Expatriate Pakistanis visit Israel

[Averroes]

Averroes,

I'll try reply you later today.

Please do, but there is no way Israel's military aggression and ruthless creation can be defended on an academic level, however I suppose you will give your reasoning for an alliance with Israel.

I still hold that I'd rather die in honour by the hands of my enemy, than live with the shame of being an israeli ally.

thats what allied forces in the name of so called war on terror are doing in Iraq, Afghanistan and may be in future some more countries so did we disconnect our deplomatic ties those countries.?

Didn't Pakistan sign on as an ally with them due to the fact that at that point in time, the tensions between Pak & India were at highest, and it was the only decision to be made? Besides Pak has always maintained that Iraq was a mistake, but AFghanistan was not. Taliban were a menace to all. American soldiers will be american soldiers, they will rape, kill children, massacre families

As Pakistan is falling out of US interests, I think they should further strengthen bonds with the Islamic nations, as Pakistan is the strongest of them all.

 

[Neo]

It is war, or rather a genocide. What do you call indiscriminate killing of civilians? What do you call setting up an apartheid wall? What do you call the consistent land grab that Zionists keep doing yearly?

Its a combination of both, one of the bloodiest and longlasting conflicts ever with civil caualties on both sides.

Hamas are in no way responsible, read history, check up on the facts. Israel's founding fathers were terrorists: they started with blowing up buses, consolates, and remember King david hotel. Ben gurion etc. all these guys were mass murderors, and the most disgusting one sharon who is dead or whatever.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

I'm affraid you're right here, but please note that Hamas adapted the same tactics when the conflict matured.

Enjoy religious freedom you say?

How do you explain the fact that Israel has demolished 1000 + Mosques?

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=7680

Its sad, numerous mosques have been demolished over the years but so have many sysnagogues when muslims conquered the Arab peninsula including Palestine.
There's not a single temple left in Holy cities of Mecca and Medina!

Despite the distruction, muslims are not prohibited to practice the religion on Israeli soil.

Israel is a "Jewish" state, yet nothing about it is Jewish. You are right that it is not religion, rather Zionist ideology versus Islam.

Correct!

 

[Neo]

We recognize Israel's existence, but we do not recognize it's right to exist as it is a nucleus of all evil.

I never said we should.

How can you even consider diplomatic connections with a state that systematically kills children, that systematically destroys any hope of peace, commits the most violent of crimes in the most mind numbingly procedures? You know in the first intifadha, they broke 20,000 children's bones according to Swedish save the children?

Are we talking politics or morale and idealism?
Remember Rwanda and Burundi massacres, or Liberia and Somalia?
Did we break diplomatic ties with these countries?

I understand your view, which takes no heed to Israeli actions, rather a selfish move in acquiring military equipment offered by Israel, it is by no means a just move. We have morals I'm afraid, and there are other means of obtaining military technology.

This is where you're wrong bro! Even if Pakistan manages to engage diplomatic ties with Israel, its unlikely that we'll be buying weapons or technology from them, not for decades!!
What we have to gain from this move is widening our influence and try to weaken the growing Indo-Israel ties.
Surely Israel will reconsider her strategic ties with India if there's a regocnintion in the cards from the only nuclear powered islamic nation.
Don't underestimate our importance!

 

[Averroes]

Its a combination of both, one of the bloodiest and longlasting conflicts ever with civil caualties on both sides.

3:1 in civilian casualties, 8:1 when it comes to Children.

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday. http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1643573,00.html

It is not both sides, it is one sided. I do not have the time, but look into BtSelem, israeli human rights record.

Are we talking politics or morale and idealism?
Remember Rwanda and Burundi massacres, or Liberia and Somalia?
Did we break diplomatic ties with these countries?

Hmm... I already posted information on who armed Rwanda. and Charles Tayler of Liberia.

Its sad, numerous mosques have been demolished over the years but so have many sysnagogues when muslims conquered the Arab peninsula including Palestine.
There's not a single temple left in Holy cities of Mecca and Medina!

