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End Game Kashmir?

Agreed. Kashmir cause, both for India and Pakistan died the day when both went nuclear. The problem we face now is not Kashmir issue itself, rather face-saving deescalation. For whatever it's worth, it's not going to happen in Modi's India............

Only issue that we should focus on to avert an all out war is water issue........ in the end it won't be Kashmir that will result in a nuclear holocaust, rather water.

The only way either country can get the 'other' Kashmir is through war. Given that both are nuclear powers, war is not an option anymore. For good Kashmir is solved when both countries went nuclear.

The best options available is forget Kashmir and work for the prosperity of our own people. Health care, jobs, food security, and good economy is million times important than Kashmir for both India and Pakistan.
 
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All article from indian side about Kashmir

*Pakistan cannot match indian military
*Pakistan cannot match indian economy

Hence they are weak and they have lost.
 
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With the deepest respect, I would disagree to your last line sir.
I m not specifically referring to the leaders but to the people of the country. Every time we say to our kid's do not get involved in problems that don't concern you, we are inculcating the culture of punching below your weight,,, this keeps stagnating, in the end we are ok with sending dossiers as a response to Mumbai, we are ok with scumbags taunting death of innocent people in our country, we are ok with politicians looting money where denominations have now become irrelevant to even mention.
Lot of our problems are self made... foundation mein gadbad hai sir.

Oh that is what you were referring to? I agree 100%.

We are way too docile a people. Well actually Hindus are. But since they are 80% of our populace, its our national/people identity.

Please do not take offense. I am a honorary Hindu too.

In fact some RSS ideologue types have dubbed me/my people the "original" Hindus .....

Anyways. We need to be more aggro. No two ways about that.
 
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We cant do this with article 370 , can we?

The only thing that stands in the way of Indians flooding Kashmir is the Indian state.

You think it would otherwise have been possible for people to have to ask for permission for something like the Amarnath Yatra every year, year after year?

Can you imagine the irony?
 
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***No trolling pls***


End Game Kashmir?


By Brig Deepak Sinha










These appear to be desperate times not only for the Pakistani Prime Minister and his government but also for the military that we know controls it. They both seem to have clearly understood, even if most Indian politicians in Kashmir or nationally have not, the clear implications of the massive voter turnout that we witnessed in the elections and the emergence of two parties, the PDP and the BJP, with majorities in the Valley and in Jammu respectively.


It must be obvious to them that the inhabitants of the State are no longer willing to remain mired in a never ending cycle of poverty and violence and are willing to shed their inhibitions and embrace change. They must also be fairly certain that if these two parties work in conjunction they are capable of nullifying the limited impact that Mr. Gilani and the Hurriyat continues to exert, thereby destroying the toe hold that Pakistan clung to till now, apart off course meeting the aspirations of the voters.

Most importantly, let us not underestimate the political acumen of the people. They also fully understand the need for the state and central government to be on the same page, if long term rehabilitation and development of the region is to be undertaken. All this apart, the states’ sizeable Shia and Bakkarwal/ Gujjar community is not unaware of the situation within Pakistan and is vehemently opposed to attempts at any merger with Pakistan that can only result in discriminatory treatment at the hands of the majority Sunnis.

There was an Inca prince called Amru, who fought an unconventional war against Spanish rule in eighteenth-century Uruguay. The exposition brilliantly war- gamed and outlined, fairly accurately, the broad contours of the anticipated course of action by Pakistan in Kashmir, especially its resort to covert irregular warfare.

Off course, despite their best efforts, the separatists and their ISI supporters were unable to enlarge the insurgency into a civil war which would then have led to a war of liberation and the formation of an independent Kashmir with Pakistani assistance, much like what we witnessed during the course of the birth of Bangladesh. However, despite the Indian Army’s success Pakistan was able to keep the pot boiling in Kashmir by sending in terrorists covertly that helped focus world attention on the Kashmir dispute.

Despite our best efforts, both diplomatic and military, we have not been successful in deterring Pakistan from waging a proxy war or maintaining peace and tranquility on our borders.

After more than two decades, the Pakistani establishment is now faced with the grim realization that not only is their game plan for keeping Kashmir burning rapidly fizzling out, but also that the world has moved on. Desperate times call for desperate measures, especially since Mr. Sharif’s attempt to bring up the issue at the United Nations General Assembly was so poorly received.

The attempt by Pakistan to resort to indiscriminate firing across the LOC and even along the International Boundary despite retaliation in equal measure by the Security Forces is an attempt to keep the issue in focus, apart from providing assisting in infiltration bids by terror groups located there. Its desperation has reached such limits that it has even made the cardinal mistake of providing trains for a rally organized by the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, the Amir of the Jamat-Ud-Dawa and its military wing the Lashkar-e-Taiba. By this act the Pakistan state has shattered the veil of secrecy that till now allowed them to deny linkages with Hafiz Saeed and the Lashkar. This clearly means that no future attack like that at Mumbai can ever be passed off again as carried out by non-state actors.

