Fawad Chaudhry launches 'Pakistan's first official' moonsighting website

[VCheng]

AsSallam I alekum

Yaar app log macca ke sath kyu ramazan shurru nahi kerte

Tau phir sehri aur iftari bhi makkah time par kyun naa karein? Norway waaloon kaa kya kasur hey?

 

[criticalerror]

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. The FACT remains that the text of the Hadith you quoted does not prohibit lunar calculations (or using them to determine Ramazan days)

What you claim as FACT is also merely your interpretation of the matter. Lunar calculations are not prohibited per se, they just can’t be used to determine the beginning of Ramzan/Eid . I can also claim this as fact using Occam’s Razor.

Post full Fatwas so we may know what you are trying to say here

I gave you references of the fatwas for the very reason that you can read them.

Go ahead... post them here... Starting with Maududi and Taqi Usmani of course ... You claimed that both of them said that 2:185 was about moonsighting... I posted their versions here and none of them says that 2:185 is about moonsighting

I posted Taqi Usmani’s translation already with the note that what else does witness mean here?

...So those of you who witness the month must fast in it...

How do you witness a month? That was a point i made a few pages back.

I cannot find Maududis version of the same ayah which i read, but he does agree with moon sighting being mandatory . I already provided evidence of this.

 

[M A MUGHAL]

Abh jahiloon ko ye nahi pata ke 1 ghente ki ya do ghente ki wajah se app jahil logh eid ke din roza rakhwate ho

 

[M A MUGHAL]

Sarra arab 1 din zora rathta hai European bhi makka or madine ke sath roza rakhte hain india pakistan or Bangladesh mai halwa kor aik din bad kerte hain ? Koi wajah batao

 

[M. Sarmad]

What you claim as FACT is also merely your interpretation of the matter. Lunar calculations are not prohibited per se, they just can’t be used to determine the beginning of Ramzan/Eid .

It's not merely an interpretation. It's a FACT that the text of the Hadith you quoted does NOT state that it's prohibited to use lunar calculation to determine Ramazan days. OTOH, what you are claiming is merely an interpretation (and false deduction) of the Hadith.

I gave you references of the fatwas for the very reason that you can read them.

Bro, read post 187 again. I am not interested in Fatwas of the scholars. I am only interested in the Primary Islamic Texts...

I posted Taqi Usmani’s translation already with the note that what else does witness mean here?

...So those of you who witness the month must fast in it...

How do you witness a month? That was a point i made a few pages back.

I cannot find Maududis version of the same ayah which i read, but he does agree with moon sighting being mandatory . I already provided evidence of this.

I posted the entire relavent page from Taqi Usmani's commentary in the previous posts. Please show us where has he even mentioned the word moon (or moonsighting).. 'Witnessing Ramazan' does not mean 'Sighting the Crescent'... You witness a month by simply being present/alive in that month.

 

[criticalerror]

It's not merely an interpretation. It's a FACT that the text of the Hadith you quoted does NOT state that it's prohibited to use lunar calculation to determine Ramazan days. OTOH, what you are claiming is merely an interpretation (and false deduction) of the Hadith.

You differ in the words not meaning prohibition. That is an OPINION because plain english dictates that when someone tells you not do anything , it generally means prohibition. The simplest solution is most likely the correct one.

I
Bro, read post 187 again. I am not interested in Fatwas of the scholars. I am only interested in the Primary Islamic Texts...

You rejected my basis for the Hadeeth showing prohibition, by telling me to learn from people that know . Well, fatwas are given by people that know or at the very least, people having more knowledge on the subject than us. That is why i posted references of fatwas.

I posted the entire relavent page from Taqi Usmani's commentary in the previous posts. Please show us where has he even mentioned the word moon (or moonsighting).. 'Witnessing Ramazan' does not mean 'Sighting the Crescent'...

You posted translations from various sources iirc. In that you posted this same translation i just quoted. I don’t recall you posting any commentaries. Post # 126.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You differ in the words not meaning prohibition. That is an OPINION because plain english dictates that when someone tells you not do anything , it generally means prohibition. The simplest solution is most likely the correct one.

You have every right to assume that the inference/interpretation you follow is most likely the correct one. The fact remains that the text of the Hadith you posted does not mention anything about lunar calculations or their prohibition.

