EXCLUSIVE PICS MKI LEAVING FOR FRANCE

[Bhairava]

great pictures, all are rocking

 

[Haanzo]

GUYS STOP BRINGING THE F-16 HERE

FLASH NEWS :yesterday 6 f-16s from singapore airforce landed in bangalore along with 2 stratotankers at 2:15 pm.....i did not know this until i got buzzed by them today morning at 9:15 am they were heading west and took a wide turn and started heading south ..... they must be the planes leaving for france ...they might have stopped over ......wish good luck to those pilots headingfor france HAVE A SAFE TRIP come back VICTORIOUS

LIVING IN BANGALORE ROCKS !!!

 

[Bhairava]

GUYS STOP BRINGING THE F-16 HERE

FLASH NEWS :yesterday 6 f-16s from singapore airforce landed in bangalore along with 2 stratotankers at 2:15 pm.....i did not know this until i got buzzed by them today morning at 9:15 am they were heading west and took a wide turn and started heading south ..... they must be the planes leaving for france ...they might have stopped over ......wish good luck to those pilots headingfor france HAVE A SAFE TRIP come back VICTORIOUS

LIVING IN BANGALORE ROCKS !!!

they come to escort our flankers

 

[Haanzo]

^^^^ buddy this attitude will get you into lot of trouble and ultimately banned dont behave like a teenager on a sugar rush !!!

 

[Kinetic]

I really like how nowadays the Indian armed forces have started wearing the Tricolour on their uniforms, it looks really good.
Alos does anyone know if these SU-30mkis would be newly inducted or part of the older fleet?

Yeah IAF and Indian forces changed a lot in last ten years coming out of old mind set. Its really good to see tri-colour in their arms, certainly encourages them to give their best. They also changed pilot's dress color from dark blue to this colour few years back.

 

[KEETARP]

This is my last post about exercise , wont post any more on this off-topic .

But it really needed some insight , how multinational exercise works .
I am sure more than handful of members would be looking forward seeing news like
su30 busts Rafale or Su30 destroys F16 ,
or Rafale and F16 destroy su30 .
This is exactly what dosen't happen in exercises . For the last time leave this fixation of Jets vs Jets in exercises

I wrote about DACT and continuously stressed on DACT , bcoz its about increasing interoperability among allied forces or similar minded forces nor X vs Y jet and who has bigger ****.

-Pilots and technicians learn how different countries operate under hostile conditions / alien environment .
-how they take up a particular mission , or use a particular Jet of same class for that mission .
-What methods they take to keep maintenance hours low / how many LRU checks is standard etc etc .
-For a typical SEAD mission , what is particular weapon config that adverser is carrying

Now you have jets of same weight and engine class
Su30 v F15
Su30 v F18
Su30 v Eurofighter ,

Its naturally u learn more , bcoz specs wise weapon load-out wise F15 and Su30 are much more similar than F16 . Seeing the mission profile of F15 and how their pilots+Engineers work will benefit our Technicians
how to modify maintenance of Su30 to have less woes .
how many spares other side carry and how many cross-reference , preflight check-ups of Jets have to be done .
Some of unnecessary check-ups can be reduced if you put and replace a particular LRU , or some non-checked items suddenly become important after exercise .
The presence and absence of IFF on F15 and Su30 was one such item in list .

Afterall if we are not learning whatever little about the other jet then why send them across oceans , might as well send pilots on training leactures to understand how other AF's operate.

Then you dont know how much Training is spent in briefing room and how much in air .

The advantages that you have shown is strawman and is more so considering that F16 is in the runing for MMRCA. If anything IAF wants to learn then it would be a maintenance , life cycle costs , spares , etc about F16 AND not ABOUT F15SE.

Ok , let me clear out thing first MRCA F16 is different , it has different
Radar - so MTBF will be different (moving vs electronic thing)
Handling , Avionics and Digital controlled engines offered are different . In short its a different aircraft more comparable to UAE than Singapore .
More so IAF evaluated this jet for MRCA throughly under three phases . Infact more than what exercise can ever offer . A specialized Team of officials checked handling and performance of air-craft in every conditions in India.
Wing Com Shankar Flew on back-seat of F16 and fired weapons himself in 3rd phase on testing .
This theory of MRCA is irrelevant in exercise .

What is Rafale for in that case ? It is similar to Su 30 in terms of Role.

