Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[Horse_Rider]

I think unless your requirement exceeds 150 aircrafts the assembly will not be a viable option financially. The other question is the technical capability at hand to assemble the J10C and the Chinese willingness to let you do so.
A

Thank you . Someone understood my gibberish and started a sensible discussion. I think overtime with India acquiring more 4th gen++ platforms as well as one or two 5th gens, Pakistan (is being) and will be put in a position to offset those by acquiring more J-10C's. The beauty of the J-10C platform is that it literally fulfills essentially all PAF requirements, i.e. advance tech and sensors, single engine, speed, agility, loadout, etc. Which is where I think we should stop the JFT at block III and complete that order and move onto standardizing the J-10C and it's future variants via local assembly.

India cancelled and dabbled with Rafale for like a decade ONLY to force the French to allow them to license build it locally to standardize it and make AMCA their stealth platform. The French didn't budge. J-10 is our Rafale so we need to standardize it.

The Chinese would love to sell us the manufacturing line if we pay for it. It's a win-win for them. They've already made use of the current production line by producing over 500 J-10's. They are now phasing out future development of the J-10 platform, selling it's manufacturing line to a third tier aircraft manufacturer to essentially use it for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild, etc. J-10 now has a limited role in the Chinese military.

So it's very feasible for us to acquire the assembly line for less or more of the same amount we'd be building a "rebuild" factory 10 years from now. If we don't standardize the J-10 platform thinking long term now, we'd be forced to procure it like the Mirages!

We are an official partner in the TFX now, plus KizilElma and Akinci are coming too. We just need a J-10C like advanced workhorse beyond the JFT and we are covered for the next 30 years.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Maray bhai we have more then 200 ac to replace...now at the current production rate of our jf 17 thunder ...it would take PAF more then a decade to replace them. But the threat from India is now not a decade from now......hence the off the shelf purchase of j10 to meet the threat n increase our capability.
We are looking for used f16 n if PAF can aquire them then that would make an immediate impact in lifting our capability plus PAF has the experience n the support infrastructure, so theirs no familiarization time. The only way PAF will go for new f16 is if they come from the money owed by the u.s to Pakistan under csf....other then that PAF is not buying.
Theirs no problem with the thunder, its n excellent fighter tailor made for PAF.

See above please.

 

[Ghessan]

Oh good lord why the same question again and again and again

Why does France have so many different aircraft
Why does America have f15, f16, f18, f35, f22
Why does uk have so many fighters.

Why don't people engage their brains before their keyboard ?????

we saw infront of our eyes how libraries eliminated from cities in our country.

what else i say.

 

[MastanKhan]

Can sledge hammers kill humans when hit right? just like a bullet from an AR or AK-47 rifles or a Sig-P226 pistol's bullet? They all kill, period. Should we know start fielding people with hammers instead of JFT or J-10CE? I think I'm done with this argument.

Hi,

Once you learn to not make conversation silly---you will begin to raise the quality of your writing---.

Otherwise, we'd spend the same amount of money on a "rebuild factory" ten years from now, vs. buying a manufacturing line today and roll the cost of 72-90 into a local assembly JV. We can then increase the J-10C numbers for PAF also as per unit cost will decrease under local assembly scenario even with limited ToT.

Hi,

It is because of our geography that we do not need a full fledged manufacturing facility for fighters aircrafts in pakistan.

China is still the perfect location to produce our machines---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If someone missed this article----another chance t read it.

Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot

The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On condition…

hushkit.net

You've spent so much time and energy just to argue for the sake of arguments and that's unproductive. We are both saying the same thing! So what's there to argue about?

Bringing in the US and F-35 / F-16/ F-15 is confusing the readers and the details of these have nothing to do with the JFT and J-10CE. I can explain why but it's not needed here. Hopefully the case is closed.

Hi,

With 120 post---and 2 weeks on this forum---you have a long ways to go---.

Be grateful that I respond to your posts---it is for the green flag---try---you might learn something---.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Hi,

If someone missed this article----another chance t read it.

Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot

The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On condition…

hushkit.net

Hi,

With 120 post---and 2 weeks on this forum---you have a long ways to go---.

Be grateful that I respond to your posts---it is for the green flag---try---you might learn something---.

Hi,

Once you learn to not make conversation silly---you will begin to raise the quality of your writing---.


Hi,

It is because of our geography that we do not need a full fledged manufacturing facility for fighters aircrafts in pakistan.

China is still the perfect location to produce our machines---.

Ok Mr. Mastan. I should be "grateful" that you respond to my posts? That's some arrogance. You don't have to respond to my posts. You are welcome to take your 50 year experience selling 4 wheel fighter jets to other posts. We salute the green flag, we aren't obligated by it to show arrogance or make excuses. Sometimes it's healthy to just let the topic go on without interfering if you don't have the facts to back up claims.

It's useless to discuss further. But if the Chinese are "so capable in building our equipment" as per your post, then why did we spend half a billion dollars to start the JFT local assembly to begin with? The Chinese could've done it for us much cheaper per your logic?

I've read your posts from years ago where you use to diss the JFT and cry about PAF needing "heavies". Apparently, the reality has kicked in now after seeing the JFT perform so well.

Lastly, the JFT makes a GREAT LO of the PAF's HI-LO and the J-10C makes the great HI! If both these options are locally produced (like the JFT even 50-60% in J-10C's case) it's a win-win situation for both Pakistan and China. Ciao!

 

[MastanKhan]

Ok Mr. Mastan. I should be "grateful" that you respond to my posts? That's some arrogance. You don't have to respond to my posts. You are welcome to take your 50 year experience selling 4 wheel fighter jets to other posts. We salute the green flag, we aren't obligated by it to show arrogance or make excuses. Sometimes it's healthy to just let the topic go on without interfering if you don't have the facts to back up claims.

It's useless to discuss further. But if the Chinese are "so capable in building our equipment" as per your post, then why did we spend half a billion dollars to start the JFT local assembly to begin with? The Chinese could've done it for us much cheaper per your logic?

I've read your posts from years ago where you use to diss the JFT and cry about PAF needing "heavies". Apparently, the reality has kicked in now after seeing the JFT perform so well.

Lastly, the JFT makes a GREAT LO of the PAF's HI-LO and the J-10C makes the great HI! If both these options are locally produced (like the JFT even 50-60% in J-10C's case) it's a win-win situation for both Pakistan and China. Ciao!

Hi,

You won't understand that---. So---why not leave it alone---.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

astly, the JFT makes a GREAT LO of the PAF's HI-LO and the J-10C makes the great HI! If both these options are locally produced (like the JFT even 50-60% in J-10C's case) it's a win-win situation for both Pakistan and China. Ciao!

There's no point in spending massive $$$ for local assembly line for J-10Cs. No ones really buying this argument. It will be far more cheaper for us to get these off the shelf. I am certain we are not going to see massive J-10Cs numbers in this decade as some people are wishing for. Not a chance with default like economy.

 

[Ghessan]

Hi,

If someone missed this article----another chance t read it.

Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot

The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On condition…

hushkit.net

Hi,

With 120 post---and 2 weeks on this forum---you have a long ways to go---.

Be grateful that I respond to your posts---it is for the green flag---try---you might learn something---.

i was watching what was going on and the result is as expected even other senior members were too kind.

sensed some nonsense, but we are not grateful. we are self claimed intellects.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Thank you . Someone understood my gibberish and started a sensible discussion. I think overtime with India acquiring more 4th gen++ platforms as well as one or two 5th gens, Pakistan (is being) and will be put in a position to offset those by acquiring more J-10C's. The beauty of the J-10C platform is that it literally fulfills essentially all PAF requirements, i.e. advance tech and sensors, single engine, speed, agility, loadout, etc. Which is where I think we should stop the JFT at block III and complete that order and move onto standardizing the J-10C and it's future variants via local assembly.

India cancelled and dabbled with Rafale for like a decade ONLY to force the French to allow them to license build it locally to standardize it and make AMCA their stealth platform. The French didn't budge. J-10 is our Rafale so we need to standardize it.