Jews enjoy great rights in Muslim countries, for example look at Iran, jerusalem post had an article last yr about Iranian jews moving back to Iran from Israel. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1131043721479&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

I'm affraid you're right here, but please note that Hamas adapted the same tactics when the conflict matured.

But there is a distinct difference, they're attacks are done solely in retalliation, and they're the ones who initiate cease fires. Yet whenever Hamas or PA try to "recognize" Israel, they go into launch mode. If you'll observe, in July 2002 i think, when Hamas together with european countries were brokering a cease fire and Israel found out, they dropped a several tonne bomb on a crowded civilian building killing dozens of children.

Despite the distruction, muslims are not prohibited to practice the religion on Israeli soil.

It's Palestinian soil stolen from Them. And? It's a fundamental Human right to practice your religion, that doesn't give any points to Israel, but what does show their face are not only the thousand mosque desecrations, but the banning of prayer at mosques, and the killing of 29 by an American Jew 94, and here are recent mosque desecrations.

Palestinian Mosques desecrated

No. 245 / October 21 – 28, 2005
- Desecration of Al-Bahar Mosque in Jaffa
No. 236 / August 19 – 26, 2005
- Jewish Citizens Throw Pig's Head in Jaffa Mosque
No. 235 / August 12 - 19, 2005
Hittin Mosque Closed by ILA
No. 234 / August 5 – 12, 2005
- Mosque Desecrated by Spray Painting and Distribution of **** Images
No. 224 / May 27 – June 3, 2005
- Police Bans Prayer in Be’er Sheva Mosque
No. 215 / March 25 – April 1st, 2005
- Desecration of Mosque in Qisariya (Cesarea)
No. 209/ February 11-18, 2005
- Great Mosque of Bir Saba' (Beer Sheva) to be Converted into Museum
No. 194/ 29 October - 5 November 2004
- Attack on Sarfand Mosque
No. 187/ 10 - 17 September 2004
- Al-Aqsa Mosque Desecrated
No. 182/ 6 - 13 August 2004
- Assault on Hasan Bik mosque in Yafa
No. 174/ June 11 - 18, 2004
- Attempt to Burn Down al-Omery Mosque in Tiberias
No. 169/ 7 - 14 May 2004
- Dance Party in Ber as-Saba’ Mosque
No. 161/ 13 - 19 March 2004
- the “Forty Mosque” Destroyed in Act of Arson
No. 150/ 27 December 2003 - 2 January 2004
- Mosque and 12 Houses Demolished in the Negev

http://www.arabhra.org/publications/wrap/wraphome2005.htm

What we have to gain from this move is widening our influence and try to weaken the growing Indo-Israel ties. Don't underestimate our importance!

Don't kid yourself. Hindu - Zionists have a strong bond, and It will just keep on strenghtening, whereas your "cant beat them join them" strategy will have no effect whatsoever. They know what will benefit them, They know Pakistan is their shared threat with India.

Aipac and lionpac in USA have through the years sponsored many conferences for hindus and zionists to build cooperation, heck the butcher of Lebanon, Sharon (lanatullah) visited delhi and said ""We regard India to be one of the most important countries in the world." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3089466.stm

This is a man who couldn't travel to the UK because he faces criminal charges for war crimes and other european countries yet India embraced this Kameena.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

 

[A.Rahman]

nice post Averröes, we really cant trust Isreal or US, remeber how they were jumping when we started our nuclear program

 

[Sign*Reader]

Well,

We drew 'first blood' against them when we sided with Arabs in 1967 and 1973, Kargill is nothing compared to the support we provided the arabs.

Times are changing, we need to review our foreign policy and realise that the Israeli conflict is not our 'problem'.
We can contribute more to peace in Middle East as friends rather than enemies.
Israel has issues with Palestineans and her neighbors, its not our war so let them deal with eachother.

If sworn enemies like French, Germans and English can live in peace why can't we?

I would like to pitch my two cents in response to Neo’s day B4 yesterday’s post:

We drew 'first blood' against them when we sided with Arabs in 1967 and 1973, Kargill is nothing compared to the support we provided the arabs.