Exactly , There lies the answer .

What will be more favourable in terms of learning ? DACT involving Su30 and F16 OR Su30 and F15 ? You never bothered to answer this despite me repeatedly asking you , leading me to believe that its a fanboy wish !!! If thats the case then say it , else give me the logic.

I explained that wrt to Mission objectives and Rules of Engagement and starting of this post , how Su30 vs F15 exercise is much better .

And Yes its a Fanboy claim .
Take it / interpret how well you like - , I am not going any-further on this topic .

 

[KEETARP]

Any answer for my query??

Sorry , Harry . Until Press gives us we cant have this piece of information . I would suggest u better email or post on Blog of Indian defence Journos , some of them are quite active and respond .
Ask Shiv , Prasoon , Ajay shukla , Vishnu Som . I have asked this same question on their blog .
Even for future when you cant find any specific answer ask them they are much better source than FanByoz like me .

 

[Kinetic]

Any answer for my query??

IAF has cooperative agreements with many friendly nations. They get short breaks or some times few hours. I remember IAF Jaguras during their way to Alaska stopped in many countries and crossed the Atlantic with the help aerial refuelers which was the first time our fighters land on foreign soil during peacetime that also thousands of km away. They stopped in Qatar, Egypt, Italy, Portugal, Lajes (the mid-Atlantic island belonging to Portugal), Canada and finally the Eielson Air Force Base at Alaska.

 

[anathema]

I am sure more than handful of members would be looking forward seeing news like
su30 busts Rafale or Su30 destroys F16 ,
or Rafale and F16 destroy su30 .
This is exactly what dosen't happen in exercises . For the last time leave this fixation of Jets vs Jets in exercises

Prateek, I dont mean no disrespect but nobody is looking forward for these kinds of news. If these kinds of news does come through as was the case with cope india then most of them take with these news with a grain of salt..but the point is whether you want to accept it or not jets vs jets does happen and people (pilots) do talk !!

I wrote about DACT and continuously stressed on DACT , bcoz its about increasing interoperability among allied forces or similar minded forces nor X vs Y jet and who has bigger ****.

-Pilots and technicians learn how different countries operate under hostile conditions / alien environment .
-how they take up a particular mission , or use a particular Jet of same class for that mission .

If you are saying that Aircrafts with same roles/mission profile is beneficial then i agree BUT sorry to say it is as lame as it gets if you trying to use that to support your view of why F15SE should be used.
It is a DACT(Dissimilar..) , so similar aircrafts with same mission profile just doesnt cut it. The whole goal of the DACT excercises in your words is interoperability between AF's , understanding operational procedures of others AF's , friendship and understanding the jets involved. And that is precisely why you have a mirage which is a multirole lightweight fighter , SU 30 - Air dominance , Rafale - Air dominance and F16 - Multirole lightweight fighter involved. This is not about studying the Aircrafts of same class or same tonnage!!

I will quote a DACT excercise that happened between USAF F16 and MIG29 of LUFTWAFFE. Read the below para and it will enlighten you.
"
While in recent exercises between USAF F-16 and German MiG-29A's showed that in ACM the greatest advantage the MiG-29 had was it's helmet mounted sight coupled with the AA-11 Archer which gives it a kill zone greater than any aircraft serving. F-16 pilots found that any aircraft within 45deg's of the nose of a MiG-29 was always under grave threat. The ability to target aircraft well of boresight has proved to be such a success that helmet mounted sights have become requirements on any new fighter program - Luftwaffe MiG-29s and USAF F-16s have engaged in intense DACT exercises"

There was a whole article about these DACT excercises long long time back, unfortunately almost all the pages are now non existent or expired, all you find are these quotes..I will try to post the link if i can. However the point is , it is these sort of revelations do come out of these excercises. Common knowledge says that it will not be made public , however the learnings amongst pilots are definetly there. And who knows we may end up learning a chink in F16 Armor during these excercises !!

Now you have jets of same weight and engine class
Su30 v F15
Su30 v F18
Su30 v Eurofighter ,

Its naturally u learn more , bcoz specs wise weapon load-out wise F15 and Su30 are much more similar than F16 . Seeing the mission profile of F15 and how their pilots+Engineers work will benefit our Technicians
how to modify maintenance of Su30 to have less woes .
how many spares other side carry and how many cross-reference , preflight check-ups of Jets have to be done .
Some of unnecessary check-ups can be reduced if you put and replace a particular LRU , or some non-checked items suddenly become important after exercise .

