F7PG The Nimble PAF Fighter Nobody Talks About

[Tipu7]

may be it is difficult to place a decent radar capable of BVR engagements in small space of F-7 nose cone .... but personally I would like to see these jets integrated with data link so that they could perform in network centric environment as long as they are in service with PAF

it's true you can check MODP 2017-2018 report ...

Hmmm. I believe SD-10 addition, even if it still lack true BVR capability, will still grant variety in air to air engagement. For example, instead of having only IR based missile, PG will have radar guided missiles too. Different missiles mean more options within a combat. We have observed couple of air kills by F16s recently by Aim120 in WVR combat. The success of Aim120 in close combat indicates that the enemy was caught off guard by a radar guided missile when he was expecting a heat seeking one.

You could add A-Darter to the F-7PG, even without HMD/S. So, it won't have HOBS, but the A-Darter has enough range for "Near BVR" capability (20+ km). The wide-angle IIR is also helpful on its own, of course.

Man you love South Africa

 

[notorious_eagle]

Interceptor

I highly doubt due to 100+km range of BVRs with potent long range Radars

I said 'Total War', not a skirmish of what you saw on Feb 27. These are point defence fighters, and will be expected to engage the enemy in a WVR fight while the F16's and JF17's will be expected to engage the enemy in a BVR fight. In a Total War, there will be engagements both on BVR and WVR level, but owing to the geography, most likely the majority of the engagements will be in WVR level.

Question, any report about those exercises?

PAF does not publish the results of its exercises. Here is a hint, F7PG's were taking shots at 35KM during High Mark exercise 2010. I believe 2 years ago, during DACT exercises, the PG's totally dominated the MLU F16's in WVR.

These F-7PGs could be turned into wingman support aircraft to accompany JF-17s and have a full load out of BVR's -- and using Link-17 with JF-17 can launch and be guided to enemy targets?

They could, they already have been used as a platform to deliver PGM in FATA where the Mirage's would lase the targets and the PG's would drop the PGM's. But then again, the potency of this fighter is that of a Point Defence Fighter and not a Strike Platform. PAF will continue to rely on these platforms as AD fighters, who would engage IAF fighters in WVR dogfights while the BVR enabled F16's and JF17's engage in BVR fights.

I'm sure if we think out side the box we can make good use of them.

Read above.

Admittedly F-7PG is a vastly improved version, but all of us know what happened when Indian Mig-21Bis crossed swords with Pakistani F-16s & Jf-17 and Mig-21Bis supposedly has better avionics than F-7PG! What better proof is needed?

Sir

There lies the flaw in your argument. PAF will not be sending the F7PG over the LOC to engage SU30MKI's in a BVR fight. Rather, PAF intends to use this fighter in AD role to engage the IAF in a WVR knife fight. The F16 is considered the master of dogfight, and the PG's can easily hold its own against the F16 in a WVR fight.

 

[mingle]

SD-10 are 4 meters in length, find it hard to place it any where on the PGs and plus the drag issues!!!

How about under belly

 

[Invicta]

I said 'Total War', not a skirmish of what you saw on Feb 27. These are point defence fighters, and will be expected to engage the enemy in a WVR fight while the F16's and JF17's will be expected to engage the enemy in a BVR fight. In a Total War, there will be engagements both on BVR and WVR level, but owing to the geography, most likely the majority of the engagements will be in WVR level.



PAF does not publish the results of its exercises. Here is a hint, F7PG's were taking shots at 35KM during High Mark exercise 2010. I believe 2 years ago, during DACT exercises, the PG's totally dominated the MLU F16's in WVR.



They could, they already have been used as a platform to deliver PGM in FATA where the Mirage's would lase the targets and the PG's would drop the PGM's. But then again, the potency of this fighter is that of a Point Defence Fighter and not a Strike Platform. PAF will continue to rely on these platforms as AD fighters, who would engage IAF fighters in WVR dogfights while the BVR enabled F16's and JF17's engage in BVR fights.



Read above.



Sir

There lies the flaw in your argument. PAF will not be sending the F7PG over the LOC to engage SU30MKI's in a BVR fight. Rather, PAF intends to use this fighter in AD role to engage the IAF in a WVR knife fight. The F16 is considered the master of dogfight, and the PG's can easily hold its own against the F16 in a WVR fight.

I always liked the look of the Mig-21 and PG's are very much the same with subtle differences. I never realised that they were so potent, thanks for the informative post. Also going by Indian narrative their Mig-21's comms were jammed, which resulted in their pilot crossing LOC.

What king of ECM capability does the PG has?