Off course, if such an attack were to happen, Pakistan will now attempt to blame either the Al Quaida or the ISIS for carrying it out, though this will no longer be seen as credible.

However, despite our best efforts, both diplomatic and military, we have not been successful in deterring Pakistan from waging a proxy war or maintaining peace and tranquility on our borders. There is now an urgent need to reassess our methodology of countering Pakistan and to look at dissuasion as a possible option.

In this context the Korean situation may have lessons for us because both Pakistan and North Korea appear to be remarkably akin. As Dr. Ayesha Siddiqui, author of Military Inc: Inside Pakistan’s Military Economy, has suggested in her article in The Express Tribune of 6 June 2010 that in both states the military has emerged as the sole institution and their leadership believes in the pre-eminence of its nuclear capability and sees nuclear weapons as vital in negotiating resources from the world community.

As we have witnessed over the years the world community continues to be blackmailed into providing financial support and aid to both these pariah states only because it is unwilling to see them collapse or what is infinitely worse find itself confronting hardl ine or radical elements that would then control the nuclear trigger. While both states harbor hopes of reunification (in our context with Jammu & Kashmir), their policies are focused on regime survival which implies maintaining the primacy of the military under all circumstances.

As Prof Ramesh Thakur of the University of Waterloo has pointed out in the Globe and the Mail of 01 Dec2010 there are notable structural parallels between both the Korean and South Asian potential nuclear flashpoints. “North Korea cannot make war, for it knows it would lose against the combined military might of South Korea and its U.S. ally. It cannot make peace, for then, too, it would lose to its more dynamic and prosperous twin. So it is compelled to maintain tension short of provoking a full-fledged war.

The same equation of neither war nor peace because either would guarantee defeat applies to Pakistan vis-à-vis India. Given the geography, North Korea could certainly inflict heavy damage on Seoul, but its ability to sustain protracted combat is highly suspect.

Meanwhile, South Korea remains a close security ally of the United States; their integrated military command structure would ensure a prompt, unified response to any aggressive North Korean military move. Pakistan cannot match India’s military might. This is why it seeks and India resists international mediation. India’s military forces, defence expenditure, economy and population are all several-fold bigger than Pakistan’s. Moreover, Pakistan’s arms production base is very narrow, and mostly within range of Indian combat aircraft and missiles. Pakistan is ill-placed to fight a war of attrition with India.”


Despite the similarities mentioned there is one notable difference in that the Korean Armistice Line has seen very little provocation on the part of the North Koreans apart from the two incidents in 2010, when it sank the South Korean naval vessel CHEONAN, killing 46 sailors, and shelled Yeonpyeong Island, killing two Marines and two civilians. While the US- South Korea integrated military command structure for prompt response to any aggressive North Korean military moves acts as a deterrent it is possibly the forward deployment of 12 Divisons of the South Korean Army that provide the dissuasive element to this strategy apart from the fact that both the US and South Korean military have clearly made it be known that they would respond aggressively to any military provocation. In our context it would be interesting to know as to what the impact of Op Parakram was on dissuading Pakistan from undertaking provocative actions during that period.

It is time that we deploy our armed forces in the state of Jammu & Kashmir along the entire length of the LOC and International Border and clearly declare our intention to respond aggressively with maximum force against any provocative action in the state including punitive action against Pakistani posts that assist terrorists in their attempts to infiltrate. Such a course of action is likely to force Pakistan to reconsider its present policy of “proxy” war, especially the costs of escalation and if nothing else, it will deter the machismo of Pakistani rank and file and we can hope of the senior military commanders as well.
US too isn't very keen on Kashmir issue and i doubt if China would want to indulge in issue beyond a point.
secondly, to think that BJP would be a part of government in state was hard to believe some years back. it is now a reality. & that allows central government to deal with issue of kashmir on international forra on its own terms when it knows it has backing of people of state in a democratic setup.
third this government knows how to flex muscles. enough said.
even if one keeps hype in recent visit of Indian PM to US aside, one thing is pretty clear. India as a nation and economy in world to be seen in a monochromatic way diplomatically.
PM Nawaz will have listeners to his K song but i hope he realizes that audience is getting thinner.

Only issue that we should focus on to avert an all out war is water issue........ in the end it won't be Kashmir that will result in a nuclear holocaust, rather water.
sir
Indus water treaty has withstood test of time and i'm sure it will remain respected by both nations in future too.
 
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I was quite shocked to be honest to see the way Pakistanis were treating the locals in Pakistan occupied Kashmir, in the video scoop expose done by the Indian news channel, CNN IBN.

There were old men being dragged on the ground and kicked in the face, completely bloodied.

We always knew that Pakistan had systematically changed the entire demography of the parts of Kashmir they had occupied.

Also, Mirpuris are hardly Kashmiri in the real sense of the word.

Punjabis most definitely not.

Its a sad state of affairs. Human rights not the only victim at the altar of expansionist militaristic designs here.

But the very essence of a region and a people that has been systematically demolished and subjugated to an alien populace.