The Chinese would love to sell us the manufacturing line if we pay for it. It's a win-win for them. They've already made use of the current production line by producing over 500 J-10's. They are now phasing out future development of the J-10 platform, selling it's manufacturing line to a third tier aircraft manufacturer to essentially use it for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild, etc. J-10 now has a limited role in the Chinese military.

So it's very feasible for us to acquire the assembly line for less or more of the same amount we'd be building a "rebuild" factory 10 years from now. If we don't standardize the J-10 platform thinking long term now, we'd be forced to procure it like the Mirages!

We are an official partner in the TFX now, plus KizilElma and Akinci are coming too. We just need a J-10C like advanced workhorse beyond the JFT and we are covered for the next 30 years.

You cant afford to build a much cheaper JF-17 in house already given the shit economy. How are you proposing not only paying for building another manufacturing line, training engineers to build the aircraft and then financing it actually. Heck you sign the deal tomorrow and you wont have a single J-10 produced for at least 5 years.

Waste of time and money (lack there of). Concentrate on being able to afford just building enough JF-17 B-IIIs for now. Chadar dekh kar paoon phalanay chahiyan

 

[Corax]

Ok Mr. Mastan. I should be "grateful" that you respond to my posts? That's some arrogance. You don't have to respond to my posts. You are welcome to take your 50 year experience selling 4 wheel fighter jets to other posts. We salute the green flag, we aren't obligated by it to show arrogance or make excuses. Sometimes it's healthy to just let the topic go on without interfering if you don't have the facts to back up claims.

It's useless to discuss further. But if the Chinese are "so capable in building our equipment" as per your post, then why did we spend half a billion dollars to start the JFT local assembly to begin with? The Chinese could've done it for us much cheaper per your logic?

I've read your posts from years ago where you use to diss the JFT and cry about PAF needing "heavies". Apparently, the reality has kicked in now after seeing the JFT perform so well.

Lastly, the JFT makes a GREAT LO of the PAF's HI-LO and the J-10C makes the great HI! If both these options are locally produced (like the JFT even 50-60% in J-10C's case) it's a win-win situation for both Pakistan and China. Ciao!

Don't drag yourself down. I've spent a lifetime rationalising with his ilk, it's pointless...as Obi Wan once said "Who's the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?"

 

[araz]

Thank you . Someone understood my gibberish and started a sensible discussion. I think overtime with India acquiring more 4th gen++ platforms as well as one or two 5th gens, Pakistan (is being) and will be put in a position to offset those by acquiring more J-10C's. The beauty of the J-10C platform is that it literally fulfills essentially all PAF requirements, i.e. advance tech and sensors, single engine, speed, agility, loadout, etc. Which is where I think we should stop the JFT at block III and complete that order and move onto standardizing the J-10C and it's future variants via local assembly.

India cancelled and dabbled with Rafale for like a decade ONLY to force the French to allow them to license build it locally to standardize it and make AMCA their stealth platform. The French didn't budge. J-10 is our Rafale so we need to standardize it.

The Chinese would love to sell us the manufacturing line if we pay for it. It's a win-win for them. They've already made use of the current production line by producing over 500 J-10's. They are now phasing out future development of the J-10 platform, selling it's manufacturing line to a third tier aircraft manufacturer to essentially use it for maintenance / upgrades / rebuild, etc. J-10 now has a limited role in the Chinese military.

So it's very feasible for us to acquire the assembly line for less or more of the same amount we'd be building a "rebuild" factory 10 years from now. If we don't standardize the J-10 platform thinking long term now, we'd be forced to procure it like the Mirages!

We are an official partner in the TFX now, plus KizilElma and Akinci are coming too. We just need a J-10C like advanced workhorse beyond the JFT and we are covered for the next 30 years.