You rejected my basis for the Hadeeth showing prohibition, by telling me to learn from people that know . Well, fatwas are given by people that know or at the very least, people having more knowledge on the subject than us. That is why i posted references of fatwas.

I told you to learn from the people that know that it's the prohibition that has to be established

You posted translations from various sources iirc. In that you posted this same translation i just quoted. I don’t recall you posting any commentaries. Post # 126.

Post # 192

 

[criticalerror]

You have every right to assume that the inference/interpretation you follow is most likely the correct one. The fact remains that the text of the Hadith you posted does not mention anything about lunar calculations or their prohibition.

That is my point. You also assume as fact something that is going against plain english grammar. So that is an inference/interpretation on your part and not FACT.

I told you to learn from the people that know that it's the prohibition that has to be established

And i will tell you to learn from people who have already established this prohibition . Ergo, the Fatwas.

Post # 192

That part does not even expand on on the first part of the ayah containing the word witness. ?

 

[M. Sarmad]

That is my point. You also assume as fact something that is going against plain english grammar. So that is an inference/interpretation on your part and not FACT.

Going against plain English grammar??
Well, I am assuming as fact that the text of the Hadith you quoted does not mention Lunar calculations or using/not using them to determine Ramazan days. If anyone can prove otherwise, I will be more than happy to accept:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days).

[Sahih al-Bukhari Book 30, Hadith 16]

^^ Now please tell us where does the text even mention "Lunar Calculations"??

Or are you arguing just for the sake of it?

And i will tell you to learn from people who have already established this prohibition . Ergo, the Fatwas.

I am not willing to accept any such prohibition until and unless the one issuing the Fatwa (or the one arguing on his behalf) is able to back up his interpretation with Primary Islamic Texts... How am I wrong?

That part does not even expand on on the first part of the ayah containing the word witness. ?

Because that part is very clear and needs no further explanation....
Neither Maududi nor Taqi Usmani has claimed that 2:185 is about moonsighting.
Will post detailed commentary on 2:185 in a while...


===========================

@criticalerror

And here is a detailed 14 page commentary on 2:185 by Allama Jalaluddin Suyuti sahib,
There is not even a single report that " Faman Shahida...." means "sighting the crescent", however there are multiple reports from companions and early Mufassireens that "Faman Shahida...." means whoever is present at home [during Ramazan] (p. 498):

 

[criticalerror]

Going against plain English grammar??
Well, I am assuming as fact that the text of the Hadith you quoted does not mention Lunar calculations or using/not using them to determine Ramazan days. If anyone can prove otherwise, I will be more than happy to accept:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days).

[Sahih al-Bukhari Book 30, Hadith 16]

^^ Now please tell us where does the text even mention "Lunar Calculations"??

Or are you arguing just for the sake of it?

The point is not remotely about Lunar calculations and it’s prohibition. It is about not fasting when the moon us not yet sighted. That is where grammar comes in to play. It is not a blacklist but a whitelist. For the lack of a better analogy. The language of the Hadeeth is clearly indicative of not fasting if the moon is not sighted. Why does that escape you?

I am not arguing for the sake of it. On the contrary, you keep projecting as FACT which is your interpretation. That is what i take serious exception to, especially since you have brushed off all of my arguments as merely my opinion. As i said, it swings both ways.

I am not willing to accept any such prohibition until and unless the one issuing the Fatwa (or the one arguing on his behalf) is able to back up his interpretation with Primary Islamic Texts... How am I wrong?

The fatwas use the very Hadeeth i quoted as basis(Sahih Hadeeth = Primary Text of Islam). Prohibition is established by that very Hadeeth. I cannot comment on wrong or right.

Because that part is very clear and needs no further explanation....
Neither Maududi nor Taqi Usmani has claimed that 2:185 is about moonsighting.
Will post detailed commentary on 2:185 in a while...

It’s not clear. What is meant by witness? I look forward to the detailed commentary as well. I will learn a great deal from it.

Edit: You posted it. I will read it up. Also i can grab the point that you didnt post Mufti Taqi Usmani’s version as you originally said, but it is not a personal issue. I am receptive to all learned people’s works.

 

[M. Sarmad]

The point is not remotely about Lunar calculations and it’s prohibition. It is about not fasting when the moon us not yet sighted. That is where grammar comes in to play. It is not a blacklist but a whitelist. For the lack of a better analogy. The language of the Hadeeth is clearly indicative of not fasting if the moon is not sighted. Why does that escape you?