What do mean by "We drew " first blood--- Pakistan had no good relations with Nasserite Egypt 1967, --What kind of support RU talking about? Can substantiate your stand?

When was Pakistan in any shape or form to support in a war which lasted SIX days? Do you care to remember Pakistan’s own predicament in 1965 war with India which lasted 3 weeks and Pakistan had no ammunition supply left in house. I was an eye witness to the PIA’s night shuttles with few planes it had to get any ammunition from Ankara or Tehran will give. It was woefully weak state of affair. You are saying that Pakistan was able to help the Arabs in less than 2 years time against the lightening preemptive attack by the Jewish state. You must be kidding? Where is your evidence? I believe you are misleading the forum with your baseless assertions.

Yes, I do know the rotten role played by Pakistan Army officers directing under ZIA in infamous Black September massacre of Palestinians. Historically Pakistani army has been a mercenary force for the Anglo masters ever since the WW2. And Pakistanis don't know bcs they weren't educated or learned enough to find the true facts of their history. The country is an occupied state by its praetorians and there is no guts in the nation to fight that yoke off in near future, it is not part of the genetic make up of most people in Pakistan.

Your political ( Jinnah and the British lackey Nawabs like Liaqat and the rest of the landowners) leaders supplied the poor hapless men in the form of ultra cheap soldiers from their areas to die for the Anglo masters in the colonial white men's war in exchange for a new Nawabi state called Pakistan.

It was not a rocket science for the army generals to figure out that quickly that who should occupy that seat of power call it what ever you like, Governor General/ Martial Law ( Law of Jungle) Administrator , President or dog catcher in chief or any title you can think of. Remember what Mao said, about the politics and its relationship to the size of gun. They are all lackeys of Anglo-American neo colonialism racket.
The Prime Minister lost the power of the that office with First Martial Law if you know when was that? This is a riddle for you.
This commando Mushy's Kargil's drama was such a farce played on the moronic politician Nawaz Sharif and the topographically illiterate Pakistani masses, the level of ignorance it is crying shame.
Go to a library if you don't have good atlas at home and look at the practicality of climbing 20,000 feet to Kargil glacier and then come down to Srinagar or Jammo at what altitude 1000 feet if you are winning the battles.
What were Pakistanis smoking? Must be good hashish !!!

No body in the world has said that Palestine issue is Pakistan’s prerogative. Pakistan needs to MYOB.
It was her sycophancy to the Anglo-American masters that she jumped in for Afghan wars time and time again not realizing that historically it would be suicidal. Do you remember who set the Durand line?

Neo wrote
If sworn enemies like French, Germans and English can live in peace why can't we?

You think Pakistan has graduated in to that league of big boys being while on dole of American tax payers or neocons whichever way you like to look at.

If Pakistan couldn’t manage East Pakistani affair and ended up in such ignominious defeat, you might think Palestine Israeli and now Iraqi stuff is beyond your pale.
The peace comes after a decisive victory by nations, it a universal rule, platitudes won’t change this rule.

And finally on these expatriate Pakistanis – this term is oxymoronic once you take American citizenship your creed is done whatever you do after that is for your material gain. Yes the Jewish connection is good for materialism, I will grant you that.

How many of these sycophants remember the "raison d’etre" of Pakistan and millions dead at the time of Indian partition?
Weren’t you better off being part of India if your need to serve the Zionists was so great?

Yes, Muslims were so ill prepared and uneducated to manage the destiny of the new nation in comparison to Hindus who were better trained and had waited patiently for independence almost a thousand years, and they had no conflict with Brits on religious grounds. So they are in cahoots with them. You can try whatever the front seats are taken at their table. Good Luck

At least in India no General can dare walk into PM office uninvited.

