Jinnah class guided missile frigate has entered detailed design phase, after completion of conceptual design phase

[Tipu7]

Is this good news or bad news?

Depends how new systems will perform ...

To dispel any assumptions, I would cite an ex-CNS statement that said the heavier tonnage class project of six ships would begin from 2025. If we accept your explanation, then why are there so many plans and purchases of various systems for just a few?

A lot has changed ever since the farewell speech of ex-CNS.
Remember the condition of country's economy. We are facing severe budgetary problems.
All services.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Depends how new systems will perform ...

Can you disclose what those would be? or a hint

 

[Horse_Rider]

Don't know about 70% but a significant number are being taken out which must ring alarm bells for our subsonic heavy deterrence.

57 out of 80 is 71%. That's only mentioning ONE large attack a few weeks ago!

 

[Dr-who]

We need to get over this obsession with Jinnah, we have other leaders we can name our vessels after too. Benizir Class, Nawaz class, Bhutto class.

We should procure an aircraft carrier and name it PNS Tando Masti Khan

 

[MultaniGuy]

Pakistan's Jinnah-class frigate under ASFAT leadership in detail design​

Author: Ahmet Alemdar

06 Feb 2022 09:31

Category: Navy and Naval Systems, News
A A


FacebookTwitterLinkedinWhatsappTelegramQR Code


Jinnah Class Frigate design process has been started to the detail design stage
The Pakistani Navy's design activities for the future frigate class Jinnah are underway. Under the leadership of ASFAT, the main contractor of PN MILGEM, design activities continue in Pakistan. The design activities in question are within the scope of the Offseti of the PN MILGEM project, the statement said. "The Jinnah Class Frigate (JCF) design, the Offset project of the PN MILGEM (Pakistan Milgem) project, continues with the Pakistan Navy Design Office – PDW (Pakistan Design Wing) under the leadership of ASFAT," the statement said. I was told. In addition, it was stated that the detail design process was started, "Offset project; the concept has completed the design phase and the detail is in the design stage." I was told.

Pakistan isterilerine göre özelleştirilerek Türk tersanelerinden 4 adet inşası talep edilen PN Milgem gemilerinin hepsinin inşa süreçleri devam ediyor. ASFAT Deniz Platformları Teknik Müdürü PN Milgem projesinin gemileri hakkında son gelişmelerden aktardı. Birinci PN Milgem gemisi olan PNS BABUR 11 Ocak 2022’de İstanbul Tersanesi Komutanlığı’nda havuza girdi, planlı ve uzun bir havuz süreci sonrası liman testlerine başlayacak. Üçüncü PN Milgem gemisi olan PNS BADR’ın inşası ise tüm hızıyla Karaçi’de devam ediyor. 2022’nin ilk yarısında geminin Karaçi’de denize iniş için çalışmalar devam ediyor. İkinci ve dördüncü PN Milgem gemileri PNS KHAIBAR ve PNS TARIQ’ın da inşası devam ediyor.

PN Babur

PN MILGEM Project:​

The Milgem project, designed and developed with domestic and national facilities for the Turkish navy, paid off and ordered these ships for its own navy in Pakistan. In the Milgems ordered by Pakistan, changes were made to the ship design according to the requirements of the Pakistani navy and the PN Milgem project was created.
PN Milgemler also has 2 6-cell surface-to-air guided shell systems, It was announced that systems such as 2 3-launch guided shell systems, 76 mm Main Battery Gun, Torpedo Launch System, Close Air Defense System, 2 25 mm Remote Controlled Stabilized Gun System (STOP), Carinaya Mounted Sonar, Torpedo Mixing / Deception System (TKAS) will be installed.
Ships to be produced within the scope of PN MILGEM project:

• PNS Mughal
• PNS Khaibar
• PNS Badr
• PNS Tariq

will.

Relatedly

Ahmet Alemdar
Defence Turk Broadcast Coordinator. In the case of Turkish Defense Industry; defense technologies, strategies and policy researcher and follower.

Tags: ASFATJCFJinnah Class FrigateMilgemPakistanpakistani milgemiPN MILGEM

ASFAT liderliğinde Pakistan'ın Jinnah sınıfı fırkateyni detay dizayn aşamasında

Pakistan Donanmasının gelecekteki fırkateyn sınıfı Jinnah için dizayn faaliyetleri devam ediyor.

www.defenceturk.net

https://twitter.com/x/status/1490218509472702467

Mash'Allah, may Pakistan prosper.

 

[HRK]

A pair of Jinnah class frigates is planned by 2030.
The total numbers are not finalized yet.
And there won't be Harba on Milgems and Jinnahs.

