Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[MastanKhan]

Thank you . Someone understood my gibberish and started a sensible discussion. I think overtime with India acquiring more 4th gen++ platforms as well as one or two 5th gens, Pakistan (is being) and will be put in a position to offset those by acquiring more J-10C's. The beauty of the J-10C platform is that it literally fulfills essentially all PAF requirements, i.e. advance tech and sensors, single engine, speed, agility, loadout, etc. Which is where I think we should stop the JFT at block III and complete that order and move onto standardizing the J-10C and it's future variants via local assembly.

India cancelled and dabbled with Rafale for like a decade ONLY to force the French to allow them to license build it locally to standardize it and make AMCA their stealth platform. The French didn't budge. J-10 is our Rafale so we need to standardize it.

The Chinese would love to sell us the manufacturing line if we pay for it. It's a win-win for them. They've already made use of the current production line by producing over 500 J-10's. They are now phasing out future development of the J-10 platform, selling it's manufacturing line to a third tier aircraft manufacturer to essentially use it for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild, etc. J-10 now has a limited role in the Chinese military.

So it's very feasible for us to acquire the assembly line for less or more of the same amount we'd be building a "rebuild" factory 10 years from now. If we don't standardize the J-10 platform thinking long term now, we'd be forced to procure it like the Mirages!

We are an official partner in the TFX now, plus KizilElma and Akinci are coming too. We just need a J-10C like advanced workhorse beyond the JFT and we are covered for the next 30 years.

Hi,

Seems like you lack industrial experience---.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Hi,

Seems like you lack industrial experience---.

Mr. Mastan - That's a funny joke, in fact the funniest thing that someone said today . I'd rather stay humble and let your useless self-worthy justifications continue to amuse you. When someone writes about "manufacturing" it usually means some feasibility was done. I can't share it on here since the class always has people who cheat and steal and don't do their homework!

 

[MastanKhan]

Ok Mr. Mastan. I should be "grateful" that you respond to my posts? That's some arrogance. You don't have to respond to my posts. You are welcome to take your 50 year experience selling 4 wheel fighter jets to other posts. We salute the green flag, we aren't obligated by it to show arrogance or make excuses. Sometimes it's healthy to just let the topic go on without interfering if you don't have the facts to back up claims.

It's useless to discuss further. But if the Chinese are "so capable in building our equipment" as per your post, then why did we spend half a billion dollars to start the JFT local assembly to begin with? The Chinese could've done it for us much cheaper per your logic?

I've read your posts from years ago where you use to diss the JFT and cry about PAF needing "heavies". Apparently, the reality has kicked in now after seeing the JFT perform so well.

Lastly, the JFT makes a GREAT LO of the PAF's HI-LO and the J-10C makes the great HI! If both these options are locally produced (like the JFT even 50-60% in J-10C's case) it's a win-win situation for both Pakistan and China. Ciao!

Hi,

Sir---there is a time for war---& there is a time for peace---.

Once the JFT got successfully inducted---there was no reason to continue fighting over the design---that thing was done and dusted---. It has already been built and put into service---.

Now the aircraft's utility will be ascertained on the its merits of what it is and what it brings with it.

See---you are thinking like a pakistani---" once you said it---then die with that statement "---. And why are you thinking like that---possibly---it is because of your training in school---college---universitry???---at home among friends---whatever---you know better---.

The american way is---you may disagree as much as you want to---but when the dust settles---forget the differences---make the best of the situation and move ahead----unless there is a moral issue---or an issue of total incompetence---.

As a true pakistan---it will be very difficult for you to understand that concept---.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Hi,

Sir---there is a time for war---& there is a time for peace---.

Once the JFT got successfully inducted---there was no reason to continue fighting over the design---that thing was done and dusted---. It has already been built and put into service---.

Now the aircraft's utility will be ascertained on the its merits of what it is and what it brings with it.

See---you are thinking like a pakistani---" once you said it---then die with that statement "---. And why are you thinking like that---possibly---it is because of your training in school---college---universitry???---at home among friends---whatever---you know better---.

