mandatory).

It does work like that whenever a religious tenant must be established. All religious duties(Farz) are established using proper description of methodology in both Quran and Sunnah. For your argument on something that is neither permitted nor prohibited, do know that such a thing is generally to be avoided. For the very reason that if on the odd chance it is prohibited, doing such an action would be a sin. Which is undesirable.

You may argue that it is Mandub , but that is your opinion.

And no, "I" did not disagree with the meaning... I quoted some of those well-known scholars/translators who did... In fact, right now I am reading early commentaries on 2:185, and I am yet to see a single commentator/companion who has interpreted 2:185 the way you do. Will post details shortly.

I was talking exclusively about the Hadeeth , for which you labelled me a Salafi(literalist). Please also read up commentaries on that Hadeeth as well. As for commentaries, for every commentary you provide i could also provide one that says it is about moon sighting (as i did with Taqi Usmani’s interpretation). This will be a never ending debate if we are to restrict the scope to just one ayah.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The Hadeeth i quoted was my understanding since it didn’t need much interpretation. It was quite plainly prohibitive, per my understanding. So I cannot state that this JUST the interpretation of certain ulema. Even i saw this in the Hadeeth i quoted. Which is of course Primary Islamic text(Saheeh Hadith from Bukhari)

It may be 'prohibitive' as per your understanding, but the text itself doesn't say so.
And my point is that such texts have to be interpreted in the light of our own experience and the altered conditions of modern life.

It does work like that

No, it doesn't. Ask those who know

For your argument on something that is neither permitted nor prohibited, do know that such a thing is generally to be avoided. For the very reason that if on the odd chance it is prohibited, doing such an action would be a sin. Which is undesirable.

I disagree

You may argue that it is Mandub , but that is your opinion.

Yes, it being Mandub (if not mandatory) is my opinion.
However, It can be said with certainty that it's not prohibited

for every commentary you provide i could also provide one that says it is about moon sighting (as i did with Taqi Usmani’s interpretation). This will be a never ending debate if we are to restrict the scope to just one ayah.

No, you can't ...

And what you did with Taqi Usmani's interpretation? Please tell us where has he said that this verse is about moonsighting?:

 

[criticalerror]

It may be 'prohibitive' as per your understanding, but the text itself doesn't say so.
And my point is that such texts have to be interpreted in the light of our own experience and the altered conditions of modern life.

That would be a debate on whether the words “Do not” mean prohibition. I am of the view that it is. You are of the view that it isn’t. It is a matter of interpretation.

No, it doesn't. Ask those who know

Majority ruling(Fatwas) on the subject is that it means prohibition. Hanbali/Shafi school of thought being the exception. Hanbali school of thought is that it is Mustahab(desirable) to avoid disagreements and disunity(this thread? ) . Shafi school of thought is not clear on this. I introduced school of thoughts to only show how much of the spectrum agrees with the view that it is mandatory. I do not ascribe to any single school of thought.

Some reference fatwas

Fataawaa Al-Lajnah Al-Daa’imah, 10/106
Fataawa ‘Ulama’ al-Balad al-Haraam (p. 192, 193)

Yes, it being Mandub (if not mandatory) is my opinion.
However, It can be said with certainty that it's not prohibited

Of course . You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone.

No, you can't ...

Sure i will take your word for it.

 

[M. Sarmad]

That would be a debate on whether the words “Do not” mean prohibition. I am of the view that it is. You are of the view that it isn’t. It is a matter of interpretation.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. The FACT remains that the text of the Hadith you quoted does not prohibit lunar calculations (or using them to determine Ramazan days)

Majority ruling(Fatwas) on the subject is that it means prohibition. Hanbali/Shafi school of thought being the exception. Hanbali school of thought is that it is Mustahab(desirable) to avoid disagreements and disunity(this thread? ) . Shafi school of thought is not clear on this. I introduced school of thoughts to only show how much of the spectrum agrees with the view that it is mandatory. I do not ascribe to any single school of thought.

Some reference fatwas

Fataawaa Al-Lajnah Al-Daa’imah, 10/106
Fataawa ‘Ulama’ al-Balad al-Haraam (p. 192, 193)

Post full Fatwas so we may know what you are trying to say here... If you want to say that the majority of traditionalist scholars consider it mandatory to sight the moon, then we know it already. That's not what the debate is about. Let me repeat what I said in post#187, when you make a claim that something is "Prohibited" in Islam then you should be able to prove that prohibition by quoting primary Islamic texts (not your own opinion/deduction, or opinion of the ulema you follow)

Sure i will take your word for it.

Go ahead... post them here... Starting with Maududi and Taqi Usmani of course ... You claimed that both of them said that 2:185 was about moonsighting... I posted their versions here and none of them says that 2:185 is about moonsighting

 

[M A MUGHAL]

AsSallam I alekum

Yaar app log macca ke sath kyu ramazan shurru nahi kerte