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Putting on my defence professional hat I am only going to say that it is very probable (~75%) that the PAF is going to recieve more than just 18 F-16 given the sensitivity of the purchases under discussion which also involve MLU airframes from third parties.
Just because a platform has an AESA radar on it does not mean it automatically is 'superior' to one that does not-given the NC nature of the next air battle. War is NOT some kind of noble one-on-one duel as many on this forum see it. It's more of a mugging with the numbers making the difference as I have repeatedly mentioned in my posts. The Rafale does not currently have an AESA radar and will not for the next 5 years at least unless a major buyer is found (40+ airframes) to justify R&D for the proposed RBE mk-2. Morever compare the stated performance of output (kW) and ES antenna length of the RF modules of the proposed AESA above to the APG-78 on the SHornet-in essence Dassault would be developing a "dead-on-arrival" radar unit inferior to what's out there in the market.
Utter rubbish. New build and MLU Falcons in terms of design features are far superior to say the J-10 if we use your line of argument. In this era of missile-centric combat any aircraft will be a burning heap of scrap if hit by a missile and the F-16/AMRAAM combination is as lethal as any out there. You also miss the F-16's significance in the PAF force structure as the Falcon is the only asset capable of carrying out precise strike+deep interdiction roles on major Indian facilities w/ the Sniper/JDAM combination. You only have to ask PAF personnel why they prefer the Falcon as well as the range of ordnance/flexibility available to the PAF.
The only strings attached is "buy French" with ordnance, maintenance and upkeep. It doesn't come cheap and Meteor AAMs are NOT guaranteed simply because if any one of five patners object then no sale will be forthcoming. The PAF simply will not take this sort of risk both with funds and inventory.
Please, don't make me laugh. There is no chance on this Earth the US Gov will allow Pakistan to sell F-16s to a third party-you may only sell back to the US and I don't doubt for an instant you will even recieve 1/3 of the resale value (hint: the DSCA website lists a certain resale quote for RMAF F-18C/D trade-ins for the SHornet). And then have a look at the prices being quoted for the Singaporean bid.
Thats your opinion. Your Air Marshal certainly does not think so and neither do I.
i think one of the back up plans for PAF would be to increase the number of JF-17 or FC-20 with more French input or go with 2004 plan for "Gripens?"..
Wasnt Pakistan refused over Gripen even though Musharraf personally requested for it.
that was because i think the sweeds did not support pakistani military "dictatorship".. lol .. even though mush was nothing like it..
Personally i have never seen the point of buying Gripen when we are developing a plane with similar capability(Thunder). Secondly te cost of inducting Gripen will be a lot more than inducting F16s.
Araz
Me too.... but we know decision was not wrong and was made on merit and in a good faith.I would have taken cash and bought anything else...
Hmmm well i am certainly not aware of it and perhaps would not argue over it since the line of field you are in, obviously you know more then whats on the paper. By the way wasnt your line of field Navy
I agree with the one on one duel thing however my point was solely related to an AESA radar. The importance of AESA radar in PAF is seen by the mere fact that PAF wants an AESA radar on the JF-17 which as some suggests a radar worth 5 million over a jet that cost 15 million.
Point is that the way you ruled out its importance in air to air combact is simply beyond my understanding. While i would agree that in present era of missile centric warfare any jet even the F-22 hit by a missile would turn into a ball of fire, but what about the first lock on and fire probability and how decisive will this prove to be the fact who locks on first. India has made an AESA radar must in their tender for MRCA.
I havent doubted the fact that the F-16s are not superior then the J-10 but we are not comparing it with the J-10 here. My point was that more then three decades have been passed since F-16s first roled out. Now i know and can understand the fact that alot has been changed, upgraded and modified in it but how exactly is it comparable to lets say the EF. Come on days of the F-16 are done, it wont see any more changes in it(upgrades). Even the production line was about to end untill Pakistan and a few nations like turkey decided to but it and hence the assembly line kept alive to meet the order.
The happening of an objection for the sale of meteor is probally very low as compared to something of the US orgin. Even if the meteor is not available, there are other options available and it wont stop the jets from flying unlike in the case of US where the essentialy need spare parts to keep the birds alive are held back, thats not going to happen in case of french.