A couple of observations. You will continue to require a Hi Lo combo and therefore the need for more JFTs. I think the airframe life of the first block was 4k hrs which may mean replacements in mid 40s if I remember correctly. This means you will continue to require newer air frames. Upgradability is another issue and whereas we can get cooperation from multiple sources for the JFT we cannot do the same to the J10s. Medum weight fighters on their own will be more cash consumptive for us than smaller fighters which we build and upgrade in house. In order to do so we would need the Chinese to sell us the j10 design and allow us to upgrade it which would be a tall order. So in short your suggestion will kill off the aviation sector in Pakistan in one sweep. The JFT needs to go on.
You may also find that the J10 is a much more complex design which PAF will struggle to build and maintain as there experience with planes is still in its infancy. So not a good idea.
The JFT is the ghar ki Murghi which is laying eggs. Dont try replacing what you have which is productive in the hope of getting golden eggs. You could end up with nothing.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

i was watching what was going on and the result is as expected even other senior members were too kind.

sensed some nonsense, but we are not grateful. we are self claimed intellects.

Hi,

I wrote on this forum a long time ago---why full production should not be brought here---.

1. I don't think we have the funds to buy machines that produce 48% JFT in china---or even J10's. Even if we did---we should not get involved.

2. Right now---the JF17 is the pride and joy of the chinese engineers---& same hold true for the J 10 series as well. So---when the best of the best of the chinese engineers are taking care of our problem---I do not see any reason to own that problem---.

Once we get 100% production here---it is no longer chinese baby---. So they would not be vested in further development of this aircraft with the intensity that show now---.

3. To produce 100% aircraft---is way way beyond our financial capabilities---.

4. The biggest problem that we will come across---all failures will be ours to own---.

These are just a few things to consider---amongst many others---.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Don't drag yourself down. I've spent a lifetime rationalising with his ilk, it's pointless...as Obi Wan once said "Who's the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?"

You are a smart man, I'd gladly take your and Obi Wan Kanobi's advise

 

[Horse_Rider]

A couple of observations. You will continue to require a Hi Lo combo and therefore the need for more JFTs. I think the airframe life of the first block was 4k hrs which may mean replacements in mid 40s if I remember correctly. This means you will continue to require newer air frames. Upgradability is another issue and whereas we can get cooperation from multiple sources for the JFT we cannot do the same to the J10s. Medum weight fighters on their own will be more cash consumptive for us than smaller fighters which we build and upgrade in house. In order to do so we would need the Chinese to sell us the j10 design and allow us to upgrade it which would be a tall order. So in short your suggestion will kill off the aviation sector in Pakistan in one sweep. The JFT needs to go on.
You may also find that the J10 is a much more complex design which PAF will struggle to build and maintain as there experience with planes is still in its infancy. So not a good idea.
The JFT is the ghar ki Murghi which is laying eggs. Dont try replacing what you have which is productive in the hope of getting golden eggs. You could end up with nothing.
A

Sounds like we should stick to Windows 9X instead of building XP and later 10/11!! I hope this sentence tells you the flaws in the argument above. We as a country MUST become innovative creatively. We did that with the JFT (60-40% manufacturing and now we are moving on to AESA, etc locally assembled). Same thing is needed for our top tier fighter also.

When we trained the engineers for the JFT, we said we were building "centers of excellence". We can re-train the SAME senior engineers for J-10C and their knowledge base helps people below them to move up on JFT yet use their expertise when need be. That's how "centers of excellences" are build and teams expanded to do other things. This approach was already started with the JFT and must go on towards innovation in Pakistan. Turkey did this exact thing with the F-16 local assembly. Take a look at their aviation industry today!

Secondly, my assessment is based on today's financials. Once our financial situation starts to get better, we can increase whichever's numbers needed for our Hi/Lo to work competitively against India, meaning more JFT's or J10C's or both.

Lastly, in future, you'd be reducing J-10/JFT's CAP load with supplementation from Akinci and KizilElma. We are official partners in the TFX program now also. Turkish don't work on Chinese systems and the Chinese don't want NATO in their projects. We'd need to use separate super expensive tech support / consulting services to integrate weapons into Chinese platforms and we'd save this expense also, if we were assembling it ourselves. This is long term future planning but everyone seems to be stuck with little scope and today.

I think enough is so I rest my case. I'll let you all comments and let's see what the PAF does wrt to these platforms.