F-16 Block 15MLU/50/52 Fighter

[Jliu]

Man i just hate it when mistakes over mistakes are committed time and time again. Indeed i would agree here with the retired Capt that there is more to this deal then what we normally hear about the infrastructure and other nonsense. While lost time now cannot be regained and i for highly doubt that unless our top brass will hear a straight no to their face there eyes wont be opened, i would still wish for the top brass to get their heads out of the sand and analyze the situation at hand, drop the idea of going for this damn piece of junk and enter into negotiations with the french over the possible induction of the Rafale even if that means one squardon of it. Latter we can sell our F-16s raise a bit money out of them and perhaps increase its numbers. A contract with the Chinese should also be finalized by now either we want the J-10 or not.

I disagree with the induction of the Rafale into the PAF inventory on the basis that it does not address the quantitative imbalance between the PAF and IAF due to the fact only about one squadron (12-18) w/ complete weapons package may be procured due to funding. While roughly technologically on par with the Su-30MKI this asset critically shares the situation of the Spartans at Thermopylae as well as the Allies in the Fulda Gap in the 80's. Too few against too many. Better off buying ~36 F-16C/D and accelerating deployment of the JF-17 which was developed for the PAF's needs anyway.

 

[muse]

The Indian is a potential adversary - when was the last time the indian landed assasins in Pakistan?? When was the last time the Indian made statements like those made by the US? When was the last time the indian premier or President made treats to take war to Pakistan? Better an enemy like India than a friend like the U.S.

The sooner the U.S. is shown the door, the sooner peace will return to Pakistan. And yes, this includes those damn F-16. Penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[ejaz007]

Keeping enemity with USA is bad but keeping friendship with them is worst. The sooner our great leaders learn this the better.

 

[IceCold]

I disagree with the induction of the Rafale into the PAF inventory on the basis that it does not address the quantitative imbalance between the PAF and IAF due to the fact only about one squadron (12-18) w/ complete weapons package may be procured due to funding. While roughly technologically on par with the Su-30MKI this asset critically shares the situation of the Spartans at Thermopylae as well as the Allies in the Fulda Gap in the 80's. Too few against too many. Better off buying ~36 F-16C/D and accelerating deployment of the JF-17 which was developed for the PAF's needs anyway.

We are not getting F-16s. This is a reality that Pakistanis need to see before we waste any more time. Also we are not buying 36 although the initial order was expected to be 36. We were buying only 18 which means just one squardon. Now coming back to the imbalance, if we go by what you said about the quantitative imbalance, then i can argue with the same thing that how only 18 would be any different. Bottom line is that we need some serious punch in the PAF and Rafale seems to be the logical step for two main reasons. One its a modern platform which will see alot of future development including an AESA radar while the F-16s have seen its glory days and no matter what toys they put into it, the fact remains the same that the airframe is on the verge of its life span. Second, France is a much much more reliable supplier then US and unlike F-16s, rafales will not come with strings attached to them.

As i have mentioned in my previous post that we can start with one squardon and all its weapon package and with time as more resources are made available to the PAF, we can gradually increase the numbers. Also we will have the option to sell our F-16s. That will too raise money to atleast induct one more squardon of rafale after the intial one.
JF-17 is a whole different category. Even with the JFs we need another platform, a bigger, better platform. That is why F-16s were procured at the first place.

 

[Munir]

It does not matter what we do. They will use F16 as often as possible do push us. There is no shame left to that. The other shame is that we are willing to induct these planes. I would no longer opt for any US plane.

 

[BATMAN]

Closing of assembly line does not mean the product can not be produced again. Remember Rafael has not bagged reasonable order from any airforce. So if say PAF goes for about 30 Mirage 2000-9 then I am sure French would be more than happy to reopen production line.

Dassault's web site still lists Mirage 2000. This means they have not entirely thrown out the fighter.

Mirrage is not a replacement for F-16.
By the time assembly line of mirage may be operational in Pakistan, JF-17 will be way advance and in mass production.
I think we have no option left other than JF-17 and J-10 and with decent radar and BVR they will do just fine in their respective roles.
We need to focus more on radar and BVR missile from any source incl. France.

 

[Neo]

INTERVIEW-U.S. says funds for F-16s to Pakistan is tough sell ​

15 Sep 2008

By Sue Pleming

WASHINGTON, Sept 15 (Reuters) - The Bush administration expects an uphill battle with Congress for permission to use counterterrorism funds to upgrade Pakistan's F-16 fighters, the State Department's top diplomat for South Asia said on Monday.

But even if lawmakers balk, the State Department believes it has the authority to shift counterterrorism aid to the fighter program.

"For the moment, we're not taking a legalistic approach to this. We're trying to work it out with the Congress," Richard Boucher, assistant secretary for South and Central Asian Affairs, said in an interview with Reuters.