I am not arguing for the sake of it. On the contrary, you keep projecting as FACT which is your interpretation. That is what i take serious exception to, especially since you have brushed off all of my arguments as merely my opinion. As i said, it swings both ways.

The text of Hadith not mentioning 'lunar calculations' is not my "interpretation"
Anyways, on this point, you are arguing for the sake of argument only.. So, let's leave it ...

Edit: You posted it. I will read it up. Also i can grab the point that you didnt post Mufti Taqi Usmani’s version as you originally said, but it is not a personal issue. I am receptive to all learned people’s works.

I did, in post#192

The fatwas use the very Hadeeth i quoted as basis(Sahih Hadeeth = Primary Text of Islam). Prohibition is established by that very Hadeeth. I cannot comment on wrong or right.

The Holy Qur'an is the primary text.
All other sources are open to debate.
Establishing prohibition from that Hadith is an inference/deduction and therefore the view of Ulema and not the words of Allah almighty or the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

 

[criticalerror]

The text of Hadith not mentioning 'lunar calculations' is not my "interpretation"
Anyways, on this point, you are arguing for the sake of argument only.. So, let's leave it ...



I did, in post#192



The Holy Qur'an is the primary text.
All other sources are open to debate.
Establishing prohibition from that Hadith is an inference/deduction and therefore the view of Ulema and not the words of Allah almighty or the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

The text of Hadith not mentioning 'lunar calculations' is not my "interpretation"
Anyways, on this point, you are arguing for the sake of argument only.. So, let's leave it ... )

What about the language mentioning “Do not fast until..”? I am not arguing for the sake of it. Lunar calculations are not part of the Hadeeth for the simple fact that the condition for beginning Ramzan/fasting is only singular. So no need to mention anything else.

I did, in post#192

And it didn’t address the words “...witness Ramzan” .

The Holy Qur'an is the primary text.
All other sources are open to debate.
Establishing prohibition from that Hadith is an inference/deduction and therefore the view of Ulema and not the words of Allah almighty or the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

You have again changed your stance from

No, I didn't call Hadith as distortions... Nor did I reject sources of Hadith (I do not believe in wholesale rejection of Hadith)... In fact, my first post on this thread (and to which you replied) was a Sahih Bukhari Hadith... I thought you were better than that ..

to

The Holy Qur'an is the primary text.
All other sources are open to debate.
Establishing prohibition from that Hadith is an inference/deduction and therefore the view of Ulema and not the words of Allah almighty or the Holy Prophet (PBUH)

It is called Sahih Bukhari for a reason. All Hadeeth in this collection have withstood the test of time and it is still classified as Sahih wholesale. For me(and majority schools of thought) it IS a PRIMARY ISLAMIC TEXT. Not the word of Allah literally because it is the Word of Holy Prophet (PBUH). But PRIMARY ISLAMIC TEXT nonetheless, which you yourself quoted as well.

If you do not agree with the authenticity of Hadeeth that i quoted then i guess it is pointless to argue further.

 

[M. Sarmad]

And it didn’t address the words “...witness Ramzan” .

Bro, better ask Taqi Usmani that why did he not find it necessary to address those words, or why did he not write a commentary/notes as per your understanding/interpretation of the Noble Qur'an....

And let me remind you that you were the one who claimed that both Maududi and Taqi Usmani have stated that 2:185 was about moonsighting. I posted their versions (that were available online) here and none of them has said what you claimed.

You have again changed your stance

Again??... I didn't change my stance even once. There is absolutely no contradiction in those two posts of mine that you have quoted. I am only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.

If you do not agree with the authenticity of Hadeeth that i quoted then i guess it is pointless to argue further.

And when did I doubt/challenge the authenticity of the Hadith you quoted?

It is called Sahih Bukhari for a reason. All Hadeeth in this collection have withstood the test of time and it is still classified as Sahih wholesale. For me(and majority schools of thought) it IS a PRIMARY ISLAMIC TEXT. Not the word of Allah literally because it is the Word of Holy Prophet (PBUH). But PRIMARY ISLAMIC TEXT nonetheless, which you yourself quoted as well.