I can feel the pain of genuine Kashmiris like Sarthak Ganguly, who see those masuerading as Kashmiris from the other side gloat and bait.

While we remain silent, and act with restraint. One hand tied eternally behind our backs.

Cheers, Doc
If pakistan has changed the demographics then how come she is beating the same ppl and comitting human rights violations against those she herself has settled there?
 
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If pakistan has changed the demographics then how come she is beating the same ppl and comitting human rights violations against those she herself has settled there?

Pakistan has moved in Punjabis in large numbers. Does not mean they killed off the locals. Just made them a minority. Controllable. Subjugated.

Do you deny that video was of Pakistan occupied Kashmir?

Who were the people being mauled there?
 
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Pakistan has moved in Punjabis in large numbers. Does not mean they killed off the locals. Just made them a minority. Controllable. Subjugated.

Do you deny that video was of Pakistan occupied Kashmir?

Who were the people being mauled there?

That's just a light wanking compared to heavy artillery, gunships, drones, tanks and air strikes on own people elsewhere inside pakistan.
 
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Pakistan has moved in Punjabis in large numbers. Does not mean they killed off the locals. Just made them a minority. Controllable. Subjugated.

Do you deny that video was of Pakistan occupied Kashmir?

Who were the people being mauled there?
There wasnt any old guy mauled there....a single guy was beaten and they were load shedding protests...ihave seen similar treatment given to protestors in mainland pakistan. India had shot dead a 16 year old kashmir boy this year in iok who was a part of protesting crowd pelting stone at police.,the pliceman dragged him out ofthe crowd and shot him......to terrorize kashmiris...does it equate with the load shedding protest beating?
And no pakistan hasnt moved in any punjabis ....if by gujjar caste u mean punjabis ..these people have been native to this land.....as some parts of ajk state were said to be former part of punjab state.....tho historically ajk areas have been off and on merged and seperated from larger kashmiri kingdom maybe due to proximity of this regio to the valley. If u are talking abt ethnic kashmiris ,then ajk has never been their native land ...their native land is only the valley encircled by pir panjal range. Roughly name kashmir was used for entire jammu,kashmir,ladakh and gilgit comprising entire state...but entire state was never ethnic kashmir just as jammu isnt except for few districts as valley ppl have poured out to north punjab,jammu, and ajk.by ur logic half my relatives must be sent back to iok.

Oh mirpur has a large bhat and dar population yet these ppl call themselves mirpuris...mirpuris dont call themselves kashmiris..even if they are ethnic ...well mostly...cuz mirpuri name in itself has become a popular ethnicity...one reason maybe cuz its economically a well off part of ajk state.

Lastly, if pkistan has moved in punjabis to subjugate kashmiris then during protests how they were able to dfferentiate that the people protesting are ethnics or non ethnics?


One more thing....ajk was freed by the locals where rebellion was led by sardar ibrahim khan who was a local of poonch...he is from pathan tribe...so had pakistan already altered demographics of j and k in 47? Lolz

@fakhre mirpur u might need to read the subjugation and minority bit lolzzzz
 
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vnone post: 7720213 said:
Pakistan has moved in Punjabis in large numbers. Does not mean they killed off the locals. Just made them a minority. Controllable. Subjugated.

Do you deny that video was of Pakistan occupied Kashmir?

Who were the people being mauled there?
What the non ajk residents can't even buy land in ajk stop posting Bulls hit and regions that makeup ajk have a complex history
That video was from loadshedding protests
Protesters run amok in Mirpur - The Express Tribune

most ajkians speak pahari

@Shamain please use the proper name Azad kashmir
 
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What the non ajk residents can't even buy land in ajk stop posting Bulls hit and regions that makeup ajk have a complex history
That video was from loadshedding protests
Protesters run amok in Mirpur - The Express Tribune

most ajkians speak pahari

@Shamain please use the proper name Azad kashmir
Ok ihave fixed it...i angrily wrote that cuz levina had intentionally added a map to her post using term pak occupied.... anyways the moderator had edited her post.
 
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Pakistan has moved in Punjabis in large numbers. Does not mean they killed off the locals. Just made them a minority. Controllable. Subjugated.

Rubbish, and it's been debunked many times on this forum. What are you going to come out with next, that the Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbeks are not real Afghans? The Phari speaking folks have been there for hundreds of years and the differences between the Koshur speaking Kashmiris are ever so slight. Indian Kashmir also has vast numbers of phari speaking people in Rajouri and Poonch, although not Kashmir, still administered as part of the territory Jammu and Kashmir. Beside Koshir is a Dardic tongue, which is the common family of languages spoken in Pakistan's Northern Areas.

What the non ajk residents can't even buy land in ajk stop posting Bulls hit and regions that makeup ajk have a complex history
That video was from loadshedding protests
Protesters run amok in Mirpur - The Express Tribune

most ajkians speak pahari

@Shamain please use the proper name Azad kashmir

No you got it all wrong. All our native AJK folk know nothing. These guys posting form Gujarat, Mumbai, Calcutta etc have it right, because IBN says so....:agree:
 
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