Lawmakers plan to hold a hearing on Tuesday to grill administration officials on the F-16 program with Pakistan and its use in counterterrorism operations against al Qaeda and Taliban extremists in the border areas with Afghanistan.

Analysts say the F-16, built by Lockheed Martin Corp, and other big-ticket military items have in the past been viewed by Islamabad as weapons to help Pakistan counter its rival, India.

In July, two senior Democratic lawmakers asked the administration not to use the $226.5 million to refurbish the the F-16s. They said they feared the plan diverted cash from more urgent counterterrorism equipment like helicopters and night-vision goggles.

But Boucher said the F-16s also had been used for counterterrorism missions in hundreds of sorties targeting militants in the tribal areas in recent months.

The F-16 upgrade was badly needed, he said, and would give Pakistan with a more effective counter-terrorism tool, enabling forces to work at night and improve precision-strike capability.

He also said the money would come from areas, such as maritime patrol programs, that were not as urgently needed as the fighter upgrades.

"I think it's an uphill climb but we don't shy away from uphill climbs," Boucher said of the State Department's effort to convince Congress to allow it to shift the funds to the Pakistani F-16 program.

PAYMENT FOR LOCKHEED

Over the summer, the Bush administration made a payment "in the $100 million range" to Lockheed after it became clear the firm would otherwise fire workers involved in the project, he said.

The next payment is due in October and the administration is working with Congress to try to resolve the issue by the end of this month, Boucher said. "We don't want to go ahead without some kind of understanding on the part of Congress."

A Congressional aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said appropriating subcommittees in Congress were entitled to request a "hold" on reprogramming funds and this had been done on the F-16 upgrades. However, he said this was not legally binding.

It was "atypical" for a government agency to go ahead with redirecting money over the objections of the chair of the relevant committees in Congress, the aide said.

U.S. officials have long been frustrated at what they view as Pakistan's failure to do enough to combat militants along its border with Afghanistan. The United States has some 33,000 troops in Afghanistan, many of whom are fighting the Taliban insurgency. (Editing by Chris Wilson)

 

[ejaz007]

Mirrage is not a replacement for F-16.
By the time assembly line of mirage may be operational in Pakistan, JF-17 will be way advance and in mass production.
I think we have no option left other than JF-17 and J-10 and with decent radar and BVR they will do just fine in their respective roles.
We need to focus more on radar and BVR missile from any source incl. France.

I am not talking about replacing F-16 with Mirage 2000. I am talking about a qualitative improvement by replacing older ROSE II and III Mirages and F-7 PG with perhaps Mirage 2000. Another reason is that Mirage 2000 would be cheaper yet better than existing PAF platforms. So this is what I presume at the moment to be the better option. Instead of going for 18-20 Rafael we should try 36 Mirage 2000. Also remember O&M cost of PAF will also reduce as a result.

 

[ejaz007]

U.S. State Dept. convinces congress to upgrade Pak F16’s fund
Updated at: 0200 PST, Tuesday, September 16, 2008


WASHINGTON: Despite recent territorial tensions with Pakistan, the Bush administration is prepared to fight an uphill battle with Congress over the proposed use of counterterrorism funds to upgrade Pakistan's F-16 fighters today. The State Department believes it has the authority to implement.

However, assistant secretary for South and Central Asian Affairs Richard Boucher said the Department was trying to work it out with Congress.

Lawmakers plan to hold a hearing today to grill administration officials on the suitability of F-16's in Pakistani counterterrorism operations amidst fears that Pakistan may want the upgrades to counter India.

Boucher justified the proposed shift in funding by citing the hundreds of sorties flown in recent months that had targeted militants in the tribal areas.

U.S. State Dept. convinces congress to upgrade Pak F16’s fund

 

[Jliu]

We are not getting F-16s. This is a reality that Pakistanis need to see before we waste any more time.

Putting on my defence professional hat I am only going to say that it is very probable (~75&#37 that the PAF is going to recieve more than just 18 F-16 given the sensitivity of the purchases under discussion which also involve MLU airframes from third parties.

Now coming back to the imbalance, if we go by what you said about the quantitative imbalance, then i can argue with the same thing that how only 18 would be any different.

The disparity I have mentioned is due to cost and life cycle costs. Look up the figures for the per/unit cost of an F-16 compared with the figures bandied around by Dassault as per ROKAF and RSAF F-X competitions. The only point I have to make is that when faced by an adversary with an overwhelming quantitative advantage every platform (and missile) counts. Every systems analysis ever conducted for the PAF has said precisely the same thing. If even used Gripen A/B were ruled out by PAF brass the Rafale will (barring heavy kickbacks to mentioned brass) will not eventuate.