You are entitled to your opinion. I believe that the Holy Qur'an is a divine book and the only Islamic text with undisputed authenticity that has no mistakes or contradictions, all other man written sources are open to debate. (I hope you realize that just because something is open to debate, it does not automatically imply that it is a distortion)

 

[criticalerror]

Bro, better ask Taqi Usmani that why did he not find it necessary to address those words, or why did he not write a commentary/notes as per your understanding/interpretation of the Noble Qur'an....

And let me remind you that you were the one who claimed that both Maududi and Taqi Usmani have stated that 2:185 was about moonsighting. I posted their versions (that were available online) here and none of them has said what you claimed.

I said the translations say about moon sighting. And what we have is the following

1) Mufti Taqi Usmani’s translation says witness the month but does not elaborate on it in commentary.

2) Maulana Maududi’s translation does not say moon sighting to which i did agree.

3) This is besides the fact that both are of the view that moon sighting is mandatory. I have provided evidence of Maududi’s interview where he does maintain this.

Again??... I didn't change my stance even once. There is absolutely no contradiction in those two posts of mine that you have quoted. I am only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.

And when did I doubt/challenge the authenticity of the Hadith you quoted?

There is contradiction when confronted with the Hadeeth , you plea out that Quran is the only Primary Islamic Text, when you yourself quoted a Hadeeth from Sahih Bukhari and use it to further your point. That doesn’t sound like a contradiction to you? When i did confront you with this Hadeeth, you changed your argument entirely to Quran is the only Primary Islamic Text. Might be a lack of understanding on my part, but I highly doubt it for the reasons i just gave you.

You are entitled to your opinion. I believe that the Holy Qur'an is a divine book and the only Islamic text with undisputed authenticity that has no mistakes or contradictions, all other man written sources are open to debate. (I hope you realize that just because something is open to debate, it does not automatically imply that it is a distortion)

I do realize what you mean when you say it is open to debate. You debated that this Hadeeth does not prohibit lunar calculations, which i agreed to but with the caveat that explicitly stating what is not allowed was not the point of the Hadeeth. It was a reverse of this train of thought. It showed the only scenario (might be my understanding but it is plain english) where Ramzan was to be started. To this you stated Quran is the only Islamic text with undisputed authenticity. I agree the only book with undisputed authenticity IS the Quran because it is a Divine book. What i also maintain that Sahih Bukhari, though open to debate, has already been found to be authentic with reasonable accuracy. So we can consider it a Primary Islamic text, as do many Ulema.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I said the translations say about moon sighting. And what we have is the following

1) Mufti Taqi Usmani’s translation says witness the month but does not elaborate on it in commentary.

2) Maulana Maududi’s translation does not say moon sighting to which i did agree.

3) This is besides the fact that both are of the view that moon sighting is mandatory. I have provided evidence of Maududi’s interview where he does maintain this.

1) Neither Mufti Taqi Usmani's translation of 2:185 nor his commentary makes any mention of moonsighting.

2) Agreed

3) There is a huge difference between "views of scholars" and "words of Allah" ... We are not discussing the views of scholars here....

And BTW, Taqi Usmani does prefer 'astronomical calculations' over 'eye witnesses':

However, there are some contemporary scholars who totally disregard the astronomical calculations in the matter of sighting the moon and base their view on the famous Hadith of the Holy Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam "Keep fast after seeing it (moon) and give up fasting after seeing it (moon)." Their argument is that the Shariah does not base its findings on the astronomical calculations because it is meant for all the Muslims the majority of whom have no means to know the results of such calculations. Therefore, they say, reliance can be placed only on the evidence of the persons who claim to have seen the moon. This is the view which has found favor with the Saudi authorities who are responsible for declaring the sighting or otherwise of the moon. Although I do not endorse this view, nor do other scholars of many Muslims countries accept it, yet the issue being a matter of Ijtihad, the decision given by Saudi authorities is enforceable in their own jurisdiction.
https://www.albalagh.net/qa/moon_sighting_Saudi_Arabia.shtml

There is contradiction when confronted with the Hadeeth , you plea out that Quran is the only Primary Islamic Text, when you yourself quoted a Hadeeth from Sahih Bukhari and use it to further your point. That doesn’t sound like a contradiction to you? When i did confront you with this Hadeeth, you changed your argument entirely to Quran is the only Primary Islamic Text. Might be a lack of understanding on my part, but I highly doubt it for the reasons i just gave you.

Yes, it is a lack of understanding on your part. There is absolutely no contradiction in what I stated