What you have said above may be true - Although in your own words i dont know how much of these are shared. However if differetn Aircrafts of similar profile and class are involved then its a bonus and not a neccisity. This is precisely the point. If you want F15SE to be present just because technicians can learn out of it then sorry it just doesnt cut it, technicians may as well learn it from Rafale (which is present in excercise). Common knowledge says that it is always better to do excercises against a aircraft who will potentially say Hi in a future combat. - That is my point.

Then you dont know how much Training is spent in briefing room and how much in air .

Never claimed i did.

Ok , let me clear out thing first MRCA F16 is different , it has different
Radar - so MTBF will be different (moving vs electronic thing)
Handling , Avionics and Digital controlled engines offered are different . In short its a different aircraft more

Aircraft is different.. however this doesnt mean there is a world of difference between two subsequent blocks, even if there is so what !!!. My friend If you ask a mechanic how a Maruti Zen Estillo is , then he might say "Saab , i dont know i havent worked on it but Maruti Zen is very reliable" , then you might say to yourself "Okay thats good news, so what is good about Maruti Zen"...See the point... ? Similarly when technicians talk amongst themselves (read F16), they might say some points which are good about the aircraft OR some worse things about Aircraft....This in turn will benefit our Evaluators before signing up the final contract...If we had known about the root wing cracks on Mig 29 before then maybe we would have taken precaution , if we had known about the button which switches of the F/B on su 30 MKI then we might have asked Russians to wire it off - This resulted in one of the crashes AND Loss of ONE LIFE!!

More so IAF evaluated this jet for MRCA throughly under three phases . Infact more than what exercise can ever offer . A specialized Team of officials checked handling and performance of air-craft in every conditions in India.
Wing Com Shankar Flew on back-seat of F16 and fired weapons himself in 3rd phase on testing .
This theory of MRCA is irrelevant in exercise .

I never have and never will doubt professional expertice of IAF however tell me one thing, can 6 months of flight evaluation equate to years of operating experience. Ask wing Co Shankar about F16, his thoughts and then ask a Wing Co from PAF Mr Tariq Zia about his thoughts on F16 , you will get a enriching answer and much better than Wing Co Shankar. You know why ?? Because of more than 3000 hours on F16 !!! Thats why !!! And your equating 6 months of IAF evalution with Singapore AF who has more than 2 decades on F16 !! Speakes Volumes doesnt it !!

Exactly , There lies the answer .

What answer ?? There is Rafale which has a similar mission profile and falls under same class. Then why do we need F15SE which doesnt offer us any/negligent learning curve when we compare our equipment. If its present then its great but at the cost of F16, then its foolishness !!

I explained that wrt to Mission objectives and Rules of Engagement and starting of this post , how Su30 vs F15 exercise is much better .

The point is you tried to by involving DACT but i am afraid it just doesnt cut it. I have quoted DACT excercises on how AF's learn minor but important things about other Aircrafts , how they analyse the strengths and weakness of other aircrafts , etc. After all French tried to do a ECM snoop using Spectra during last red flag !!!Didnt they !!! I time and again requested the explicit reasons as to why this is beneficial , all i got was technicians and how other aircraft is maintained AND YET the reasons what i am offering you goes much more beyond that. You simply are choosing to live in your own pre conceived notion that DACT excercises are just about AF's interacting with eact other (which is True !!! ) But it also and will involve understaing and observing the Aircrafts which are flying the mission, understanding the pilots and communication amongst pilots.

My final try to bring home the point ---> Watch Col Fornof critizing Su 30 MKI after one of the DACT missions. It might be a load of Crap or it may be true , but the point is these things do get discussed. Additionally take the press briefings that came out of Cope India about Mig21 bison being heavy on F15 , how did this come about ? Pilots talked, thats how !!!! Now imagine a similar internal lecture from IAF Wing Co Mishra to the entire Su 30 team on F16 after the excercises !!! There will be de brief but it may not be made public.

And Yes its a Fanboy claim .
Take it / interpret how well you like - , I am not going any-further on this topic .

It may better well be a Fanboy claim for the reasons that you have given make it look like one. Peace !!!!

 

[KEETARP]

Ok agreed , let us leave aside my lame and foolish explanation .