Peace Bro

 

[Boxcar]

Why must it be all or nothing? Why must it be "if you don't want to kill all the blood sucking zionazis you are Hindu-Zionist asskisser sucking up to the Joo$ for Amerikkkan m0ney"? It is easy to see that a one state solution, no matter who is pushing for it, will be an immoral failure (either Zionist occupation or Baathist style dictatorship or theocratic dictatorship or Lebanon style mess). A two state solution is the most reasonable solution and the official goal of the Israeli government (Gaza withdrawl was stage one, "convergence" withdrawl from the West Bank by 2010 is stage two), it is unachievable while under rocket fire every single day, thus the Israeli incursions (in addition to the search for Gilad). If there were no Palestinian rockets fired, Israel could just withdraw behind the barrier , and if they didn't destroy their settlements east of the barrier (assuming no rocket fire), I would kind of want to overthrow the Israeli government too.

 

[A.Rahman]

under current conditions, no way.

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1528

 

[Bull]

American soldiers will be american soldiers, they will rape, kill children, massacre families.

Why is this guy still roaming scott free over here?

The rules apply to everybody, right?

 

[A.Rahman]

Why is this guy still roaming scott free over here?

The rules apply to everybody, right?

Please explain, what has he done?

 

[Bull]

This is where you're wrong bro! Even if Pakistan manages to engage diplomatic ties with Israel, its unlikely that we'll be buying weapons or technology from them, not for decades!!
What we have to gain from this move is widening our influence and try to weaken the growing Indo-Israel ties.
Surely Israel will reconsider her strategic ties with India if there's a regocnintion in the cards from the only nuclear powered islamic nation.
Don't underestimate our importance!

Neo, i think the most important and critical part of India - Israeli friendship is India's access to israeli weapons and if its going to take decades for pakistan to get access to that,it wont hurt Indo Israeli friendship.

Nobody is underestimating your importance,but you wont be able to live as an islamic country after recognising Israel and renewing diplomatic ties..you wont be a aprt of OIC, you will have to face the backlash from the muslims...and so on.Pakistan is finding it hard to maintain a healthy relationship with US, a secular state, So Israel is far far away.

 

[Bull]

It is not both sides, it is one sided. I do not have the time, but look into BtSelem, israeli human rights record. .

You cant blame the Israelis for putting their head down and developing a formidable army and a vibrant country while palestineanes where just mere pawns in the hands of the very arabs.

Jews enjoy great rights in Muslim countries, for example look at Iran, jerusalem post had an article last yr about Iranian jews moving back to Iran from Israel. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1131043721479&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull.

Are you crazy..jews enjoying rights in a Islamic country.Arent they islam's eternal enemy?

But there is a distinct difference, they're attacks are done solely in retalliation, and they're the ones who initiate cease fires. Yet whenever Hamas or PA try to "recognize" Israel, they go into launch mode...

Israel withdrew from Gaza and Lebenon...what did they get in return???

If you'll observe, in July 2002 i think, when Hamas together with european countries were brokering a cease fire and Israel found out, they dropped a several tonne bomb on a crowded civilian building killing dozens of children..

Children hmmmm.. have a look at those pictures.Now of somebody fires those rockets into Israel from that crowd surrounded by children then they are the ones who are putting the childrens life at risk.Israel cant let their civilians die for the sake of palestinean children.

Don't kid yourself. Hindu - Zionists have a strong bond, and It will just keep on strenghtening, whereas your "cant beat them join them" strategy will have no effect whatsoever. They know what will benefit them, They know Pakistan is heir shared threat with India.

The US realised that Pkaistani soil has been used by forces that threaten the world and thats why they asked Mushraff to join WoT or face music.

 

[Bull]

Please explain, what has he done?

What he said in that post..of americans only rape and kill and if they dont they arent amerians...

If u feel that is not offending then just swap the word "American" with "Pakistani" and consider it been said by an indian.

How wud u feel?

 

[A.Rahman]

What he said in that post..of americans only rape and kill and if they dont they arent amerians...

If u feel that is not offending then just swap the word "American" with "Pakistani" and consider it been said by an indian.

How wud u feel?

He was talking about soldiers, they did raped a girl & they do kill civlians for no reason.

 

[Bull]

He was talking about soldiers, they did raped a girl & they do kill civlians for no reason.

So you the moderator of PFF, feels that Americans wont be Americans if they dont kill and rape women and children for no reason.