F-16 Thread

[miroslav]

nopes. They attack a nuclear armed country. They need to attack and expect anything in return....

Ahmedejan (Spelling) needs you.

A nation attacking your country traditionally you have to respond traditionally. Responsing with nukes against your enemy's traditional attack is an open invitation for destruction in return and a promise to your nation that the end is here.

Will they attack? Ok then let us move on. If they attack. Majority is old and outdated. They needed decades to get oldy Hawks. (just check the cockpit of the Hawk... It is even worser then K8.

That doesn't make HAWK a bad AJT. World's top AF's use HAWK as their frontline AJT.

Not to mention no matter how lable K-8 as AJT the fact is the K-8 is and will remain an IJT.

Now those MRCA will take a few decades. And MKI isn't superior. It is a nice big plane with fancy tools but we will see how well it performs in real combat with smart missiles and smaller opponents.

Define smart missiles plz???????

What your smart missiles are gonna do when the flanker will track and destroy you even before you can see it on your radar???????

You did remember that Gnat was small and simple yet it did pretty well against newer opponents?

Remember this lession for JF-17's and F-16's. A lot more surprises are waiting for you.

And third... It is not big US will allies against a nation that cannot use its airforce. Even 1:5 does mean that the attacker has to deal with reality... If they are several hundreds plane in the air and IAF is puttnig big deal of them to attack Pak then I bet that Pak is forcin them with more then the same numbers to retreat... And then if there is a big a2a... Quantitues make superiority less superior

Explain in simple English plz.

much better mentality and most importantly the will to sacrifice himself for the country "JAZBA"

Hosh ki dawa kar baccha hosh ki dawa kar.

190~ Su-30s (mostly with the MKI standard),

Not mostly all of them.

Miro

 

[Munir]

Sorry yaar. After a few boards I tend to post without checking the spelling. Point taken and I agree with you. Let us move on to your reply.

The weaker nation will respond maximum. The reason that nukes are used is the fact that others wil not try to play different rules. If India attacks then it will direclty face consequences. Same logic was applied during cold war... Nato-Warsaw Pact. Now suddenly Pakistan will have to wait till it gets is ... kicked? Dream on. Your traditional response sucks cause nations are not equal. Don't tell me that I am wrong on that. Nukes are not only last resort (so they will be applied) bit also a warning not to start something.

Hawk is outdated machine if you look at the standards at the moment. Just check Hawk cockpit and compare it with AJT... I think AJT is more uptodate. I have seen both on airshow and pretty sure that even the L15 looks better then HAWK. This is the era that advanced trainers have TFT and links... Not aerobatic display capabilities with analog cockpits...

Smart missiles? 50+ g's... 360 degrees... HMS... Better seekers.. Better software... Do I say something new? You should know that missiles are getting deadlier...

So your flanker is super stealth and has 100km+ range missiles and it can get you without any reaction? Wich planet are you from? Flanker is nice but not special. In BVR arena missiles are same and if you wanna track opponent then you need radar lock...

About gnat and rest... Pathetic reply.

India is not US (huge difference in quality and quantity.) And Pakistan is not Irac (waiting to get killed after decades of pressure). Dream on...

stop stupid reply in local language if you wanna decent reply.

MKI is a big plane and imported. Just check why some nations ask for huge spare parts before getting the planes... I wish you all the best...

Hope you do understand that it is not keymag where anything from India is superior (and invented in India)...

Kind regards,
Munir.

 

[miroslav]

Sorry yaar. After a few boards I tend to post without checking the spelling. Point taken and I agree with you. Let us move on to your reply.

I was referring to my own espelling mistik (if any) while writing Ahmedejan's name. Nothing was pointed at you. Dont take anything personally.

The weaker nation will respond maximum. The reason that nukes are used is the fact that others wil not try to play different rules. If India attacks then it will direclty face consequences. Same logic was applied during cold war... Nato-Warsaw Pact. Now suddenly Pakistan will have to wait till it gets is ... kicked? Dream on. Your traditional response sucks cause nations are not equal. Don't tell me that I am wrong on that. Nukes are not only last resort (so they will be applied) bit also a warning not to start something.

Since I have already emptied 6 beer cans my dil has become dariya so I give you this point.

Let's assume that India wont counter attack against Pakistani nuke attack.

Trust me rest of the world will.

Atleast 1 country and believe it or not I will be your own unkil from the west.

Hawk is outdated machine if you look at the standards at the moment. Just check Hawk cockpit and compare it with AJT... I think AJT is more uptodate. I have seen both on airshow and pretty sure that even the L15 looks better then HAWK. This is the era that advanced trainers have TFT and links... Not aerobatic display capabilities with analog cockpits...