You tell us ,what is your point we are going to learn from this F16 in air against Su30 .

 

[anathema]

Ok agreed , let us leave aside my lame and foolish explanation .

You tell us ,what is your point we are going to learn from this F16 in air against Su30 .

All of the above, i have explained some of them above .... We all know what Americans learned of Mig 29 during their Dact excercises - they used to avoid the 45 deg cone of Mig 29 due to HMS.

In addition --- Some of the points in my humble opinion that i can think of (I am no expert . so these may vary - You may get these from a professional),
Performance of Aircraft in Air vis vi Su 30,
WVR combat - Advantages of F16 Vis Vi Su 30.
BVR situations - If DACT covers it.
What situations Su 30 should avoid getting into with respect F16 ,
We all know the Cobra maneur is for spectators as it bleeds energy , then what manveur's should be performed to shake the tail - If IAF knows then validate this , perfect the Art,
Sorty rates of F16,
How long does F16 stay in battle vis vi Su 30,
Rate of turns , agility, climb , etc.
At what distance will Radar spot F16 and vice versa ..We all know full operating power of Radar is hidden, however in training frequency what is the detection range. This will give us enough calculations.
Formulate strategy to counter F16 based on above opinions,
Pilots getting a chance and feel of how F16 performs in front of their eyes.
Maintenance aspect of F16,
Technologies present in F16 which can/cannot incorporate in Su 30.

The possibilities are endless and the horizons infinite..if we could excercise with these aircrafts everyday we would learn a new thing from them everyday , either on the ground or up in the Air. Better to know and learn you adversary than be ignorant is my opinion.

Peace !!

 

[KEETARP]

Thanks for that post ..

At what distance will Radar spot F16 and vice versa ..We all know full operating power of Radar is hidden, however in training frequency what is the detection range. This will give us enough calculations

How will that be done , when you don't know at what Freq and Power ur enemy is flying . What its peak power will be when used in fully operational mode.

Rate of turns , agility, climb , etc.

Your Rules of engagement are very specific , either u stick or u are out . ROA limit AOA ans turn rates . Even MKI didn't use TVC in Red-Flag they only used it in Mountain home Base before Red-Flag . Agility and turn-rate data will never be conclusive of jet .

Maintenance aspect of F16,
Technologies present in F16 which can/cannot incorporate in Su 30.

Which maintenance profile will be closer to MKI , a F15 or F16
Which Jet has better Tech F15SG or F16bl52

BVR situations - If DACT covers it

Your altitude and Range of engagement is under ROE , guess why in Cope-thunder USAF wasn't allowed AIM120 range simulation . And range of a particular missile varies wrt to Kinematic performance of Launching platform .

Formulate strategy to counter F16 based on above opinions

Strategy with restricted performance and cap on true potential of Radar,missile,Jammers .
And every Air-Force has different role and strategy of that air-craft .
Role and limit that RSAF has for F16 will never match what F16 is for PAF , might be possible RSAF uses it for Point-defence or interceptor while PAF will use it as Air-superiority platform or an escort to their Bombers .

 

[anathema]

How will that be done , when you don't know at what Freq and Power ur enemy is flying . What its peak power will be when used in fully operational mode.

Very True ...And the answer is i dont know the specifics. Maybe IAF does know the peak power/frequency (guestimates) based on the MRCA evaluation . If they do know then this would be a good ground to validate their understandings based on the estimates. This will tell them atleast if they are in the right direction or totally wrong? But even if its not known , how will it affect us ? We are looking for some F16 tid bits , if its not there its not there !!But the truth is , i dont know the answer. All you asked were suggestions and i gave some ...

Your Rules of engagement are very specific , either u stick or u are out . ROA limit AOA ans turn rates . Even MKI didn't use TVC in Red-Flag they only used it in Mountain home Base before Red-Flag . Agility and turn-rate data will never be conclusive of jet .

Do you know the set parameters of engagement ? Do you know the ROA limit or AOA limitation ? If you are newcomer to a DACT excercise then these parameters are set very tight to avoid mishaps , but if the forces have been excersing together for quite some time (as is the case between France , SIngapore and India) then the range of limitations is also quite broad. You may find (if this becomes declassified) that the rules of engagement for DACT between NATO countries is very lax as compared to when India went for Red flag. But what is noted is tidbits such as Mig 21 Bison performance against F15 , F16 performances against Mig 29 , etc.