Thats not my opinion. It has been stated by the ACM himself previously that we need a fighter that could possibly carry more weapons load. JF-17 for now is a point defence fighter. Otherwise why would we be looking for the J-10s if JF-17 could perform all roles?
We'll wait and see as to future sales even though the PAF miraculously recieving 500 120C-5s. Don't say America isn't nice to you with those aid packages (begun in 2001) because the Europeans always insist you pay up front with cash.
It'll trump a EF-2000/Rafale anyday by sheer virtue of its integrated sensor suite and weapons package. That said, the Block 52+ for the PAF is the second most lethal variant of the Falcon out there and one league ahead in weapons and systems fit of the J-10. For all the J-10's supposed maneuverability, assuming its in the magnitude of ~4.5-6G can it evade a 9G AMRAAM -C5 inbound at +/-M.5?
Without the Meteor the Rafale will be at a severe disadvatange vs any contemporary in any scenario given the fact potential adversaries enjoy the use of the R-77 which outranges the MICA/IR MICA and which Meteor was designed to outrange given the lack of EU expertise in kinetic VLO technology.
Jliu sir,
America is only as nice to us as she would be to Koreans, Germans, Indians or anyone else who is willing to pay. The entire Weapons package of $650 million is being funded by Pakistan herself (trust me on this). This is in addition to the monies for the blk52 F-16s which we are funding on our own. The only thing that the US is giving in aid is the MLU package out of the aid through FMF for this work. Ironically, the same amount of money (as in the case of the weapons package) in the past was returned to us in the form of soybean oil after charging us parking fees for F-16s that were never given to us. Its a story unheard of in the realm of military sales. Even the USG were embarrassed over it in talks with our guys.
This has a lot to do with what stage the blk60 vs Rafale were in when the UAEAF went all out for blk60. Rafale has still not been declared IOC with a true MR capability so its hard to say that Blk60's sensors and weapons suite is better than those of Rafale.
The Spectra ECCM suite is a beauty in its own right and is right up there with the latest series of ALQ EW suites on offer on the F/A-18 SH and F-16 blk52/60 aircraft. What sucks for the French is that they have not been quick enough to get the Rafale to a demonstrated fully MR capability. No wonder they are the dark horses in every single evaluation for the next gen fighter acquisition.
Also the J-10 is definitely a +/- 9G airframe. There is no doubt in my mind about it. The PAF pilots who have flown it have some good things to say about the basic maneuverability and enhancement possibilities with the type. The venerable Chinese J-6 (F-6s) in the PAF service could do better than 5Gs and would give a tough time to the Viper during DACT. So I would not underestimate the J-10 in such rudimentary areas as the ability to withstand maneuvers in the 9G range.
I believe this is a theoretical assumption which does not take into account that the Rafale has the lowest RCS of all the non-stealth fighter types around.
So the theoretical ranges of R-77 outgunning the Rafale may be debatable. Meteor definitely gives the French a much better standoff, first shot capability though.Also the assumption that Rafale would not be a capable deterrence against the IAF MKIs and MMRCA type is also an underestimation of the type.
I know that PAF will never go for the Rafale given the current situation with it, however at least in the Indo-Pak context, the Rafale would be just as good if not better than the Blk52 F-16s. The benefit of blk-52s for us is that its a known quantity. We have operated the earlier types, have dealt with the US, know about the spares market, know that many other operators are out there etc. etc., know that in the future, the enhancements would be cheaper to integrate owing to so many other operators out there etc. Unfortunately the French cannot match many of these extraneous benefits.
Navy background yes.
Without the Meteor the Rafale will be at a severe disadvatange vs any contemporary in any scenario given the fact potential adversaries enjoy the use of the R-77 which outranges the MICA/IR MICA and which Meteor was designed to outrange given the lack of EU expertise in kinetic VLO technology. We'll wait and see as to future sales even though the PAF miraculously recieving 500 120C-5s. Don't say America isn't nice to you with those aid packages (begun in 2001) because the Europeans always insist you pay up front with cash.
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