P-282 ??

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

In addition, KWES completed Badar (281) in less than 2 years after it was laid down in OCT'20 and launched in May'22.

You are confusing launching with delivery. Launch is only 30-40% stage of whole construction process. Its empty shell, all the electronics, engine propulsion, sensors, weapons, integrations and testings everything comes after the launch.

So Badar will take another 3 years before it can be inducted into PN. Also note, there are more reasons for Badar to be completed in time then future Jinnah as Turkey is main contractor and PN is just a customer paying 1.5 billion USD for the project. Turkey has way more experience in shipbuilding then us and they are behind the project all the way. All components, design, everything is driven by them. So When PN will start Jinnah on its own, you can't expect an expedited timelines. No way.

I will just give you example of PN's capability to build ship on its own. PNS Haibat (last of Azmat class FAC) is thought to be built entirely at home. Note its only 670 ton ship.
PNS Haibat (670 ton ship)

Construction started: January 2017
Launched: 27 November 2019.
Commissioned: 31 March 2022

Total Time span on a 600 ton ship: More than 5 years

So assuming Jinnah construction to commence from 2026 ( last Baburs will be delivered by end of 2025 or early 2026.) There's no way PN can commission Jinnah frigate before 2030.

Just to compare Pakistan's ship building infrastructure, We have 1 shipyard. Turkey has more than 100. China more than 1000. Even india takes 5-6 years minimum on frigate construction. (They have vastly more experience / infrastructure then us). So expecting expedited dates / quick timelines on Jinnah frigate program is NOT realistic.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

ALL PN ship purchases MUST have VLS installed. This is the most critical item at this point. The VL's must be multirole (configured to use various rails), such as for AD missiles, sub-sonic and super sonic cruise missiles depending on the mission. And we must get away from continuous development of sub-sonic cruise systems. Those are now an application for uncontested airspace. Current AD's can take out 75%+ sub-sonic missiles so time has come for high mach supersonic cruise missiles (if not hypersonic just yet).

Ukraine takes out 70%+ Russian subsonic cruise missiles. Our main concern is India and they already have a layered AD in place. So supersonic missiles needed moving forward (high machs, not mach 2).

The trick lies in the on board EW capability. Can they take out Tomahawks???

 

[Horse_Rider]

The trick lies in the on board EW capability. Can they take out Tomahawks???

The real trick lies in the Net-Centric warfare capability not in the individual onboard sensors of a missile. The US doesn't fire or use any weapon if it has a concern of that system becoming useless on the world media. It's the largest industrial complex and it's weapons have solid reputation.

When Tomahawks are fired, it's after making sure the hostile AD systems are jammed or "spoofed" or air dominance is achieved at the least. Take an example of Libya and Syria. Syria had S-400 and guess what happened? Tomahawks literally hit hangers a few hundred yards away from S-400 radar and launchers! Israel pretty much flies into Syria without much detection or counter measures from Syria.

In India's case, it's also using state of the art tech from US and Israel and has a well layered AD. So it's imperative that Pakistan changes it's strategy with respect to subsonic cruise missiles that can even be taken out by manpads / jets / AD's. The basic strategy right now is to go towards high mach or better yet, Hypersonic. Pakistan isn't doing any real R&D in Hypersonic space so for now, it needs high mach missiles that can't be countered due to sheer speed, akin to India's Prithvi system that they've produced in thousands knowing it's hard to impossible to counter due to its insane speed (mach 3+) . That's as basic as it can get and we can add AI to these missiles also and make them extremely hard to counter even in the future. With time, we'll acquire Hypersonic glide vehicles but for now it needs to be high mach cruise missiles with depressed trajectory.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The real tick lies in the Net-Centric warfare capability not in the individual onboard sensors of a missile. The US doesn't fire or use any weapon if it has a concern of that system becoming useless on the world media. It's the largest industrial complex and it's weapons have solid reputation.

When Tomahawks are fired, it's after making sure the hostile AD systems are jammed or "spoofed" or air dominance is achieved at the least. Take an example of Libya and Syria. Syria had S-400 and guess what happened? Tomahawks literally hit hangers a few hundred yards away from S-400 radar and launchers! Israel pretty much flies into Syria without much detection or counter measures from Syria.

In India's case, it's also using state of the art tech from US and Israel and has a well layered AD. So it's imperative that Pakistan changes it's strategy with respect to subsonic cruise missiles that can even be taken out by manpads / jets / AD's. The basic strategy right now it to go towards high mach or better yet, Hypersonic. Pakistan isn't doing any real R&D in Hypersonic space so for now, it needs high mach missiles that can't be countered due to sheer speed, akin to India's Prithvi system that they've produced in thousands knowing it's hard to impossible to counter due to its insane speed (mach 3+) . That's as basic as it can get and we can add AI to these missiles also and make them extremely hard to counter even in the future. With time, we'll acquire Hypersonic glide vehicles but for now it needs to be high mach cruise missiles or missiles with depressed trajectory.

