Eurofighter can step in if talks with Rafale fails: UK

[Abingdonboy]

Few days back, I read that UK + Other Countries willing to give 100 TOT to India and even open a workshop wherein Euro Fighters of UK, Germany others would get repaired too. Why can't we dump Rafael Deal and go with it?

@Sidak, firstly there is no such thing as "100% ToFT" and secondly, more importantly, no such deal was made and if someone reported it had been they can't know this and are speculating/trying to disrupt the Rafale negotiations.

The fact of that matter is EFT made their bid, lost and were eliminated. There is no way back in for them now.

 

[Yeti]

A complicated & slightly controversial method was used to calculate life cycle cost. It has been reported that Rafale's offer was calculated at $20 billion & EF's, $21 billion. Thereafter the EF consortium supposedly offered to reduce the price by some $ 3 billion to get back into reckoning and that's where it has remained. Further details have not been forthcoming.

Was your view Bang Galore of this whole MRCA deal? you feel we should still proceed and pick the Rafale? or you have some doubts now?

 

[Abingdonboy]

This is what most Indian members fail to see. Euro fighters is offering deal of the lifetime. If these members are so concerned of our domestic industry and increasing our capabilities, the EUROFIGHTER makes absolute sense.

"Deal of a lifetime" based on your own fantasies?

You think the Eurofighter consortium is some shining saviour now they have been eliminated? No matter what happens the Rafale deal as will be a game changer for the Indian aviation industry, this is a major part of the MMRCA from the start.

Forget the Eurofighter ince and for all....

 

[Yeti]

@Sidak, firstly there is no such thing as "100% ToFT" and secondly, more importantly, no such deal was made and if someone reported it had been they can't know this and are speculating/trying to disrupt the Rafale negotiations.

The fact of that matter is EFT made their bid, lost and were eliminated. There is no way back in for them now.

But they could offer a counter bid? as tenders in my experience are just that tenders and the deal is only signed on the contract and that is when it is done and dusted. There was a high level meeting with Modi and Hague and I am sure they talked of slashing the price and offering more goodies to try to get back in the reckoning.

Analysts have said that as the discussions on the Rafale deal proceed, Eurofighter is likely to remain a conspicuous offstage presence, ready to jump in at the first sign of trouble.

Hague Pushes Eurofighter on India Visit | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[帅的一匹]

Will you offer full tech transfer? including engine tech?

if we didn't get off on the wrong feet in 1962, China would have attended the bidding in the first place. just image how beauty it is when J10 fly over India sky.

 

[Yeti]

This is how tenders work it is a game of cat and mice lol the losing party will never give up until the fat lady sings as they will still feel they can turn it around somehow or someway.

if we didn't get off on the wrong feet in 1962, China would have attended the bidding in the first place. just image how beauty it is when J10 fly over India sky.

Would you allow us to reverse engineer it? and we could cancel the agreement after purchasing only 18 and make a Indian version of the J10 dragon and call it say the tiger10

 

[Abingdonboy]

But they could offer a counter bid? as tenders in my experience are just that tenders and the deal is only signed on the contract and that is when it is done and dusted. There was a high level meeting with Modi and Hague and I am sure they talked of slashing the price and offering more goodies to try to get back in the reckoning.

Analysts have said that as the discussions on the Rafale deal proceed, Eurofighter is likely to remain a conspicuous offstage presence, ready to jump in at the first sign of trouble.

Hague Pushes Eurofighter on India Visit | Defense News | defensenews.com

Well the government officials representing the Eurofighter consortium nations can (and have) talk to Indian officials about revising the Eurofighter bid but under the original MMRCA policy(and pretty much how all Indian defence deals work) once the L1 bidder is declared that is the end of the line for the L2 bidder UNLESS the govt is unable to work out a deal with the L1 bidder. The notion the L2 bidder can simply revise their bid and be allowed back into the fray is ludicrous for obvious reasons- that merry go round would go on forever.

Some speculate there would thus be an opportunity for the L2 bidder (EFT) to swoop back in and steal the show but my hunch is that in such an eventuality the entire deal would be scrapped and alternatives found-there simply is no precedent for the L2 bidder securing the deal once the talks with the L1 bidder fail.


It's all elementary anyway, the Rafale deal will be signed this year but it doesn't hurt for the GoI to keep the EFT in the background when sitting down and trying to come to agreeable terms with Dassualt.

 

[Yeti]

Well the government officials representing the Eurofighter consortium nations can (and have) talk to Indian officials about revising the Eurofighter bid but under the original MMRCA policy(and pretty much how all Indian defence deals work) once the L1 bidder is declared that is the end of the line for the L2 bidder UNLESS the govt is unable to work out a deal with the L1 bidder. The notion the L2 bidder can simply revise their bid and be allowed back into the fray is ludicrous for obvious reasons- that merry go round would go on forever.

Some speculate there would thus be an opportunity for the L2 bidder (EFT) to swoop back in and steal the show but my hunch is that in such an eventuality the entire deal would be scrapped and alternatives found-there simply is no precedent for the L2 bidder securing the deal once the talks with the L1 bidder fail.


It's all elementary anyway, the Rafale deal will be signed this year but it doesn't hurt for the GoI to keep the EFT in the background when sitting down and trying to come to agreeable terms with Dassualt.

