Expatriate Pakistanis visit Israel

[Neo]

Israel has a problem with non-jews, goyims. The latest barbaric attack on civilians in Gaza is ample proof of this where they use one kidnapped soldier (vs 9,000 palestinians prisoners of which 1,000 are held without any charge or trial of which few hundred are children) and qassam rockets which we know can't do anything, to justify the deployment of their most sophisticated weapons arsenal. 6 israelis have been killed by those qassam crude firework rockets in the last 6 years whereas 60 palestinians killed in the past 6 months by israeli shellings, and with the recent military invasion of gaza they've killed an equal amount in just days.

Arabs just sit there, watching the massacres.

Its unfortuate but again its not out war! Palestine authorities have been unable to stop rocket attacks from its territory into Israel; they are as much responsible for the current crisis as their counterpart.

 

[Neo]

Israel was effective in killing Pakistanis in the 71 war, where they supplied india with the artillery shells.

Like a said in an earlier post we drew first blood in 1948 by not recognising the jewish state and again in 1967 by supporting arab alliance, PAF personnel and equipment became actually involved! Can you blame Israel for supporting our sworn enemy?

Muslim nations like Indonesia supported Pakistan, should India declare war to all our friends for doing that?

During the Kargil War, Israel responded magnificently, despite pressures from various quarters not to supply. UAVs for high altitude surveillance, laser – guided systems and many other items were supplied within 24 hours.26 Israel is reported to have emerged as India’s No.2 defence supplier after Russia, and with costs of Russian spare parts for replacement escalating by 300-500%, Israel may emerge as India’s No. 1 defence supplier. India is presently faced with the daunting prospect of buying immediately $200 million worth of ammunition and further $ 1.5 billion later to make up for losses in recent fires at Indian Army Amunition Depots.27 Israel may be the only source for immediate replacement. http://www.saag.org/papers2/paper131.html

Recognising Israel was one of the smartes thing India has ever done; They used the 'Muslim hate us to' card effectively.
Israel may not be an economic powerhouse, they have a very diverse, sophisticated and advanced defence industry and India has taken full advantage of this new 'friend'.

 

[A.Rahman]

Its unfortuate but again its not out war! Palestine authorities have been unable to stop rocket attacks from its territory into Israel; they are as much responsible for the current crisis as their counterpart.

have we forgotten the Hadith of Rasullullah ?
“The Muslim Ummah is like one body. If the eye is in pain then the whole body is in pain and if the head is in pain then the whole body is in pain”.

our oppressed brothers and sisters are crying out for help. They find that the Muslims of the 21st century are asleep and there is no one to help them. The reason why we Muslims are collapsing is because we do not have any love amongst us. We harbour hatred for one another and our worldly matters and materialistic pursuits have taken over our lives.

It may not be our war, but we can help our brothers in Palestine. (like sending aid?)

Hamas has also played a part in stealing media spot light away from Isreal by commiting terrorist acts in the name of Islam.

In my eyes Hamas & Isreal are both terrorist, both have killed civilians

 

[A.Rahman]

Egypt and Turkey are muslim countries and no longer considered as their enemy as they've recognised Israel and have dipolomatic ties.

Turkey is pretty much secular.

It dosnt really matters if we recognise Isreal or not, the truth is that they exist & have total control of the land.

 

[A.Rahman]

Averröes,

I kind of agree with you, but we have to play along for a while.

The change you are talking about cant come in one day. I say it was good move trying to establish some kind of diplomacy with Isreal, Maybe someday Palestinians & Isrealis can live in peace, like muslims & jews lived side by side in peace during Khalifath.

 

[Neo]

have we forgotten the Hadith of Rasullullah ?
“The Muslim Ummah is like one body. If the eye is in pain then the whole body is in pain and if the head is in pain then the whole body is in pain”.

Kind of agree with you but brother please tell me; What if the body is sick from the inside? We can blame external factors or have a good look and clean our own mess first.

our oppressed brothers and sisters are crying out for help. They find that the Muslims of the 21st century are asleep and there is no one to help them. The reason why we Muslims are collapsing is because we do not have any love amongst us. We harbour hatred for one another and our worldly matters and materialistic pursuits have taken over our lives.

Israel-Palestine is no longer a religious but a political dispute. Palestinians enjoy religious freedom even within the boundries of Israel. If they chose to live seperately its their choice. We should and would help them when their freedom to worship the True God is compromised, which isn't the case here.

It may not be our war, but we can help our brothers in Palestine. (like sending aid?)

But we are helping them, by giving aid! GoP has pledged $4 million finincial package under current fiscal year.