Furrrrrr.........................................................................................


Convince this to airforces of UK,US,Israel and many more. Which AJT you are talking about???

HAWK is an AJT (Advance Jet Trainer) and K-8 is Intermediate Jet Trainer (sinodefence.com) so dont even think of comparing HAWK with K-8.

As far as cockpit is concerned then be my guest. K-8 Cockpit sucks in front of the cockpit of HJT-36 but that is not a measure to compare the jets.

Smart missiles? 50+ g's... 360 degrees... HMS... Better seekers.. Better software... Do I say something new? You should know that missiles are getting deadlier...

How many you bought?? Kindly do not share your dreams. Speak reality.

So your flanker is super stealth and has 100km+ range missiles and it can get you without any reaction? Wich planet are you from? Flanker is nice but not special. In BVR arena missiles are same and if you wanna track opponent then you need radar lock...

and now I need to take radar lock lessions from Munir???????????

I didnt say that Flanker is invincible but then F-solah,JF-Satrah and J-Dus is no match for it unless a whole squadron launches against the Flanker.

Flnaker will be out of missiles and obviously you won.

There is a reason why China has such a huge Su-27/30 Fleet.

India is not US (huge difference in quality and quantity.) And Pakistan is not Irac (waiting to get killed after decades of pressure). Dream on...

Pakistan is neither Israel and India is not Egypt.

MKI is a big plane and imported. Just check why some nations ask for huge spare parts before getting the planes... I wish you all the best...

The flanker programme is 85%+ desi as far as India's case is concerns. We dont need to rely on Russia for the sapres. Avionics and weapons guidence is jointly developed with Israel and Russia.

Miro

 

[Munir]

Well cheers if you had some beers...

I read my own message and it wasn't very clear. No problemo.

About nuke attack. A few thousand miles border (direct). 6-12 minutes response time. A few minutes flight time before major targets are destroyed. Both nations and certainly whole asia will be facing the consequences. Unkill or not. Mutual destruction is the least. That is exact the reason why others don't like it and why India won't so it. So Pakistan can decrease forces... India is still shiffering and cannot counter freedomfighters in Kashmir. They do not want to leave world highest battle ground. Not are they intrested in reduction of troops... I say... Being bigger but being weaker. I can trust you? The rest of the world has no time to react. It is India that was asked to back off during the last military problem. Pakistna clearly said: "cross the border and face reaction"... Indian officers were once again dreaming of tea ni Lahore... Us make them stop dreaming.

I meant IJT. Like LCA it is not the latest but still has better then avionics in Hawk... And it is produced in India. Once again lots of foreign parts...

Whether K8 sucks... It is cheap and very handy. Pilots move to final course (s-seaters of the plane they will fly operational). The cockpit is improved gradually. It can mimic other planes. Your explanantion sucks.

How many PAk BVR's? Asif Pakistan showed nuclear bombs hanging under a plane. You know they have that. Trust me. They are not that old fashioned that they will wait. But atleast they are now showing open that they have SD10. India being very bif still cannot produce that. Still cannot produce anything decent. Cannot export anything. Pakistan did that... Look how fast export items are exported...

Whole squadron against single Flanker...? Which schoold did you graduate? Primary only? Imported plane and overrated. It hurts but that is the reality.
Once again... Based on what?

The reason for China to have MKK is that they need decent ground attack plane. And learn material. Su27 licende is not even finished and they moved on. MKK 2 and 3 are no longer accepted. Why would they invest so much J10 and more planes if they could get the best planes ever? Flanker is one generation behind the latest. A big bully with untested weapons and different avionics. No wonder two pilots are needed to fly it. And why making a huge plane good in aerobatics? In real combat it is not much time to roll over... Get first in sight. Fire and leave. You frankly acannot miss the plane. Go pay the big maintenance bills.

85% desi? Like mig21 spares? Please... Avionics are Israeli or French. Radar in one peace... Engines are Russian. You can produce parts in India but don't make a big deal about your desi quality of numbers. You know that LCA had to stay grounded cause there were not enough fuel pumps imported? They were more intrested in painting it grey then gettign it operational. As usual. So much words so less result. Miro. Don't take it personal but level the post. India is not superior. It is bigger. It has decent future. It is not a superpower and it has not capabilities to get Pakistan. Not in the past. Not now. and they can forget it in the future. Leave it.

 

[miroslav]

Well cheers if you had some beers...


I meant IJT. Like LCA it is not the latest but still has better then avionics in Hawk... And it is produced in India. Once again lots of foreign parts...

IJT programme started in 1999. By 2005 the order for the first squadron has take place.

