Falcon V Fulcrum Turkey Shoot

[acetophenol]

it would have been better if the audio was there.

 

[ziaulislam]

Not quite. F-16 has better avionics that I will agree. The reason why there are more F-16 kills is because most of the countries that were fought against were small and ill-trained fighter pilots. The MiG-29s in the hands of East German pilots, squashed the USAF in exercise post unification of Germany. If NATO's European hand had gone against East Germany and USSR, the entire reputation of F-16 won't stand where it is today.

may be..but even if we talk about mere specifications..f-16 is far better from its avionics to its handling and digital FBW ..mig29 lacks it.

 

[rockstarIN]

BVR missiles too are fire and forget. You can use the aim-9 series with or without the radar. When a lock is achieved using the radar a diamond appears over the TD box and a lock tone from the seeker is sounded inside the helmet.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/


Its something like the above picture. I know the pic has been altered and I know the it says aim-120 but thats inaccurate. For the AIM-120 a lock is represented with a star inside the TD Box. Or at least thats what Iv gathered from many flight sims. Could be wrong of course....[/QUOTE]

It may be true that heat seeking missiles can be used with or without radar lock, but BVRs are NOT fire and forget. Most of them need guidance till its own seeker gets activated.

 

[INDTAM]

Many Luftwaffe mig-29 pilots were ex East German AF.. with time on the Mig-23 and Mig-21. They too found the Mig-29 a piece of cake.. but had similar opinions about the ease of flying and fighting in a western jet.

Ill try to write as much as the average poster can absorb and has absorbed in the past, if you cannot read it and understand it in one go, I suggest you break it down into a paragraph at a time and do it. Helps when reading a large article.

And I do take my time in posts such as these as it is better to think and formulate before posting rather than just finding loose bullets and firing away.

I didn ask you to write small because its hard to understand but because you were getting too philosophical and didn't write any technical aspect of my question!

As I said German's view cannot be taken as the gospel truth.
If the feeling is mutual by every nation AF flying those birds then its a fact but thats not the case.
Besides stating something on gut intuition is equally harmful to state ones point.
The elephant in the room is hardcore fact because we are not discussing about some legislation or diplomacy but on technical aspect of two great birds.

P.S. please read post 94 and 104 would love to hear your views. I am not here to criticize you. My intentions are honest please educate me.

 

[Zabaniyah]

have you flown either of the plane to describe the feel of the plane.
you may quote some pilots' experience but i can quote an IAF pilot saying MIG 21 bison better than F16.
Each pilot will claim their bird is the best.
Views are subjective only in a Mano e Mano experience we may get the real picture but again it wont be the real and only determinant as pilots experience and capabilities are everything even in this modern era of Air fights.

We aren't talking about the MiG-21. And in fact, his analysis was spot on. Western designers typically give more importance to user-friendliness than just purely technical stuff. Man and machine must be able to communicate with one another. Otherwise, thre is no point. This is one thing that Soviet designers didn't give much importance to. Having an efficient and effective work environment is very crucial.

 

[INDTAM]

We aren't talking about the MiG-21. And in fact, his analysis was spot on. Western designers typically give more importance to user-friendliness than just purely technical stuff. Man and machine must be able to communicate with one another. Otherwise, thre is no point. This is one thing that Soviet designers didn't give much importance to. Having an efficient and effective work environment is very crucial.

so did Su 30!!!!

Western designers typically give more importance to user-friendliness than just purely technical stuff. Man and machine must be able to communicate with one another. Otherwise, thre is no point. This is one thing that Soviet designers didn't give much importance to.

why this generalized assumption!!!!!!
I saw a docu on F18 where the American pilot said that while operating and engaging a target requires high degree of concentration because of to many specs. will post that video.

I guess western media is successful in creating this opinion in our mind huh

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

Dogfight F-18 Vs Mig-29 - YouTube

National geographic MiG-29 squadrons of IAF (Indian Airforce) mini documentary - YouTube

see these videos

 

[INDTAM]

please read this and share with me your comments.

USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For Changes In Training - Vayu Sena

 

[Windjammer]

Windjammer whats there in 82 post. Anyways i dnt know why feeling so much good in nothing.

Depends how you perceive things and certainly a lot more than in posts#69 & 71.....and I don't recall claiming a PAF Falcon wasting Indian Fulcrum.

You can claim PAF F-16 locked RAPTOR. who are going to stop you.

And you have the option to just walk away, further more I doubt any one ever claimed the Viper to be invincible albeit it does have at least one Raptor kill to it's credit.

 

[SQ8]

i didn't find any credible source. i don't like to talk blindly, no wonder if that kind of statement made by Indian you people will jump to ask Source. it smelling stupid speculation only. IF an combat jet like SU-30mki intruded into Pakistani city it will be breaking news. When it happened.

@SANTRO: Same i will say MKI chased F-16 to Lahore,when it intruded Indian land. will you accept it with out any source.

How about you look up the timeline after the mumbai incidents.. before coming around with baseless cynicism..hmm

here.. since you seem too lazy to do it.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2008-12-14/india/27913483_1_airspace-fighter-jets-pakistani-air-space

 

[SQ8]

I didn ask you to write small because its hard to understand but because you were getting too philosophical and didn't write any technical aspect of my question!

As I said German's view cannot be taken as the gospel truth.
If the feeling is mutual by every nation AF flying those birds then its a fact but thats not the case.
Besides stating something on gut intuition is equally harmful to state ones point.
The elephant in the room is hardcore fact because we are not discussing about some legislation or diplomacy but on technical aspect of two great birds.

P.S. please read post 94 and 104 would love to hear your views. I am not here to criticize you. My intentions are honest please educate me.