Hamas has also played a part in stealing media spot light away from Isreal by commiting terrorist acts in the name of Islam.

Thats the reason they will never have my support. I have to live in an environment where Islam and muslims are seen as potential threat due these idiots who abused this great religion to serve their own agenda.

In my eyes Hamas & Isreal are both terrorist, both have killed civilians

Them and all other nations doing the same...

 

[Neo]

Turkey is pretty much secular.

True, but so is Islam when practiced in correctly!

It dosnt really matters if we recognise Isreal or not, the truth is that they exist & have total control of the land.

Which brings me better to my pov that we should no longer waste time and opporunity to build trust and contribute to world peace by recognising the sate.
Pakistan is a leading muslim nation, any such move towards Israel would have effect on other 'smaller' muslim nations.
Indonesia and Malaysia are close to open some sort of low level diplomatiuc ties with Tel Aviv.

 

[A.Rahman]

My reply in Green

Kind of agree with you but brother please tell me; What if the body is sick from the inside? We can blame external factors or have a good look and clean our own mess first.
Agreed, first we have to correct ourself. But you cant deny the external factors.

Israel-Palestine is no longer a religious but a political dispute. Palestinians enjoy religious freedom even within the boundries of Israel. If they chose to live seperately its their choice. We should and would help them when their freedom to worship the True God is compromised, which isn't the case here.

I am blaming lack of muslim unity, If we were united we could have helped palestine.


But we are helping them, by giving aid! GoP has pledged $4 million finincial package under current fiscal year.

But will this money go through? I hope it helps them


Thats the reason they will never have my support. I have to live in an environment where Islam and muslims are seen as potential threat due these idiots who abused this great religion to serve their own agenda.


Agreed
Them and all other nations doing the same...

I agree here too

 

[A.Rahman]

My reply in Green

True, but so is Islam when practiced in correctly!

Secularism is an idea and a system of governance. The idea seeks to create a secular man who lives his life without reference to God. It believes in the sufficiency of reason as a guide to life. Conversely, it rejects the authority of religion, as a source of meaning and values. As a system of governance, secularism is a bit less ambitious. On the assumption that life divides into a public and a private sphere, each neatly separable, it seeks to exclude religion from the public sphere. The objective is to create a system of laws that does not favor any religion.

The Qur'an urges man to use his reason and experience to under-stand God, His creation and His Book, and based on this understanding to create-ate a just society. The secular idea is not only incompatible with Islam. In-deed, they must oppose each other.

Democracy is compatible with Islam if its laws are subject to oversight by a council of Islamic scholars.

we must not let any joe moe mullah to make wierd interpretation of Quran, You wil be amazed by what you read about Islam from these uneducated mullahs ( no degree in Islam aur chalay hain fawta dey ney! )




Which brings me better to my pov that we should no longer waste time and opporunity to build trust and contribute to world peace by recognising the sate.
Pakistan is a leading muslim nation, any such move towards Israel would have effect on other 'smaller' muslim nations.
Indonesia and Malaysia are close to open some sort of low level diplomatiuc ties with Tel Aviv.

If this promotes peace between arabworld & Isrealis; then we must persue it, who knows maybe in next 25 years we may help Palestine to achieve peace!

 

[Averroes]

Its unfortuate but again its not out war! Palestine authorities have been unable to stop rocket attacks from its territory into Israel; they are as much responsible for the current crisis as their counterpart.

It is war, or rather a genocide. What do you call indiscriminate killing of civilians? What do you call setting up an apartheid wall? What do you call the consistent land grab that Zionists keep doing yearly?

Hamas are in no way responsible, read history, check up on the facts. Israel's founding fathers were terrorists: they started with blowing up buses, consolates, and remember King david hotel. Ben gurion etc. all these guys were mass murderors, and the most disgusting one sharon who is dead or whatever.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

Israel-Palestine is no longer a religious but a political dispute. Palestinians enjoy religious freedom even within the boundries of Israel. If they chose to live seperately its their choice. We should and would help them when their freedom to worship the True God is compromised, which isn't the case here.

Enjoy religious freedom you say?

How do you explain the fact that Israel has demolished 1000 + Mosques?

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=7680

Israel is a "Jewish" state, yet nothing about it is Jewish. You are right that it is not religion, rather Zionist ideology versus Islam.

And you can note this by that several mass crimes committed by the Zionists against civilian unarmed Palestinians is done on a certain holiday called Purim. baruch goldstein massacred 29 muslims in a mosque on Purim in 94, the massacres by Sharon, and rachel corrie was bulldozered on Purim

Palestinians are second class citizens at best, the occupied territories are disgusting, caste like behaviour, something that perhaps unites the Zionists and Hindus.