Agility and turn rate data is never conclusive till you actually face an enemy jet in combat but the truth of the matter is You learn everytime your up against the same aircraft. Maybe the last time India excercised with RSAF F16 might have done a turn at 17s (completing a full turn) but during these excercises they might discover that F16 can be much faster than that. These all are compiled into learnings just as MECHANICS learn about the aircrafts of the same mission class.

Which maintenance profile will be closer to MKI , a F15 or F16
Which Jet has better Tech F15SG or F16bl52

How is this relevant ? For all i know F15SE may be better than Su 30 but who will we face in battle ? When i said technologies - I meant minor ones such as Maybe HUD's , displays etc ..Maybe jamming technologies or Simple ease of use Or maybe there is none , Su 30 might be superior in all respects to F16. But i wouldnt want to believe that at my nations peril.

When i said Maintenance i was purely talking with respect to MRCA. My earlier post covers it. If there are any maintenance glitches then IAF would be please to know about it in advance.

Your altitude and Range of engagement is under ROE , guess why in Cope-thunder USAF wasn't allowed AIM120 range simulation . And range of a particular missile varies wrt to Kinematic performance of Launching platform .

True AIM 120 was not allowed in Cope thunder. But the beauty of the fact is we knew that AIM 120 is not allowed , so there is always a possibility that a F16 can take down SU 30 purely due to an advanced missile , all the more reason to study the aircraft and dynamics. In my post i specifically mentioned about Su 30 avoiding one of the situations where F16 is best. This may well be one. For all i know if AIM 120 is with RSAF (i am not sure) then these DACT may simulate it , but these are situations which we will never ever know.

Range of a particular missile vairies according to kinematic performance and altitude , however we will never know that till a missile is actually fired.

Strategy with restricted performance and cap on true potential of Radar,missile,Jammers .
And every Air-Force has different role and strategy of that air-craft .
Role and limit that RSAF has for F16 will never match what F16 is for PAF , might be possible RSAF uses it for Point-defence or interceptor while PAF will use it as Air-superiority platform or an escort to their Bombers .

Agree , but how does that affect us? The important thing is what role will RSAF F16 Blck 52 play in DACT ? Will they be used as point defenders or aggressors , either ways being a multi role aircraft PAF can use the plane in any role on necessary situations. IF the RAF F 16 specialises in Defender roles then we can train to beat those defences (put points) else if they specially in aggresors then we can practise defence against F16 and so on ...each has different lessons and infinite possibilities to learn and understand the adversary.

Also keep in mind that its not F16 vs Su 30 (which this DACT does), its F16 vs IAF ...as the training and lessons will be precolated amongst all units to make sure that they do know the basics when they are up against one of the best aircraft in Human history.

 

[KEETARP]

Maybe IAF does know the peak power/frequency (guestimates) based on the MRCA evaluation . If they do know then this would be a good ground to validate their understandings based on the estimates

No , its not . MRCA evaluation dosen't provide you operating Freq and Peak power ratings . Its a classified data until you own the jet . USAF and L.M are not that un-professional to let slip these details .
Secondly APG-80 carries an different antennae with diff Freq diff power and duty cycle of operation . While APG-68 is a different antennae altogether . This logic dosent't hold any ground .

I am still not clear "How can you get the Freq and Power of APG-68 when both radars are in training mode" if at all ROE allow sniffing by your passive sensors .

Agility and turn rate data is never conclusive till you actually face an enemy jet in combat but the truth of the matter is You learn everytime your up against the same aircraft. Maybe the last time India excercised with RSAF F16 might have done a turn at 17s (completing a full turn) but during these excercises they might discover that F16 can be much faster than that

If AoA ,turn rates, hard-deck , altitude , Mach limit are not conclusive , how can you rely on them to formulate a strategy .

These all are compiled into learnings

What learnings actually , if you can elaborate further .

When i said Maintenance i was purely talking with respect to MRCA. My earlier post covers it. If there are any maintenance glitches then IAF would be please to know about it in advance.

It dosen't matter , we are doing exercise for learning and experience of our Pilots not for testing a particular MRCA jet

however we will never know that till a missile is actually fired, all the more reason to study the aircraft and dynamics

True , you dont know the missile profile , Flight performance what you are seeing may be just opposite bcoz of ROE . What does that signify
Simply you don't get data to know pros and cons of F16 .

