Featured Ex PN Chief Zafar Mehmood Abbasi highlighted PN modernization

[Yasser76]

ASAK
I was once told by someone that the basic structure of ships of one origin are different from other origin ships. The change over can require half a-decade to get used to for staff. Hence countries go on and stick to one or two suppliers for their needs. I suspect the same holds true for PN Subs which have previously been French but now Chinese. So there is sense in the Yuan for training and acclimatization for staff. Later on it could be upgraded to comply with our requirements or just kept for basic sub training.
Either case we are looking at an unprecedented boom in PN acquisition and may Allah azza-wa Jal make these plans come true. We need this to guard our supply lines and most importantly our off shore oil drilling facilities before we establish those.

Yeah, with 11 AIP equipped subs soon, the Arabian sea will be a very very busy place, not even taking into account how many attack subs the Chinese will be having there once we operationalise a sub base for them...

 

[sparten]

Some limited expeditionary capability is planned for the new upgraded Marine Corps, of course depending on finances.

This seems to be a complete change of posture. So we expect to have to fight in the Gulf area?

Range is classified, also our public missile range is in the ballpark and keeps the enemy guessing.

WIth BM's if the enemy can track RV speed and trajectory they can work out range.

 

[Rafi]

This seems to be a complete change of posture. So we expect to have to fight in the Gulf area?

WIth BM's if the enemy can track RV speed and trajectory they can work out range.

No, but we will have the capacity to move troops in near locations, no interest in getting involved in the gulfies shit.

Ah but you don't test full range, also there are other tricks I cant say...nuff said.

Yeah, with 11 AIP equipped subs soon, the Arabian sea will be a very very busy place, not even taking into account how many attack subs the Chinese will be having there once we operationalise a sub base for them...

We would have one of the largest AIP equipped submarine force in the world.

 

[sparten]

hmmm...tbh ship-based ASBMs aren't common at all. However, it would imply the development of a deep VLS system to accommodate it. IMHO this would necessitate a large ship.

This would necessitate a cruiser class ship.

 

[mzain]

In the world of drone wars, these ships would be sitting ducks without proper air defense...

Totally agree with you. PN should focus in this area as we are lacking in so many ways. Apart from drones IN have multiple carriers.

 

[Armchair]

Totally agree with you. PN should focus in this area as we are lacking in so many ways. Apart from drones IN have multiple carriers.

Thanks. Maybe PN knows this. I've been discussing UUV, SOSUS, corvettes over frigates, need for larger fleet. In every one of these cases PN has come through. It is almost as if PN reads PDF

PN, if you are listening, strike and air defense UCAVs and manned combat aircraft with legs next please. And local PDMS and medium air defense, and Turkish / local sonars please. And if you really don't mind -
Pak Corvette program - 1000 tons, 6x harbah, sonar, 6x Sams, unified aesa radar, VTOL UAV, ciws / pdms at A position.

Last but not the least - low cost drone swarm with AI.

Thank you, may Allah bless all of you. you are officially my favorite military arm.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This seems to be a complete change of posture. So we expect to have to fight in the Gulf area?

I think the PN expects coastal infrastructure to grow, especially in Baluchistan. We'll have more assets to defend, hence the need to grow the Marines.

One other aspect could be to boost our ability to support multinational or coalition operations, e.g., have more deployable/expeditionary troops. I wonder if we'll see landing platform docks (LPDs) down the line...

 

[Yasser76]

I think the PN expects coastal infrastructure to grow, especially in Baluchistan. We'll have more assets to defend, hence the need to grow the Marines.

One other aspect could be to boost our ability to support multinational or coalition operations, e.g., have more deployable/expeditionary troops. I wonder if we'll see landing platform docks (LPDs) down the line...

Yes, I think it is looking more and more as if PN is being redesigned to a large extent to fit into a mainly Chinese led or even possibly Turkish led naval coalition if that case ever came. We hold very frequent exercises with the Turks and it seems equipment like ATR/P-3C, Agosta 90B and MILGEMs all have Turkish equipment or can at least fit in seamlessly with Turkish forces. Obviously same applies to 054/Hangor and Chinese Navy....

 

[peagle]

You have misunderstood my response and gone on a tirade of litany which is irrelevant. Let Pakistan and its efforts be seen in a realistic light. There are a lot of critical technologies and industries which we lack. Considering our difciencies we have really done well. But one must be factual in one's assessments which you were not and hence my response. What you think of me is of no concern to me. Iam not out here to impress anyone. I express an opinion as other people do on open fora in response to other people's post. If you want to respond please do so but with facts

araz you need to get off your high horse and provide sensible replies, it is arrogant to assume anything that comes out of your mouth is the gospel truth.
You had very clearly misunderstood my statement, and carried on to give me a self appointment moral police lecture, you were wrong, and I told you so. Please don't give me excuses, point out what I had said was incorrect then I can give you a valid reply, take a chill pill and have a proper discussion.

Now please point out exactly what in my statement was not factual, only then, I can give you an appropriate reply. All I am getting from you is your accusations based on an assumption you took from my statement. That is just silly.

In-case it is too much of an effort to go back to read my original statement, that has got you in a twist, below is my statement quoted exactly as I had written it, now tell me exactly what is in there that is not factually correct, if you cannot, then have the decency to admit you made a mistake.

"""I suppose they've had a head start, considering their advantages, they been extremely poor at delivering. Even now the vessels being built in India have foreign origins, which I think is very poor.
100% it looks like we have starting on a journey of domestic autonomy and independent development.