 

[miroslav]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/Vetrivale.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE5-5/Rao.html

Miro

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_218531,0008.htm​

​

 

[Munir]

IJT:
http://www.india-defence.com/specifications/jet trainers/66

The intake is same of Kiran. Then engine looks small (and imported). What is so nice about it? Tell me.. .

 

[Munir]

Assembling foreign parts for MKI is not producing. Like Brahmos is Yakhunt... It is still Russian to me. Selling assembling parts does not mean Indian invented parts. It is like LCA is Indian. Engine is imported. Bodywork is imported. Avionics are impotred. Lots of foreign consultants. To me that is still not Indian. Why are Indians telling Pakistani that Fc1 is Chinese while all they can do is fail putting parts together with more budget and manpower? And do understand that BRF sucks in quality. You do not want me to post pictures of their members.

 

[RAPTOR]

Moving on the F-16 front — finally


ISLAMABAD and Washington have finally decided to proceed with the much-talked about sale of American F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan. Over the years Pakistan-US dealings over the F-16 issue have come to symbolise the roller-coaster nature of relations between the two countries.

We started by ordering F-16s at the height of muted cooperation during the jihad over Afghanistan. We even paid out the money. The Soviets then departed. Non-proliferation sanctions were activated against Pakistan, the ally who had helped fight the last great war of the Cold War. Part of the ‘punishment’ for proliferation was non-delivery of the F-16s Islamabad had paid for. Washington had our money and our F-16s! Some in Pakistan called it ‘highway robbery’ by the superpower.

Now with a high in the bilateral relationship, Washington is willing to go ahead with the sale of the F-16s. This was confirmed by US Under-Secretary of State Nicholas Burns at a joint news briefing with Pakistan’s Foreign Secretary Riaz Mohammad Khan in Washington on Thursday after the first round of the strategic dialogue. While reiterating the US commitment to the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, Mr Burns announced that the Bush administration had moved a request for the planes in the US Congress which is required to clear the deal. The administration had given Pakistan the green light on the F-16s last year and the government had almost firmed up the deal with the American authorities. However, after the devastating earthquake last October, Pakistan decided to put the matter on hold.

The request now made is much scaled down from last year. Initially, the F-16 package comprised brand new aircraft but due to financial constraints as a consequence of the October earthquake, Pakistan has decided to go for a mix of new and used F-16s, according to our foreign secretary.

The thinking in the Pakistan Air Force is that its needs can be met through the purchase of two less costly Chinese fighter jets. The JF Thunder-17 aircraft, being jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China, figures prominently among the chosen substitutes. The other worthy substitute is J-10, the multi-role Chinese fighter aircraft dubbed as the F-10. The defence secretary for production has already indicated the government’s intention to buy this new generation Chinese fighter aircraft. The F-10 (export version of the J-10) has used the advanced technology that was employed in the mid-way abandoned Israeli Lavi fighter jet. The Lavi was to be modelled upon the US F-16 Fighting Falcon muti-role aircraft.

The JF-17 is supposed to be ready for induction into the PAF early next year. Defence policy experts believe that these would eventually form the backbone of Pakistan’s military air power.

While there is no official word on details of the revised F-16 package, it is learnt that the number of new planes has been reduced from the original 55 to 18. The order placed is for a total of 52 F-16s, 18 new and 34 used. The Pentagon was sent separate letters for three sets of F-16 related purchases. The first order is for 18 brand new fighter jets, the second for 34 used ones and the third for upgradation of the F-16s Pakistan already has.

The mode of supply and the pricing of the F-16s will be worked out through system both the countries have already in place and will also figure at the Pakistan-US Defence Consultative Group’s meeting in Washington this week.

Indications are that the Bush administration will put a bill seeking Congressional approval for the sale of F-16s perhaps at the same time as the bill on the controversial Indo-US civil nuclear deal will be voted upon. One view is that Washington believes that this may help to ease some criticism from Islamabad on the Indo-US deal. It remains unclear if this near simultaneous tabling of bills could translate in some linkage in the voting pattern on the passage of the nuclear deal and the F-16s.

Another explanation for the timing chosen to table the bill for the sale of the F-16s has reportedly to do with the production cycle. Apparently, placing the order at this juncture may mean that the F-16s will cost relatively less than if the orders are placed later. The fighter jets are currently on Lockheed Martin’s production line which according to US sources may mean saving some millions of dollars.

But the real reason for this simultaneous tabling is not entirely clear. However, the US move to lump the two may be an attempt to blunt domestic criticism on its controversial nuclear agreement with India. Also in the face of criticism in Washington over the rather rough deal being given to Washington’s ‘key ally’ on war on terrorism, this may be the administration’s unconvincing attempt to demonstrate Washington’s ‘fair-mindedness’.