In that case PAF needs to employ HAVASOJ type systems to ensure corridors for the stealthy CMs over 600km ranges.....

 

[Foinikas]

Syria had S-400 and guess what happened? Tomahawks literally hit hangers a few hundred yards away from S-400 radar and launchers! Israel pretty much flies into Syria without much detection or counter measures from Syria.

Russians operate the S-400s and they don't use them against Israel. As for the tomahawk attack,these are the systems and numbers of missiles they had shot down. According to the Russians of course.

 

[Horse_Rider]

In that case PAF needs to employ HAVASOJ type systems to ensure corridors for the stealthy CMs over 600km ranges.....

What HAVASOJ would do, the PAF already does it routinely and we have special mission aircrafts also that keep a solid eye on all Indian communication, Radar emitters, and other RF related operations. Ask the pilots of IAF's Mirage 2000 (upgraded) and Bisons (with Israeli radars) from that air skirmish a couple of years ago, they were probably seeing PacMan game on their radar screens.

My focus on the subject was just missile interception to increase the penetration % of our munitions. We dodge AD's by using hi mach supersonic cruise missiles for now. We add AI to those later and have a solid solution against counter assault systems.

Russians operate the S-400s and they don't use them against Israel. As for the tomahawk attack,these are the systems and numbers of missiles they had shot down. According to the Russians of course.

View attachment 904805

These numbers are astronomically unbelievable. For example, in the above, it says "Syria acquired Russian systems 40 years ago". Then it details out Pantsir and S-400 volleys, which didn't exist 40 years ago. Russians are terrible at lying, and can't lie even when it's in writing. I've seen some examples of similar "agree in one sentence, deny in the second sentence" communication from the current Ukraine war.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

India's Prithvi system that they've produced in thousands knowing it's hard to impossible to counter due to its insane speed (mach 3+)

All Ballistic missiles have similar or even higher speeds. Prithvi is a ballistic missile. Pakistan already have such stuff. Perhaps you meant Brahmos ?

Secondly, speed isn't everything. You mentioned yourself Tomahawk hit targets nearby S-300/400 sites. Tomahawks are subsonic missile, the main capability of subsonic missiles are terrain hugging and very low flight and thus they are harder to detect. Supersonic ones cannot remain hidden as their flight path is considerably at higher altitude and they also generate lot of heat signature. So its a trade-off basically.

 

[Horse_Rider]

All Ballistic missiles have similar or even higher speeds. Prithvi is a ballistic missile. Pakistan already have such stuff. Perhaps you meant Brahmos ?

Secondly, speed isn't everything. You mentioned yourself Tomahawk hit targets nearby S-300/400 sites. Tomahawks are subsonic missile, the main capability of subsonic missiles are terrain hugging and very low flight and thus they are harder to detect. Supersonic ones cannot remain hidden as their flight path is considerably at higher altitude and they also generate lot of heat signature. So its a trade-off basically.

Yes, Brahmos! Thanks for identifying my typo.

Manpads shoot down the terrain hugging cruise missiles in numbers now, in addition to AD missiles. German Geraff and other lower end AD weapons and IRIS-T missiles have been listed as 100% effective against cruise missiles and drones by Ukraine. Those days are gone when terrain hugging was a big deal. The impact with modern systems has reduced on terrain hugging weapons. Kinzahl (HGV) has been the only weapon Russia used with 100% success due to it's speed. They can't use it often as it's their strategic weapon.

Supersonic (hi mach, not just supersonic at mach 1.5) depressed trajectory still works and is unbeatable at Mach 3+. Kindly read up on examples in my previous posts.

 

[time pass]

Is PN thinking of going the AS3600 route for their JCF instead of the Istanbul class? ASFAT is one of the JCF's main contractors and the company that developed the AS3600 concept.

Any respectable member, like @arslank03 @Bilal Khan (Quwa), can shed some information on it, however thread spoilers stay away please.

IMO, looking the conceptional design (Weapons & sensors suite) the tonnage would end up 4k plus.

ASFAT showcases heavily armed AS3600 frigate at IDEF 2023 - Naval News

Turkish defense contractor ASFAT, which is affiliated with the Turkish Ministry of Defense, unveiled a new frigate design called the "AS3600" at the IDEF 2023 defense exhibition held last week in Istanbul.

www.navalnews.com