Ex-navy chief:Op Parakram was mistake

[livingdead]

The Indian cost for the buildup was 21,600 crore (US$4.82 billion), while the Pakistani cost was $1.4 billion. Also it took India months to mobilize and lost 789 men in the process... around 200 in the initial phase of laying mines.

After remaining paralysed on the border for almost a year, the Indian forces withdraw was unilateral and seen as both humiliating and soul destroying.

Indian mobilization was aimed as much as at US and as at pakistan. Even then some of the results of coercive diplomacy are not so quite evident.
1. Musharraf suddenly 'understood' Indian position.
2. US tilt towards India, and at least the congress
3. Nobody seems to utter K word now a days, not to hurt indian 'feelings', as if pakistanis have no 'feelings'
4. The world in general(US, the primary defence supplier of pakistan in particular) is more open to unilateral war/strike from India than ever before.
5. Managed opinion in India

I would argue not going to war was the right thing to do. What would it have achieved that we did not achieve. Was stopping the terror in Kashmir a coincidence? Or was it bargained? Would we have achieved that with a war?

 

[Secur]

But this is a thing of the past as we now have Cold start.

Yeah , a doctrine developed under the influence but practically impossible

Indian mobilization was aimed as much as at US and as at pakistan. Even then some of the results of coercive diplomacy are not so quite evident.
1. Musharraf suddenly 'understood' Indian position.
2. US tilt towards India, and at least the congress
3. Nobody seems to utter K word now a days, not to hurt indian 'feelings', as if pakistanis have no 'feelings'
4. The world in general(US, the primary defence supplier of pakistan in particular) is more open to unilateral war/strike from India than ever before.
5. Managed opinion in India

I would argue not going to war was the right thing to do. What would it have achieved that we did not achieve. Was stopping the terror in Kashmir a coincidence? Or was it bargained? Would we have achieved that with a war?

So the whole drama was done to establish better relations with US of A ? That was the funniest thing i ever heard ... Millions of INR spent and around 800 troops killed just so that US of A supports India in the future I rest my case here Indians knew that if they went to war it will result in Mutually Assured Destruction ... The whole mobilization was just aimed at Indians to tell them " Hey we are doing something " Try to explain what did Musharraf suddenly understood ...

 

[livingdead]

Yeah , a doctrine developed under the influence but practically impossible

So the whole drama was to establish better relations with US of A ? That was the funniest thing i ever heard ... Millions of INR spent and around 800 troops killed just so that US of A supports India in the future I rest my case here Indians knew that if they went to war it will result in Mutually Assured Destruction ... The whole mobilization was just aimed at Indians to tell them " Hey we are doing something "

I dont know what was the aim of the mobilization. I can only tell the effect. You decide for yourself, whether going to war would have given same/more/less result.
US had a lot of levers to push in pakistan back then, even the kargil war was stopped by US mediation.
It makes perfect sense to scare them of 'two nuclear armed countries at war' scenario' as a 'victim' so that you make less concession.

US hardware sale to pakistan was our major concern, and it has been addressed more or less.

You have conveniently ignored the 'managing public opinion' part.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Why are these Indian navy guys so pessimistic I wonder ?

First Admiral Suresh Mehta , now this guy . The Navy should take its cue from the Army and Air Force to give us some assurances , rather than talk derogatorily about our capabilities/decisions . When admirals and vice-admirals start giving incomplete pictures , it lowers the morale of both the servicemen under them and of the general public.

I would like to see Barkha Dutt or Arnab throw a spotlight on their faces and ask them some tough questions in front of millions of Indian viewers ?

Would really love to see them answer the question " If you can't defend Indian interests and meet objectives , then why are you in your uniform ? "

The Air Force and Army chiefs are far more aggressive and reassuring.

 

[Windjammer]

Indian mobilization was aimed as much as at US and as at pakistan. Even then some of the results of coercive diplomacy are not so quite evident.
1. Musharraf suddenly 'understood' Indian position.
2. US tilt towards India, and at least the congress
3. Nobody seems to utter K word now a days, not to hurt indian 'feelings', as if pakistanis have no 'feelings'
4. The world in general(US, the primary defence supplier of pakistan in particular) is more open to unilateral war/strike from India than ever before.
5. Managed opinion in India

I would argue not going to war was the right thing to do. What would it have achieved that we did not achieve. Was stopping the terror in Kashmir a coincidence? Or was it bargained? Would we have achieved that with a war?

So the mobilization takes place after the attack on Indian parliament, yet according to you the exercise was to kill off the Kashmir cause .....the culprits must have sussed it out....any wonder then they followed up with an attack on Mumbai.

 

[livingdead]

So the mobilization takes place after the attack on Indian parliament, yet according to you the exercise was to kill off the Kashmir cause .....the culprits must have sussed it out....any wonder then they followed up with an attack on Mumbai.

In my view, it was good that we did not go to war. The reason could be slow mobilization or lack of political will. But in the end you cant stop terrorism by going to war.
You can stop it only by bargaining/talking.
And you should use all your resources to force other to give you maximum concession as possible.
1. Pakistan is not afganistan, it has seen economic prosperity, they can be pushed if the prosperity is visibly diminished.
2. Pakistan had powerful backers(still has), you can reduce the support and force pakistan's hand.
3. Give a dose of its own medicine, or show you are capable of doing it.