I too feel that the magnitude of such a large deal does take time to bear fruit as so many contractors are involved and hard nose negotiations to take place so it does take time for it to be sealed. If not 2014 I predicted myself march 2015 as when the deal will be signed but I am hoping it would be done this year.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I too feel that the magnitude of such a large deal does take time to bear fruit as so many contractors are involved and hard nose negotiations to take place so it does take time for it to be sealed. If not 2014 I predicted myself march 2015 as when the deal will be signed but I am hoping it would be done this year.

I feel like we may see some sort of "pre contract" signed this year locking both sides into an agreement and then the official deal signed (and funds released) in early 2015 -around March time.

 

[axisofevil]

It has been admitted hands down that EFT is te bettter fighter compared to the Rafael. Remember? We chose Rafael based on other reason which dont seem to hold much water now.

 

[C130]

A complicated & slightly controversial method was used to calculate life cycle cost. It has been reported that Rafale's offer was calculated at $20 billion & EF's, $21 billion. Thereafter the EF consortium supposedly offered to reduce the price by some $ 3 billion to get back into reckoning and that's where it has remained. Further details have not been forthcoming.

was that the initial bid? cause I thought the Rafale bid was like 10-12 billion and skyrocketed to over 20billion

 

[Bang Galore]

Was your view Bang Galore of this whole MRCA deal? you feel we should still proceed and pick the Rafale? or you have some doubts now?

I always had doubts about the deal because of the price. I was never convinced with the way the deal was structured. Your analogy of buying accounting software is an excellent example of how one should have gone about the deal, i.e. fix a budget & then seek best offers within the budget. Not as the MoD has done - shortlist on technical specifications & then choose the lower of the two short listed which in this case are the two most expensive ones - Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Really stupid to have put in single engined fighters in the competition if you are not allowing for a correlation between cost & ability. Should have asked all parties to make their costing clear & then place a monetary value on the extra abilities offered. Atleast we would have known clearly what the comparative costing is, not in this opaque manner guaranteed to blow the IAF's budget to bits. Consider this - an initial advance of about 10-15% to the winner (probably Rafale) will be in the region of upto Rs.18,000 crores. The IAF's total capital outlay budget for 2014-15 is about Rs.21,000 crores and this include purchases already cleared for the Chinooks & Apaches. Do the maths. Not only is this deal prohibitively expensive but could also slow down other modernisation requirements because this would take up the bulk of the IAF's budget for the conceivable future. I'm not a fan of the negotiating tactics of the French, thought the M2k upgrade deal was ridiculously priced and I worry that we are in for a long & painful process even after the deal is done. Nor am I convinced about the value & worth of the ToT being supposedly provided.

Having said the above, I see no alternative but to complete some deal quickly and unless there is some deal in the works that we don't know about, we have to make do with whatever we have. The alternative of scrapping the deal without any clear option is not very smart.

was that the initial bid? cause I thought the Rafale bid was like 10-12 billion and skyrocketed to over 20billion

It's complicated, no one has all the details. What I said is what came out on media (good sources usually). How the two figures were arrived at is not clear. Nor is it very clear that those are the actual figures. I have read reports that Dassault is haggling for every option that the IAF wants and that there is quite a bit of frustration in the MoD. (that actually worries me a lot because this is how they are behaving before they actually have a deal. Imagine how it could be after)

 

[sathya]

Britain's Fallon Raises Eurofighter on India Visit | Defense News | defensenews.com

NEW DELHI — British Defence Minister Michael Fallon said Thursday he raised a $12 billion fighter jet deal being negotiated by French company Dassault during talks with his Indian counterpart.

Fallon said he spoke with Defence Minister Arun Jaitley about the contract in the hope of still landing the giant deal being considered by the new right-wing government.

British-backed Eurofighter lost out to the French-made Rafale plane for exclusive negotiations in 2012 to supply 126 fighters.

The French lodged a lower bid than its rival Eurofighter for a tender with an estimated value of $12 billion.

But the negotiations have since been delayed, and have only now been taken up by Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government which stormed to power in May.

“So far as Typhoon Eurofighters are concerned we respect the position the Indian government has adopted,” Fallon said at an event in New Delhi.

“Eurofighter has made it very clear that should the negotiations not progress with the French then we are ready to get into negotiations with the Indian government,” he said.

Fallon added that Britain was “ideally placed to contribute significantly” to India’s defense sector.

India, the world’s biggest arms importer, is in the midst of a $100 billion defense upgrade program and last week cleared projects worth $13.1 billion.

Nationalist leader Modi has said India must build up its military might to the point that no other country “dare cast an evil eye” on the South Asian nation.

A series of corruption scandals under the previous government had brought defense procurement to a near standstill.

Fallon is in Delhi to meet top government ministers as well as commemorate India’s fallen soldiers in World War I, as countries mark the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the conflict.

“I thought it was important for me to be here to mark the memory of all those who served and many of those who died in that great cause a hundred years ago,” he said, after laying a wreath at Delhi’s India Gate memorial.

 

[Cat Shannon]

guys, ef is L2 winner. but in this case L1 is gonna seal the deal.

relax and sit back and expect more of these.

we are talking up of $15 billion here. it is expected.

guys, ef is L2 winner. but in this case L1 is gonna seal the deal.

relax and sit back and expect more of these.

we are talking up of $15 billion here. it is expected.

 

[MastanKhan]

I don't know where this fallacy that the French are being sneaky and arbitrarily raising the cost of the Rafale at all has come from but it is utterly false.

Hi,

Could ISI be behind the rumors----