"The Case Against Israel"
by Michael Neumann
"a state that has apartheid high court rulings, apartheid policies and apartheid laws is an apartheid state. No way around it."

Jews all around the world disengage from this heinous state, even Israelis. British academics recently started a boycott, followed by Canadian Union and South AFrican union which remembered the support Israelis gave to the racist apartheid regime both politically and in terms of arms. Gush Shalom, Israelis against House Demolition etc.

Jews who refuse to partake in this immoral zionist army:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/isr-summary-eng

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_he.asp
http://www.seruv.org.il/
http://www.mahsanmilim.com
http://www.cpt.org/hebron/hebron.php

It dosnt really matters if we recognise Isreal or not, the truth is that they exist & have total control of the land.

We recognize Israel's existence, but we do not recognize it's right to exist as it is a nucleus of all evil. How can you even consider diplomatic connections with a state that systematically kills children, that systematically destroys any hope of peace, commits the most violent of crimes in the most mind numbingly procedures? You know in the first intifadha, they broke 20,000 children's bones according to Swedish save the children?

I understand your view, which takes no heed to Israeli actions, rather a selfish move in acquiring military equipment offered by Israel, it is by no means a just move. We have morals I'm afraid, and there are other means of obtaining military technology.

Br. A. Rahman, I agree completely with your post on Secularism.

 

[A.Rahman]

I understand your view, which takes no heed to Israeli actions, rather a selfish move in acquiring military equipment offered by Israel, it is by no means a just move. We have morals I'm afraid, and there are other means of obtaining military technology

I go agree that Isreal is a terrorist regime, but what can arabs do to stop it? what can anyone do to stop it? do you have a plan?

Dont you think that Palestinian civlians are tired of this war? When ever they make anything it gets bombed. Dont you think they have a right to live in peace?

You can wish for destruction of Isreal all you want, but be realestic; can you nuke Isreal & expect no retaliation? , wouldnt it be better if we can use this diplomacy to make peace between Isrealis & Palestinians?

 

[Averroes]

Israel is something that has to worked against diplomatically brother.

They use force, we use diplomacy, I don't think any country regards it as humane except those under the threat of US sanctions. remember norway when they tried to instate nation wide boycott, condolezza paid them a visit and gave them a stern lecture.

One state solution, Palestine, with full right to return and the terrorist IDF dismantled.

Palestinians are the strongest people alive, despite the years of physical and psychological torture, they still continue. They have every right to peace, and we know that there's only been one obstacle in that, Israel.

I have no solution for israel, but allying it is not. Turkey claims it allied it to be able to help palestinians, but they just give Israel water, whilst Israelis block palestinians of water. No country that engages with israel helps the palestinians, rather feeds this war machine.

 

[Neo]

Nice post about secularism Rahman.
Generally I agree with your pov's.

 

[Neo]

Nice post about secularism Rahman.
Generally I agree with your pov's.

Averroes,

I'll try reply you later today.

 

[Spring Onion]

It is war, or rather a genocide. What do you call indiscriminate killing of civilians? What do you call setting up an apartheid wall? What do you call the consistent land grab that Zionists keep doing yearly?

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

Averroes, very detailed and good posts.

Retaliation and killings and target killings had been Isreal's policy from the very begining, now at the moment if u had noticd they needed an excuse to attack palistenians everytime and this time they had in shape of kidnapped isreali soldiers. The problem is Oil rich Arab Countries are just looking away dont u think so they have the power to affect this, why not they have huge investments in western nations and above all they have the most powerfull weapon of OIL for which now the super powers are attacking more countries wht u think can they be affected if the Arab world use this weapon.
Their energy needs are growing with each passing day and the technological development.

NO Arab country is opening comeing against Isreal so why Pakistan had to be made scapgoat
Even the our Muslim brothers the so called brothers (Palistenians and Arabs ) had u heard them supporting Pakistan on Kashmir issue. they all resort to mere rehtorics and sheepish comments.

We need to think to protect our country no one gonna come to our resue.

How can you even consider diplomatic connections with a state that systematically kills children, that systematically destroys any hope of peace, commits the most violent of crimes in the most mind numbingly procedures? You know in the first intifadha, they broke 20,000 children's bones according to Swedish save the children?

thats what allied forces in the name of so called war on terror are doing in Iraq, Afghanistan and may be in future some more countries so did we disconnect our deplomatic ties those countries.?


BTW Rahman, Munir why u were doubting my pic and hey Mel how do u know its me
i had changed it to fresh one