Meanwhile, the US Administration cannot be comfortable with Islamabad’s reservations on the Indo-US deal. In fact there has been increasing criticism of the deal by senior Pakistani policy-makers. Censure from Islamabad runs no differently than criticism within the US. The Pakistan government has been sending warning signals that the deal could trigger a new nuclear arms race in the region and have serious implications for international non-proliferation efforts. Pakistan’s message to the US and other members of the international community is that it has its own security requirements and it will do whatever it takes to maintain its credible minimum deterrence.

 

[EagleEyes]

I was really happy when i heard pakistan is going for F-16 and J-10...I was always worried that pakistan would go for typhoons or rafeals...but since it is goingfor f-16 situation is not too bad for india...offcourse f-16 armed with aim-120 is a threat but mangabele with MKI's,M2k's and fulcrums while operating under phalcon umbrella and modern sam netword like s-300 and even possible s-400 systems...now if india goes for rafeals or super hornets IAF will become a beast capable to deliver a final knockout punch against any...any airforce in asia.

Is it just me or you feel insecure because we get or plan to get something. The situation is not too bad for India? Are you kidding me? India still has the edge, and Pakistan will do its best to counter it further more.

I dont know about you guys but i think J-10s are merely to replace A-5s, and another platform is to come.

F-16 deal is a bonus and was a bonus, it has only made the F-16 fleet "better" and the new aircrafts (Block 50, 52) will only replace the fighters which are for no use even after the mid-life upgrade.

On the other note IAF has to purchase around 200 aircrafts, not all the aircrafts will be Rafale or Typhoon aircrafts as IAF just can't afford it. The whole number will be dependent on LCA in the near future, also the capability and need.

 

[Neo]

Agree with Webby, JF-17's and FC-20's are meant to be replacing the older types and F-18C/D is indeed a bonus.

Since PAf has cut down the number to 18 firm orders with another 18 in option, I conclude that there's re plance to acquire another ultra modern platform like the Rafale or the Tyfoon, the choice will depend on whats India going to do.

2010 will be a good time to induct the new type.

 

[RAPTOR]

Agree with Webby, JF-17's and FC-20's are meant to be replacing the older types and F-18C/D is indeed a bonus.

Since PAf has cut down the number to 18 firm orders with another 18 in option, I conclude that there's re plance to acquire another ultra modern platform like the Rafale or the Tyfoon, the choice will depend on whats India going to do.

2010 will be a good time to induct the new type.

I still think PAF should get as many F-16s as it can before 2008...along with 600 AIM-120 missiles and JDAMS.

 

[RAPTOR]

MILTECH
EDO And Terma To Develop F-16 Smart-Weapon Ejector Rack

The F-16 'Fighting Falcon,' (pictured) which has been in production by Lockheed Martin for more than 25 years, is used in at least 24 countries.by Staff Writers
Lystrup, Denmark (SPX) May 04, 2006
EDO and Terma have entered into a teaming agreement to jointly develop an Enhanced Smart Triple Ejector Rack (ESTER) to be used on the F-16. The ESTER program will upgrade existing TER-9 racks by adding the capability to carry three modern 'smart' weapons under one pylon.
"Both companies have extensive experience with high-performance military aircraft," said James M. Smith, EDO's chief executive officer. "We are combining our complementary capabilities and market strengths to address a substantial need among the worldwide F-16 community.
The Royal Danish Air Force (RDAF) has already authorized testing of the ESTER capability for qualification on its F-16 Mid-Life Update (MLU). This includes system integration laboratory testing in October 2006 followed by flight testing in November. "In the light of our close relationship with the Royal Danish Air Force I am pleased that we have now entered into an agreement with EDO Corporation on development and marketing of the ESTER," said Jens Maaloe, President and CEO, Terma.
The Triple Ejector Rack is a weapon-suspension unit that attaches to an aircraft's weapon pylons, enabling each pylon to carry three weapons. The TER-9 version is suitable for supersonic under-wing F-16 weapons stores.
ESTER will improve the capability to carry "smart" precision-guided weapons and individually target and release each one. These include the 500 pound-class JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition) and EGBU-12 (Paveway) weapons, and similar stores that operate on the military standard 1760 interface. The F-16 'Fighting Falcon,' which has been in production by Lockheed Martin for more than 25 years, is used in at least 24 countries. Over 4,000 aircraft have been produced, offering a substantial potential market for upgrading to ESTER.

 

[Zeeshan S.]

Did anyone get the news about the specifications of our F-16s (the new ones?)

 

[Neo]

No, still waiting!
There's nothing at the official F-16 site yet..