Did you go through my post with the link on the mig-29?
Because it does not seem you did.

Ptlmd.. arent the IAf migs in the process of being upgraded??
They arent in that condition yet..
the IAF migs were among the first to be delivered and some of them were right of the first Serial batch..
So I doubt they were anything other than analog beasts.

Yes.. in their UPG guise they will be fully FBW aircraft with mechanical backups.. and a glass cockpit.

 

[INDTAM]

Did you go through my post with the link on the mig-29?
Because it does not seem you did.

Ptlmd.. arent the IAf migs in the process of being upgraded??
They arent in that condition yet..
the IAF migs were among the first to be delivered and some of them were right of the first Serial batch..
So I doubt they were anything other than analog beasts.

Yes.. in their UPG guise they will be fully FBW aircraft with mechanical backups.. and a glass cockpit.

yes i did and your trying to state that.....................?????????????????

 

[INDTAM]

How about you look up the timeline after the mumbai incidents.. before coming around with baseless cynicism..hmm

here.. since you seem too lazy to do it.
IAF denies its fighter jets violated Pakistani airspace - Times Of India

hey IAF denied that allegation.

Instead saw in your news media during mumbai incident that PAF spotted an F16 which was supposed to be of ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!! as INDIA didn have one!!!!!!!!!.

 

[krash]

It may be true that heat seeking missiles can be used with or without radar lock, but BVRs are NOT fire and forget. Most of them need guidance till its own seeker gets activated.

That actually depends on the mode. Let me explain: In the first mode the missile uses its own seeker to track the target throughout the flight. In the second mode the seeker is only switched on in the terminal stage of the chase. Before the terminal stage the missile is provided with input on the target from another source. Now that can either be the shooter's aircraft or more conveniently an AEW&C/AWACS.

My actual point for stating that BVRs are also fire and forget was to imply that the notion of 'fire and forget missiles do not need a radar lock' is wrong.

---------- Post added at 02:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 PM ----------

hey IAF denied that allegation.

Instead saw in your news media during mumbai incident that PAF spotted an F16 which was supposed to be of ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!! as INDIA didn have one!!!!!!!!!.

That incident was way before the Mumbai incident or the MKI incident. The Israeli F-16 incident was in 1998, if I remember correctly.

 

[SQ8]

hey IAF denied that allegation.

Instead saw in your news media during mumbai incident that PAF spotted an F16 which was supposed to be of ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!! as INDIA didn have one!!!!!!!!!.

Good for you, you searched and found a tabloid..
I speak of mainstream news agencies..
After all.. why would ToI report a denial if a claim was not made.. or do you agree that ToI is also nothing more than a tabloid.

If you had read the article.. and the experience of operators with the early mig-29.. and the general condition of those that fly the mig-29 including the IAF who reportedly stop flying the mig-29 after the crash rates get too high.
If these operators are experiencing such difficulty flying the aircraft( in its original 9-13 or 9-12 guise) then there seems to be a lot more weighed into how difficult a machine the mig-29 is than the F-16.

 

[INDTAM]

Good for you, you searched and found a tabloid..
I speak of mainstream news agencies..
After all.. why would ToI report a denial if a claim was not made.. or do you agree that ToI is also nothing more than a tabloid.

If you had read the article.. and the experience of operators with the early mig-29.. and the general condition of those that fly the mig-29 including the IAF who reportedly stop flying the mig-29 after the crash rates get too high.
If these operators are experiencing such difficulty flying the aircraft( in its original 9-13 or 9-12 guise) then there seems to be a lot more weighed into how difficult a machine the mig-29 is than the F-16.

is there a rule that indian media is not a credible source!!!!
If yes i can't say anything more.

as far as Indian Air Force stop flying the mig-29 after the crash rates got too high.

As of now, at total of 15 MiG-29s, including at least one twin-seater, have been lost or written off in accidents.

Could such a mishap have been avoided? Most definitely no, especially for aircraft like the IAF’s MiG-29s whose cockpit avionics/instrumentation is not NVG-compatible. Had the IAF’s MiG-29UPGs been flying a similar sortie, then its pilots would have had the benefit of employing helmet-mounted night-vision goggles, which allows for the combination of both a direct visual and an intensified image to be presented to the pilot’s eyes. The two images are combined in a 1:1 relationship and complement each other. The benefits of the system have been extensively proven since the late 1980s in low-level night-attack flying trials, which used a fully integrated NVG-compatible cockpit and forward looking infra-red (FLIR) generated head-up display imagery, together with a head-down multifunction display. The HUD display is seen through a direct visual path, and it is not degraded by unnecessary image intensification as it would be with conventional NVG systems. Additionally, the direct vision path through the optical combiner arrangement makes monitoring of cockpit displays and instruments considerably easier while the ability to scan either side of the combiners enhances peripheral vision and ensures better spatial awareness. The direct vision path also removes problems normally associated with light to dark transitions as the intensified image becomes progressively more noticeable as the direct visual image fades. Such helmet-mounted NVGs are compact and rugged, and the restrictions on head mobility imposed by the depth of conventional NVG systems is avoided. While the system incorporates a single-handed quick-release mechanism for the helmet interface, it can be configured to include an automatic separation system on ejection and designed growth will enable it to accept the latest image intensifier technology as it becomes available. The IAF must therefore ensure that its pilots flying night sorties (using combat aircraft that have NVG-compatible cockpits) over forbidding high-altitude terrain should in future be equipped with at least such helmet-mounted NVGs, or even the new-generation helmet-mounted displays like the ones available from BAE Systems, ELBIT Systems and THALES, which have built-in night-vision sensors and operating modes.