The american way is---you may disagree as much as you want to---but when the dust settles---forget the differences---make the best of the situation and move ahead----unless there is a moral issue---or an issue of total incompetence---.

As a true pakistan---it will be very difficult for you to understand that concept---.

Mr. Mastan. Couldn't make a factual argument and now restoring to insulting "us poor Pakistanis", yesterday was "the Pakistani flag why you kept responding" and today, you are insulting us Pakistanis which represent the Flag too so you are insulting that too!! A few years ago you hated the JFT and kept telling everyone how it was a mistake and we needed "heavies". Today you are so hung up on our JFT that you can't understand the logic from my posts!

It's obvious you are very frustrated. You are a senior person age wise. Same "Pakistani values from school, friends, parents", etc, (that you are criticizing above) TAUGHT ME to respect elders! I've already said my proposed suggestions above and have no more to say. I'd let the members debate it out.

Lastly, you've insulted our Pakistani schools / education, etc. I would LOVE to see your PHD or Master's degree from either Harvard, Yale or MIT. If you don't have qualifications from one of these three, you don't get to act like the most educated person on this planet. Thx but NO Thx. Please don't disrespect my country, it's people / military / values!

On JF-17 and it's Production along with J-10, I've already said my proposed suggestions above and have no more to say. I'd let the members debate it out.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mr. Mastan. Couldn't make a factual argument and now restoring to insulting "us poor Pakistanis", yesterday was "the Pakistani flag why you kept responding" and today, you are insulting us Pakistanis which represent the Flag too so you are insulting that too!! A few years ago you hated the JFT and kept telling everyone how it was a mistake and we needed "heavies". Today you are so hung up on our JFT that you can't understand the logic from my posts!

It's obvious you are very frustrated. You are a senior person age wise. Same "Pakistani values from school, friends, parents", etc, (that you are criticizing above) TAUGHT ME to respect elders! I've already said my proposed suggestions above and have no more to say. I'd let the members debate it out.

Lastly, you've insulted our Pakistani schools / education, etc. I would LOVE to see your PHD or Master's degree from either Harvard, Yale or MIT. If you don't have qualifications from one of these three, you don't get to act like the most educated person on this planet. Thx but NO Thx. Please don't disrespect my country, it's people / military / values!

On JF-17 and it's Production along with J-10, I've already said my proposed suggestions above and have no more to say. I'd let the members debate it out.

Hi,

Most members are followers---. they don't have anything to say---.

My education---it is 12 grade----. Pakistani Harvard---yale or MIT graduates have not brought back much to pakistan---.

It is not about education---but it is about your understanding of the issue---.

You fight a war with not what you have in stock---but what your supply line is going to look like when the war starts---.

So---once you start your production of J10's / JFT's in pakistan---the chinese would end production in china---.

By the 3rd day of the war---all your fighter aircraft industry is destroyed---. So where are your new aircraft going to show up from---?

As for pakistani education system---it is one of the worst in the world---the only country in the world---where education growth is in negative---.

I act like a well informed person who strives hard to seek knowledge---.

The US is not bound by Yale---MIT or Harvard---. Every school produces able and capable students---.

 

[Super Falcon]

Qatar and turkey can use them very well for cost effective training and achieving better air war awearness for it's pilots by less using fence Rafales typhoons and bring their life span and airframe life increased to 10 years more than flying them more often in useless training

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The german lost the 2nd world war because the american supply line was beyond their reach---.

And any other nation---who would want to fight them---if they can't reach the US production and supply line---they will suffer bad---.

China is pakistan's supply line far from enemy strike---.

In the first 3 days of war---the enemy will lose over 125 + aircraft---. Paf will lose about the same number----.

It will be in desperate need of more aircraft---. If it could lay hands on another 125 aircraft---it could smash the enemy to kindgom come---.

Only way that could happen would be the chinese production going on---. If chinese production is shut off---just because we want to do it on our own---we are doomed.

The question that needs an answer is why would a paksitani want to prejudice pakistan's security and on what grounds---.