The navy chief mentioned the gas reserves in his speech. It has been missed in all the excitement. We always hear about reserves in Pakistan but rarely in such manner from a naval chief.
Listen from about 12:45"""

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

The category and numbers of surface vessels that PN sends against IN and into IN waters will be a factor that IN strategists and analysists will be looking at. They know that PN lacks a strong air wing and IN will use it to its advantage to limit PN LRMPAs from advancing into skies controlled by IN. Therefore the threat factor from air diminishes for IN while it grows profoundly for PN. The Destroyers or Frigates that PN sends to make contact with IN will be attacked from IN air arm long before they come face to face with IN's vessels. So its not just the numbers which will withhold IN's advantage. The advent of PN acquiring 8 new subs has made IN buy P-8 and MH-60 while progressing otherwise in anti submarine domain too. India somehow has to break Pakistan's second strike capability to hold an edge in the outcome of war.

So in short, there is a critical requirement for air wing for PN. A double engine fighter plane squad, which can escort our LRMPAs at greater ranges and provide an aircover for our surface vessels and at the same time can target Indian LRMPAs/P8i etc. We atleast need a twin engine squad asap to neutralize whatever threat you mentioned above. When I said asap, then by 2025 or before since in next couple of years, we will start receiving our Milgems and type54s one by one.

 

[Yasser76]

So in short, there is a critical requirement for air wing for PN. A double engine fighter plane squad, which can escort our LRMPAs at greater ranges and provide an aircover for our surface vessels and at the same time can target Indian LRMPAs/P8i etc. We atleast need a twin engine squad by asap to neutralize whatever threat you mentioned above. When I said asap, then by 2025 or before since in next couple of years, we will start receiving our Milgems and type54s one by one.

I think there is a requirment for that capability but certainly it can be done by PAF, no need to create a land based PN fighter unit for just a few planes. In terms of equipment I think AZM will be a twin engined design and be surprised if it does not have some maritime capability built in

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

I think there is a requirment for that capability but certainly it can be done by PAF, no need to create a land based PN fighter unit for just a few planes. In terms of equipment I think AZM will be a twin engined design and be surprised if it does not have some maritime capability built in

Doesn't matter if it will be directly under PN or PAF but nevertheless there is an urgent requirement for a twin engine fighter plane squad for Navy. AZM's end product, I am afraid won't be available before 2030-2035. Solution again can come from China in the form of J15/J16. Again for this, we don't need to go for 3-4 squads. Just a squad or two (max) will be enough. For this, I don't mind if we can delay some of our vessels procurement or cut down some of the numbers mentioned by CNS in his farewell speech. Financing of twin engine squad is a must now.

 

[FuturePAF]

hmm...my $0.02

1. The ex-CNS said the vision is for 20+ large surface combatants.

I think he's referring to ships of 2,000+ tonnage, so that would include 4 F-22P, 4 MILGEM, 4 Type 054A/P, and 2 OPV 1800s. That is already 14 ships. He said the PN is going to contract another 6 ships of 'larger tonnage' down the line.

2. The Jinnah-Class Frigate is a standalone project.

The J-Class is not tied to the first 4 MILGEMs, but a separate program that is still in the design phase. However, since it is a frigate, it would be part of the 20-ship vision.

It's quite possible that the PN is basically planning to acquire 6-7 J-Class Frigates, and the J-Class will be a 'larger tonnage' design. Basically, it could end up being a 5,000-6,000-ton frigate like the FREMM.

Of course, since the PN likes blowing expectations out of water, I'm probably wrong.

He did say a 50 ship navy, with 20 major ships. 20/50 are expected to be FACs, so the rest of the 30 would include the corvettes, leaving room for those 6 larger tonnage vessels to possibly be full size destroyers.

considering how advanced the Type 052DL have already gotten, and the economies of scale, and the timeline, and the Chinese weapons those VLS can fit, the Type 052DL with some upgrades (integrated mast from the Type 55, room for two helos; 1 AEW, and 1 ASW, and heavyweight torpedos) would be the perfect fit. They would really go a long way in creating a bastion for Pakistan to operate 3 Qing class armed with 3 SLBM Each Like the Pukguksong-4 unveiled in last week’s parade (2000-2500km range), especially if it carry’s MIRVs with penetration aids, it would maintain credible deterrence with its constant 24 hour alert. Similar to the Polaris Chevaline with its two to three warheads (especially if high yield warheads) and many penetration aids.

Chevaline - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

BTW, Pakistan should study how the US marines are evolving. They are changing their force structure and reforming their basic independent units into “Marine Littoral Battalions”. very informative discussions on the subject. EW and secure Comms; disrupting the enemy network and keeping one’s own secure was very high up on the priority list.

 

[Microsoft]

Doesn't matter if it will be directly under PN or PAF but nevertheless there is an urgent requirement for a twin engine fighter plane squad for Navy. AZM's end product, I am afraid won't be available before 2030-2035. Solution again can come from China in the form of J15/J16. Again for this, we don't need to go for 3-4 squads. Just a squad or two (max) will be enough. For this, I don't mind if we can delay some of our vessels procurement or cut down some of the numbers mentioned by CNS in his farewell speech. Financing of twin engine squad is a must now.

I think it is clear the navy is putting economic needs in their considerations. These will do just fine for protection of shipping lanes and securing any projects in EEZ. Something important is coming from EEZ for sure CNS said Pak would have larger gas reserves than KSA, hopefully big portion of it is drillable.

 

[sparten]

I think the PN expects coastal infrastructure to grow, especially in Baluchistan. We'll have more assets to defend, hence the need to grow the Marines.

One other aspect could be to boost our ability to support multinational or coalition operations, e.g., have more deployable/expeditionary troops. I wonder if we'll see landing platform docks (LPDs) down the line...

But why do we need Marines for that? When Army units would do just as well and be cheaper.
I think Pakistans seems expeditionary warfare in our future.