Also keep in mind that its not F16 vs Su 30 (which this DACT does), its F16 vs IAF ...as the training and lessons will be precolated amongst all units to make sure that they do know the basics when they are up against one of the best aircraft in Human history.

Agree to that fully , F16 is the best aircraft in Human history no doubt about that .

More important in aerial-combat is you always win by making enemy to fight acc to your rules and acc to ur strengths .
A f16 pilot instead of looking chinks in Su30 will always fight in envelope or will force su30 where he is confident to beat each time he comes up against Su30,x,x,x,x even if it turns out strongest point of Su30 as well .

 

[anathema]

No , its not . MRCA evaluation dosen't provide you operating Freq and Peak power ratings . Its a classified data until you own the jet . USAF and L.M are not that un-professional to let slip these details .
Secondly APG-80 carries an different antennae with diff Freq diff power and duty cycle of operation . While APG-68 is a different antennae altogether . This logic dosent't hold any ground .

I am still not clear "How can you get the Freq and Power of APG-68 when both radars are in training mode" if at all ROE allow sniffing by your passive sensors .

True if you say so ... Maybe IAF will not have the frequencies , but thats besides the point.

I am not sure how it is achived OR how we derive the freq and peak power when in training mode , but i do know that excercises such as these are breeding ground of people/AF's trying to snoop these kind of information. I am afraid i am not knowledgeable in these area, however Gambit maybe able to help if at all there is a way.

If AoA ,turn rates, hard-deck , altitude , Mach limit are not conclusive , how can you rely on them to formulate a strategy .

I never said to rely on one such excercise to formulate the strategy. What i said was this kinds of study/experience forms a part of reiterative process wherein your ideas/strategies are refined/rectified based on your experience/understanding you gather in multi national excercise. If you take above example of sustained turn rate of 17S and in this excercise a jockey pulls up a 16s turn then we know its time to revise our parameters and roll up the sleeves to see what was missed. Learning will and has to be a gradual process, there is no out of the box strategy or formulae , and every bit of information helps us.

What learnings actually , if you can elaborate further .

I am afraid Prateek you are asking me a question for which neither I nor you might have an answer. But again refer to learning from DACT excercise between Mig29 and F16 , Col Fornof videos ....all those are learnings and not just proclaimation of mines bigger. I surely hope that IAF has compiled their learnings in a similar ways , unfortunately we may never have access to those till we are one of them.

It dosen't matter , we are doing exercise for learning and experience of our Pilots not for testing a particular MRCA jet

TRUE....that was my whole point. Learning and experience for our pilots against F16. Details about MRCA is a secondary ..if we get them its good , if not then we will see later. After all you are not going to turn a blind ear if one of the technician says that F16 doesnt fare that well in cold climates of ALASKA (i made this up ....) !!!

True , you dont know the missile profile , Flight performance what you are seeing may be just opposite bcoz of ROE . What does that signify
Simply you don't get data to know pros and cons of F16 .

It is debateble on the grounds of what is ROE. Neither you know nor do i. However i have read that ROE is lax amongst interoperable forces to simulate real life conditions. But thats besides the point ----- After the excercise IAF will not be looking to come up with black book listing out all the pro's and cons of F16 ....However what IAF will be interested to come up will be maybe a point or two against F16 ...It maybe a CON, it may be PRO...But it might be definetly that pilots should think about.

Agree to that fully , F16 is the best aircraft in Human history no doubt about that .

More important in aerial-combat is you always win by making enemy to fight acc to your rules and acc to ur strengths .
A f16 pilot instead of looking chinks in Su30 will always fight in envelope or will force su30 where he is confident to beat each time he comes up against Su30,x,x,x,x even if it turns out strongest point of Su30 as well .

True and i have never debated that. However how will F16 pilot know that the best flight envelope for an F16 might be worst against Su 30 MKI simply put because of certain characteristics of Su 30. ...it would be virtual suicide if pilots opt for it...So which manveur to choose , which flight envelope to go for -- The odds will be much better once you know the aircraft you are up against. History is abdundant with examples - How North Vietnamese used Mig 21 to their effectiveness , How Indians used Gnat , How Sabres were used .....all these are suicidal without understanding whom you are flying against , especially if its a proven platform. - This is i feel is one of the main purposes of DACT , combat training before a war ...so that one knows what to expect.