Answers are welcome---.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Hi,

Most members are followers---. they don't have anything to say---.

My education---it is 12 grade----. Pakistani Harvard---yale or MIT graduates have not brought back much to pakistan---.

It is not about education---but it is about your understanding of the issue---.

You fight a war with not what you have in stock---but what your supply line is going to look like when the war starts---.

So---once you start your production of J10's / JFT's in pakistan---the chinese would end production in china---.

By the 3rd day of the war---all your fighter aircraft industry is destroyed---. So where are your new aircraft going to show up from---?

As for pakistani education system---it is one of the worst in the world---the only country in the world---where education growth is in negative---.

I act like a well informed person who strives hard to seek knowledge---.

The US is not bound by Yale---MIT or Harvard---. Every school produces able and capable students---.

There is A LOT of talent in Pakistan. Not to sound rude, but average Pakistani /Indian / Chinese student is above IQ compared to an average European or an American (or majority of nations), Period. That's why you see global engineering, scientific, medical and even some financial institutes dominated with "brown and yellow" (as white folks refer to Indian-Pakistani and Chinese / Taiwanese / Malaysians, etc) Our 8th grade child who has "done" some hard work, can walk in and out of an American high school diploma. And I am speaking based on facts that I have, direct 1:1 contact with such kids. One of the little girls at 16 went to the US from an average school in Karachi, passed their high school diploma with 99 percentile and was in the Med School at age 17! The list is long. Don't underestimate our education and talent. We may be behind in latest Science and Tech, but we are much ahead in Math's and that's compute and computing is everything.

American is ahead due to three things, one being "finished goods" and product design, IPhone, Windows, Apple Watch, Uber, SpaceX are examples of that established product design and then manufacturing capability to deliver across the globe. In summary it's: 1: Product Design (and Global Manufacturing & Rollout), 2: Stock - Assets management market and 3: Military Industrial Complex. Now once these became established institutes by generation 1 who started or expanded these post WWII, you can take average students from regular universities and dump them here. They'll do well due to established nature of these institutes and repeating the same work on knowledge base with more advancements with time. Similar to what I'm suggesting WE DO with JFT manufacturing to continue on and take J-10C next as the institute's now matured enough!

I never even remotely applied the notion that the J-10 manufacturing will end in China. They will continue to re-build / upgrade / fix the 550-600 they have produced. It's just a bargain from a Pakistan's standpoint. The cost savings from acquiring 100+ units based on local assembly would go into purchasing that production line! And we'd save billions long term on integration cost of various Western / Turkish weapons too. That's double the benefit. We are simply executing instructions by trained professionals given to PAF's trained professionals on how to use a manufacturing plant that's produced 600 J-10's and build, test, deploy these jets. It's a low risk operation. Much lower than the JFT as it was a brand new plane!

 

[Ghessan]

Hi,

I wrote on this forum a long time ago---why full production should not be brought here---.

1. I don't think we have the funds to buy machines that produce 48% JFT in china---or even J10's. Even if we did---we should not get involved.

2. Right now---the JF17 is the pride and joy of the chinese engineers---& same hold true for the J 10 series as well. So---when the best of the best of the chinese engineers are taking care of our problem---I do not see any reason to own that problem---.

Once we get 100% production here---it is no longer chinese baby---. So they would not be vested in further development of this aircraft with the intensity that show now---.

3. To produce 100% aircraft---is way way beyond our financial capabilities---.

4. The biggest problem that we will come across---all failures will be ours to own---.

These are just a few things to consider---amongst many others---.

people don't understand, point 4 is very important to understand in particular when you have no back up of research and or experience to handle such situations. and then run back with lot of bucks for help.

big mouth never learn, have the habit of speak more and listen to learn less. and then comes ego, based on nothing to be proud of, this is us unfortunately.

 

[Ghessan]

Hi,

The german lost the 2nd world war because the american supply line was beyond their reach---.

And any other nation---who would want to fight them---if they can't reach the US production and supply line---they will suffer bad---.