 

[niaz]

I said 'Total War', not a skirmish of what you saw on Feb 27. These are point defence fighters, and will be expected to engage the enemy in a WVR fight while the F16's and JF17's will be expected to engage the enemy in a BVR fight. In a Total War, there will be engagements both on BVR and WVR level, but owing to the geography, most likely the majority of the engagements will be in WVR level.



PAF does not publish the results of its exercises. Here is a hint, F7PG's were taking shots at 35KM during High Mark exercise 2010. I believe 2 years ago, during DACT exercises, the PG's totally dominated the MLU F16's in WVR.



They could, they already have been used as a platform to deliver PGM in FATA where the Mirage's would lase the targets and the PG's would drop the PGM's. But then again, the potency of this fighter is that of a Point Defence Fighter and not a Strike Platform. PAF will continue to rely on these platforms as AD fighters, who would engage IAF fighters in WVR dogfights while the BVR enabled F16's and JF17's engage in BVR fights.



Read above.



Sir

There lies the flaw in your argument. PAF will not be sending the F7PG over the LOC to engage SU30MKI's in a BVR fight. Rather, PAF intends to use this fighter in AD role to engage the IAF in a WVR knife fight. The F16 is considered the master of dogfight, and the PG's can easily hold its own against the F16 in a WVR fight.

Honorable Sir,

Why do we think that India will only send Jaguars & Mig-21s to Pakistan? Not counting the Rafael; India has about 270 Su-30s, about 65 Mig-29s, and nearly 50 Mirages 2000s. Don't you think that Su-30s & Mig-29s will provide fighter cover to the Indian Jaguars?

PAF F-16 fleet numbers about 83; this means that Thunders & F-7PGs would also have to face SU-30s & MiG-29's, albeit inside Pakistan air space.

You are welcome to believe what you will, but the fact remains that the PAF Mirages, as well as F-7s, are there to make up the numbers until sufficient numbers of Thunders become available.

 

[HRK]

PAF F-16 fleet numbers about 83

just a little correction Sir its 76 after recent crash in Islamabad

 

[Trango Towers]

View attachment 620569

Taking lambs to slaughterhouse.

Remember what Alexander the great said.

I would rather have an army of sheep led by a lion than an army of lions led by a sheep....

That's what makes Pakistan so dangerous

 

[mingle]

I always liked the look of the Mig-21 and PG's are very much the same with subtle differences. I never realised that they were so potent, thanks for the informative post. Also going by Indian narrative their Mig-21's comms were jammed, which resulted in their pilot crossing LOC.

What king of ECM capability does the PG has?

Not sure but no matter what upgrade you do these jets are relics of 60s time to retire them Pakistans saga with F7s they procured as stop gap after 1989 US sanctions and our 60F16s shelved almost 30yrs small nose cone with limited radars and electronics example Indian Mig shot down was Bison upgrade couldn't stand a chance proves these jets are too old and not enough room to have extensive upgrade

 

[Blacklight]

Remember what Alexander the great said.

I would rather have an army of sheep led by a lion than an army of lions led by a sheep....

That's what makes Pakistan so dangerous

Dont know if Alexander actually said it, but very good point, wish I could give you a positive rating for it!

 

[mingle]

just a little correction Sir its 76 after recent crash in Islamabad

He is right rest 8 for possible replacement in case attrition active number is 76

 

[StormBreaker]

Dont know if Alexander actually said it, but very good point, wish I could give you a positive rating for it!

How would you interpret this quote in accordance with PA here ?
Army Of sheep lead by a lion ?

Hmmm. I believe SD-10 addition, even if it still lack true BVR capability, will still grant variety in air to air engagement. For example, instead of having only IR based missile, PG will have radar guided missiles too. Different missiles mean more options within a combat. We have observed couple of air kills by F16s recently by Aim120 in WVR combat. The success of Aim120 in close combat indicates that the enemy was caught off guard by a radar guided missile when he was expecting a heat seeking one.


Man you love South Africa

Why are our Mirages always left out when it comes to BVR engagement? Once F-7 PGs retire, Our numbers will shrink for sometime, Mirages were never meant to be just “Anti-Ground” like PAF uses them, They are multiroles, Like M2Ks of IAF. Why ?

 

[Trango Towers]

Dont know if Alexander actually said it, but very good point, wish I could give you a positive rating for it!

Well I didnt hear him say it but literature and history says so loooool

 

[StormBreaker]

Well I didnt hear him say it but literature and history says so loooool

Ask Qaim Ali shah, He probably can confirm it.

 

[Blacklight]

How would you interpret this quote in accordance with PA here ?
Army Of sheep lead by a lion ?

Army of Lions led by a Lion.

 

[StormBreaker]

Army of Lions led by a Lion.

How about we improvise the quote ?
Lion is a symbol of power and Greatness.
Military doesn’t need power ONLY, Minds matter even more.

What animal comes to mind ?