 

[MilSpec]

The Indian cost for the buildup was 21,600 crore (US$4.82 billion), while the Pakistani cost was $1.4 billion. Also it took India months to mobilize and lost 789 men in the process... around 200 in the initial phase of laying mines.

After remaining paralysed on the border for almost a year, the Indian forces withdraw was unilateral and seen as both humiliating and soul destroying.

It was a learning experience... troop mobilization deficiencies were studied and A new doctrine (speculated) was crafted which seems cause a lot of nightmares for few.

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

So the mobilization takes place after the attack on Indian parliament, yet according to you the exercise was to kill off the Kashmir cause .....the culprits must have sussed it out....any wonder then they followed up with an attack on Mumbai.

I often wonder how is it that people here can with so ease rub in our faces the massacre of innocent civilians in mumbai, disturbing

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

I often wonder how is it that people here can with so ease rub in our faces the massacre of innocent civilians in mumbai, disturbing

They use a tragedy to score cheap political points , those who do so . That goes for all, both from us and them. Sometimes heat of a debate makes people forget the loss,the tragical nature of the event.

 

[tjpf]

So the mobilization takes place after the attack on Indian parliament, yet according to you the exercise was to kill off the Kashmir cause .....the culprits must have sussed it out....any wonder then they followed up with an attack on Mumbai.

well terrorism in valley has reduced to negligible amount. Where is JKLF? or even Hizb, now the rate at which the terrorist commanders have been killed sheesh only time..

Mumbai was a weak point but didn't that create awareness about Pakistan being a nation sponsoring terrorism in western world.
You are now left with one strong ally China and us- the world!!!!!!!!

 

[Windjammer]

It was a learning experience... troop mobilization deficiencies were studied and A new doctrine (speculated) was crafted which seems cause a lot of nightmares for few.

At what cost and are we talking about the cold start doctrine.... and the saying goes that boards don't hit back.

I often wonder how is it that people here can with so ease rub in our faces the massacre of innocent civilians in mumbai, disturbing

You misread me, there is absolute no rejoicing at the incident.....just the member was making some out of context assertions.

 

[MilSpec]

At what cost and are we talking about the cold start doctrine.... and the saying goes that boards don't hit back.


You misread me, there is absolute no rejoicing at the incident.....just the member was making some out of context assertions.

Glad to hear that.. sorry for the confusion

 

[tjpf]

At what cost and are we talking about the cold start doctrine.... and the saying goes that boards don't hit back.

and also "experience is a good teacher"

 

[Cool_Soldier]

That was a big mobilization from Indian side and it forced Pakistan to do the same response that wasted lot of money of course from both side.As every one knows India did not able to move further due to a number of reasons.Failure of that mobilization made India to make a new doctrine called COLD START.purpose of this method was not to mobilize huge amount of troops and armored corps to border but a small number troops and surgical strikes.But in next step due to Mumbai incident, blame was again put on Pakistan and India tried to use Cold START option but this time failed to take a start.From India,s point of view both were good time to use option but they could not make it.I hope they should have now some new doctrine to use in a new planned scenario.Hence, Cold Start is also dead dead doctrine.

IMO, India should stop making new and new doctrine and should try to resolve basic disputes with Pakistan.Then there would be no need to make all these mobilization.

 

[AUz]

whatever makes you happy but do remember that when they actually do cross the border the other side either ends up defending their own land or ends up splitting into two. ok now continue with your "i am all powerful" tarana

Are you a retard,sweety? I "used" to think that you are mature girl but alas ! I forgot that you're a bharti

Listen Honey: If you know ANYTHING about strategic issues and about how wars are conducted...you would agree with me that a full-fledged war b/w Pakistan and bhartimata is becoming more and more unlikely. War is not about killing or proving your "superiority" over the other..Its about achieving long-term political goals.Now think what political goal can India achieve by invading a nuclear-armed country with an Army of 700,000 + STRONG ! ??? Eliminate terrorism that is a BIGGER problem for Pakistan (enemy) than it is for YOUR OWN country (India)?? At what price? By sacrificing your decades of economic development? Risking a nuclear war in the region? I have no problem if you bhartis wanna take pride in 71' war....as if it was some sort of military achievement? HAH ! but don't pollute cyber space with your rhetoric

Also,I didn't say we are all power full..I mentioned that India enjoys an advantage over Pakistan...Can you read English?

jitna chaho uchall lo, STILL Kashmir is with us, Karhmir toh tm logo ko milne se raha ha ha ha ha you can't match us ever, sweet sweet truth

You,my friend,need to grow up. Kid first learn something before commenting on my post next time.Thanks

Matching you is not even our goal..You are a 10 times bigger country that is STILL obsessed with a country 1/10th of your size. Now pul-eeeseeeeee don't say " No no..we aren't obsessed and blah blah" .... China is a country of YOUR size (very less difference in terms of population) ...Look at them and look at you...

 

[JonAsad]

Indians superiority lies only in their sheer numbers- They are lucky 1.6+ billion with no balls- other wise we would have eaten them alive by now - all they can do is bluff and gather their forces along the border for mass general public consumption-