China is pakistan's supply line far from enemy strike---.

In the first 3 days of war---the enemy will lose over 125 + aircraft---. Paf will lose about the same number----.

It will be in desperate need of more aircraft---. If it could lay hands on another 125 aircraft---it could smash the enemy to kindgom come---.

Only way that could happen would be the chinese production going on---. If chinese production is shut off---just because we want to do it on our own---we are doomed.

The question that needs an answer is why would a paksitani want to prejudice pakistan's security and on what grounds---.

Answers are welcome---.

we will have this benefit for the first time for our front end machine, in particular for air force.

this was enjoyed by India and we never could sustain the war beyond a week or two. Had India prolonged the war we would be in deep trouble.

with our supplier next door with a production process keep going which surely will be hit during war if we have it solely at PAC,

besides we may not be in a position to manufacture more during war time due to raw material procurement and our liquidity situation, we know consequences that would have in this case, we cannot compromise.

 

[araz]

Sounds like we should stick to Windows 9X instead of building XP and later 10/11!! I hope this sentence tells you the flaws in the argument above. We as a country MUST become innovative creatively. We did that with the JFT (60-40% manufacturing and now we are moving on to AESA, etc locally assembled). Same thing is needed for our top tier fighter also.

When we trained the engineers for the JFT, we said we were building "centers of excellence". We can re-train the SAME senior engineers for J-10C and their knowledge base helps people below them to move up on JFT yet use their expertise when need be. That's how "centers of excellences" are build and teams expanded to do other things. This approach was already started with the JFT and must go on towards innovation in Pakistan. Turkey did this exact thing with the F-16 local assembly. Take a look at their aviation industry today!

Secondly, my assessment is based on today's financials. Once our financial situation starts to get better, we can increase whichever's numbers needed for our Hi/Lo to work competitively against India, meaning more JFT's or J10C's or both.

Lastly, in future, you'd be reducing J-10/JFT's CAP load with supplementation from Akinci and KizilElma. We are official partners in the TFX program now also. Turkish don't work on Chinese systems and the Chinese don't want NATO in their projects. We'd need to use separate super expensive tech support / consulting services to integrate weapons into Chinese platforms and we'd save this expense also, if we were assembling it ourselves. This is long term future planning but everyone seems to be stuck with little scope and today.

I think enough is so I rest my case. I'll let you all comments and let's see what the PAF does wrt to these platforms.

Sir.
Your analagy of 9x VS xp is wrong. You are failing to understand the counter argument. You willl not be able to do with the J10 what you do with the JFT. Long ago an AC said the upgrade potential of the JFT is far more than the J10. We continue to evolve the JFT because of 20 years of understanding the architecture and what the limits of it are. You can try and get the J10s but technically the drawbacks will be massive. Lack of upgradability (depending on Chinese consent which will not be forth coming as it exposes their fighter to outside forces) and complexity and the time required to understand and master it, the cost of setting up and the tooling required for a new line will add to your costs and difficulties.
My last post on the topic.
Regards
A

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Sir.
Your analagy of 9x VS xp is wrong. You are failing to understand the counter argument. You willl not be able to do with the J10 what you do with the JFT. Long ago an AC said the upgrade potential of the JFT is far more than the J10. We continue to evolve the JFT because of 20 years of understanding the architecture and what the limits of it are. You can try and get the J10s but technically the drawbacks will be massive. Lack of upgradability (depending on Chinese consent which will not be forth coming as it exposes their fighter to outside forces) and complexity and the time required to understand and master it, the cost of setting up and the tooling required for a new line will add to your costs and difficulties.
My last post on the topic.
Regards
A