One its a modern platform which will see alot of future development including an AESA radar

Just because a platform has an AESA radar on it does not mean it automatically is 'superior' to one that does not-given the NC nature of the next air battle. War is NOT some kind of noble one-on-one duel as many on this forum see it. It's more of a mugging with the numbers making the difference as I have repeatedly mentioned in my posts. The Rafale does not currently have an AESA radar and will not for the next 5 years at least unless a major buyer is found (40+ airframes) to justify R&D for the proposed RBE mk-2. Morever compare the stated performance of output (kW) and ES antenna length of the RF modules of the proposed AESA above to the APG-78 on the SHornet-in essence Dassault would be developing a "dead-on-arrival" radar unit inferior to what's out there in the market.

while the F-16s have seen its glory days and no matter what toys they put into it, the fact remains the same that the airframe is on the verge of its life span.

Utter rubbish. New build and MLU Falcons in terms of design features are far superior to say the J-10 if we use your line of argument. In this era of missile-centric combat any aircraft will be a burning heap of scrap if hit by a missile and the F-16/AMRAAM combination is as lethal as any out there. You also miss the F-16's significance in the PAF force structure as the Falcon is the only asset capable of carrying out precise strike+deep interdiction roles on major Indian facilities w/ the Sniper/JDAM combination. You only have to ask PAF personnel why they prefer the Falcon as well as the range of ordnance/flexibility available to the PAF.

Second, France is a much much more reliable supplier then US and unlike F-16s, rafales will not come with strings attached to them.

The only strings attached is "buy French" with ordnance, maintenance and upkeep. It doesn't come cheap and Meteor AAMs are NOT guaranteed simply because if any one of five patners object then no sale will be forthcoming. The PAF simply will not take this sort of risk both with funds and inventory.

Also we will have the option to sell our F-16s. That will too raise money to atleast induct one more squardon of rafale after the intial one.

Please, don't make me laugh. There is no chance on this Earth the US Gov will allow Pakistan to sell F-16s to a third party-you may only sell back to the US and I don't doubt for an instant you will even recieve 1/3 of the resale value (hint: the DSCA website lists a certain resale quote for RMAF F-18C/D trade-ins for the SHornet). And then have a look at the prices being quoted for the Singaporean bid.

Even with the JFs we need another platform, a bigger, better platform. That is why F-16s were procured at the first place.

Thats your opinion. Your Air Marshal certainly does not think so and neither do I.

 

[Nomi929]

Closing of assembly line does not mean the product can not be produced again. Remember Rafael has not bagged reasonable order from any airforce. So if say PAF goes for about 30 Mirage 2000-9 then I am sure French would be more than happy to reopen production line.

Dassault's web site still lists Mirage 2000. This means they have not entirely thrown out the fighter.

Nope!

Thats not Gonna Happen.

India was first Looking towards Mirage 2000-9 for their 120+ MRCA Planes tender.

But France regardless of such huge order, only presented Rafale!

 

[TOPGUN]

What other aircraft could become a option which is a non chinesse orgin??

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Putting on my defence professional hat I am only going to say that it is very probable (~75%) that the PAF is going to recieve more than just 18 F-16 given the sensitivity of the purchases under discussion which also involve MLU airframes from third parties.

New build and MLU Falcons in terms of design features are far superior to say the J-10 if we use your line of argument. In this era of missile-centric combat any aircraft will be a burning heap of scrap if hit by a missile and the F-16/AMRAAM combination is as lethal as any out there. You also miss the F-16's significance in the PAF force structure as the Falcon is the only asset capable of carrying out precise strike+deep interdiction roles on major Indian facilities w/ the Sniper/JDAM combination. You only have to ask PAF personnel why they prefer the Falcon as well as the range of ordnance/flexibility available to the PAF.

Thats your opinion. Your Air Marshal certainly does not think so and neither do I.

Jliu i agree with most part of your post.. their is no dough that when upgraded, these F-16s will be turned into one of the most lethal fighters with AMRAAM and ERIEYE combination in sub-continent...
technical aspect.. F-16 is a great deal but political point of view for pakistan.. i think some other options would be better and PAF does have a back up plan as ACM said earlier that they will not be surprised and are pretty much prepared for other options in case of no f-16 deal approval by the congress.. and considering barrak osama's harsh statements that pakistan is preparing for war with india and if elected then its 100% sure that their is no f-16s for pakistan.
pakistani version of J-10 wont be as basic as Chinese one.. its a improved version with 10-15+ million dollars worth of more improvement along with french avioncis and radar~.. so we cant judge now its capabilities when they are not even operational yet..
i think one of the back up plans for PAF would be to increase the number of JF-17 or FC-20 with more French input or go with 2004 plan for "Gripens?"..

 

[TOPGUN]

Yes why cant we try for the grippen again i dont understand it now we have even bought Sweden 's Saab aircraft we must try i think!! we are our of options!!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Yes why cant we try for the grippen again i dont understand it now we have even bought Sweden Saab aircraft we must try i think!! we are out of options!!

budget and politics are the main problem .. other then that.. PAF was very well prepared to take on Gripens..