Exactly and Moreover, J-10C is an expensive aircraft for Pakistan (with our extremely limited resources). The J-10Cs are for limited numbers. PAF HI/Low combination means the Hi platforms will always be in very limited numbers. It will be insanely expensive to setup entire production lines in Pakistan, train everyone on it and then produce the aircrafts. The setting up production lines and then producing will also see good 6-7 years for first batch. Why would we bother to pay so much for limited aircrafts.
I don't understand why we are even discussing this topic at first hand.
Everyone needs to understand economy, its importance. This is way more important even for War then our wishlist for military. If you have not invested in your economy then you simply cannot win wars. You may win limited conflicts like 27th Feb 2019. But for long, sustained war you need extremely strong economy. The oil consumption is crazy as entire military machine runs on oil. Do we have any money for sustain oil imports during war? Do we have enough money for food and other essentials during full scale war ? I wonder how can people crave for military wishlist in these times of destroyed economy. We need nothing more for military, even we did extra spending where we could have surely managed for-example it was not emergency like sitation that we spent nearly 1 billions USD on VT-4s and probably will pay upto 2 Bil for more numbers. Wars are win with complete national strength in which economy is the strongest element.
We as a nation needs to collectively think and understand that our focus should be ECONOMY. Not military goods. Once our economy is strong, we won't need to worry about anything else. We should keep minimum deterrence but we simply cannot afford beating india in military purchases. We simply cannot buy 100s of J-10Cs. Why its so hard to understand?
JF-17 is a blessing for PAF. A low cost fighter with modern day avionics & missiles. That we can procure in numbers.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Hi,

Most members are followers---. they don't have anything to say---.

My education---it is 12 grade----. Pakistani Harvard---yale or MIT graduates have not brought back much to pakistan---.

It is not about education---but it is about your understanding of the issue---.

You fight a war with not what you have in stock---but what your supply line is going to look like when the war starts---.

So---once you start your production of J10's / JFT's in pakistan---the chinese would end production in china---.

By the 3rd day of the war---all your fighter aircraft industry is destroyed---. So where are your new aircraft going to show up from---?

As for pakistani education system---it is one of the worst in the world---the only country in the world---where education growth is in negative---.

I act like a well informed person who strives hard to seek knowledge---.

The US is not bound by Yale---MIT or Harvard---. Every school produces able and capable students---.

A university in Aus did a study according to which 70% of the ceo/top level management did at best had a high school diploma n certifications in various fields.
According to this study most top level management entered work place at a very young age n with time they gained experience n rose in their respective organizations.....that's the crux of it all.
From my own experience in the world all degrees /diplomas have a shelf life while actual work experience trumps it all.

So most Pakistani don't stand a chance as here thr culture is u study first n work later while in the western world kids ate encouraged to work from a very young age like house chores, when they reach high school they are usually working in a 7/11 or mcdonalds or petrol station etc...by the time reach university they have 2-4 years of work experience. When they leave university they r in mid level management.
Compared thos to a Pakistani student n he stands no chance so most fake job experience .

 

[aviator_fan]

Hi,

Most members are followers---. they don't have anything to say---.

My education---it is 12 grade----. Pakistani Harvard---yale or MIT graduates have not brought back much to pakistan---.

It is not about education---but it is about your understanding of the issue---.

You fight a war with not what you have in stock---but what your supply line is going to look like when the war starts---.

So---once you start your production of J10's / JFT's in pakistan---the chinese would end production in china---.

By the 3rd day of the war---all your fighter aircraft industry is destroyed---. So where are your new aircraft going to show up from---?

As for pakistani education system---it is one of the worst in the world---the only country in the world---where education growth is in negative---.

I act like a well informed person who strives hard to seek knowledge---.

The US is not bound by Yale---MIT or Harvard---. Every school produces able and capable students---.

too much on your US juice. US Education authorities themselves admit they are way behind other comparable countries with PISA testing. So stop believing in US education system more than the US teachers that teach in it. Only if you were Finnish and talking about Finland would you be excused for this hyperbole.

 

[MastanKhan]

too much on your US juice. US Education authorities themselves admit they are way behind other comparable countries with PISA testing. So stop believing in US education system more than the US teachers that teach in it. Only if you were Finnish and talking about Finland would you be excused for this hyperbole.

Hi,

If that makes you happy---who am I to object---.

Many have made claims---but at the end of the day---they all come to the US to get educated---.