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Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

Lastly china is more then willing to supply Egypt S-10 BVRAAM equipped Thunder, but lets assume if they face any resistance from Israel as you say,then they can sell them through Pakistan as the deal would be struck between Pakistan and Egypt, it will be a similar situation where Russia provided us RD-93 through china even when Indian made a lot of noise. And remember china is not as dependent or close to Israel as India is to Russia. I wont be even surprised if MiCA BVRAAM, finds its way in Egypt's Arsenal.


The sole point which makes the Thunder valuable is its BVR capability at an affordable price. Without BVR the affordability factor becomes worthless and that's why it is center of attraction for the third world and most probably the biggest replacement for Third generation fighters like Mirages, Mig 21s and F- 7s. And of course Chinese know this, after all we all know how good business people they are.


I think so sd-10 with better operational range (100 km) is a better choice against mica (>60km). After all Egyptian BVR AAMs are going to be compared against aim-120s israel has. (Not in war :no: but in defense talks :coffee:)
 
I think so sd-10 with better operational range (100 km) is a better choice against mica (>60km). After all Egyptian BVR AAMs are going to be compared against aim-120s israel has. (Not in war :no: but in defense talks :coffee:)

Which BVRAAM is more capable and which is not the question here, the question here is their availability to Egypt, the answer to which is a DEFINITE YES . Its for them to Choose what they want to choose, and what suits them better.






:pakistan:


Adios
 
well here is the actual and complete article from Janes for your review:



well with so many Howevers in the article we must hold back the party until somthing more solid surfaces in this. . . . . .

regards!

Sir those additional F-16 C/D without BVR capability can not replace 60 Mig-21 + 53 J-7+ 18 Mirage 2000 + 60 Mirage 5.

They will be replaced by F-16 +JF-17 thunder inshaALLAH.
 
You are wrong. As our esteemed member Araz has already explained that beautifully with reference to PAF History ,and needs no more explanation, but I would just want to add a little with an example. F-7 is Chinese product, so is F-7 PG, but what PAF has done to it, is that they have made at least 40 different integrations and changes of western origin. Like Griffo is an Italian radar and on board. basically F-7PG is a Chinese Airframe and Engine With westren Avionics.

If the show has been displayed in the past without an problem, so why would it be difficult to display in future. Lets not use Cannons to Kill Mosquitoes.

There was a compelling need for PAF to turn its F-7 to have some European form of gizmos, since F-7 as it is belonging to second generation catagory, there is very little you can do to upgrade the same with European avionics to make it lethal. Certainly PAF's history of applying F-7 with something European doesn't make them any competitive, yes it may have improved certain capabilities but not much in the catagory which can seriously considered for applying the same option to JF-17 thunder.






There was no American origin Radar under consideration, and for that matter any avionics package. Only European and Chinese Radars were in competition. It was reported that Chinese were working on Aesa radar to win the competition, but lets leave it here as not much is available about it. Amongst the European, Griffo, French RC 400, and Selex Vixen 1000 E Aesa radar were considered. Griffo the weakest of all was never a serious contender. Selex Vixen 1000 E would have been obviously the best choice, because its Aesa and not PD, and therefore a lot more capable. But its also out now, for possibly two reasons, 1.) cost factor 2.) It is also the Radar for Gripen NG, so possibly faced some resistance.

All in all, RC 400 seems to fit in perfectly, for many reasons

1) A very capable radar, meets all needs and parameters.
2) French being known as reliable partners, then rest of the
European lot.
3) Currently french are not getting any major orders and their Industry is in trouble for that matter. Rafael is a well known case, they are not even getting up grade orders for the mirages,e.g India and Taiwan etc. So naturally, they are more then willing to bend a little and we can negotiate /bargain with a better position.
4) For the same reason, It has been rumored that they are offering a miniaturized version of Spectra for the thunders as part of deal, which would be a very big plus if true.
5) Not only Radar and avionics but also weapons, specially MBDA MICA BVRAAM and also their integration are in the package gives it a big plus.

With all these goodies, its almost confirmed that French Avionics and Armament deal is almost finalized and will be soon signed. It has been in news since February that deal for the next batch of 50 is worth more then 1 Billion Euros i.e 1.4 billion dollars, with an option for 50 more on the same conditions.

Can I have a link for finalization of French avionics for JF-17 for $ 1.4 billion? and yes I was talking about successful integration of the same by Pakistan in order to consider JF-17 a viable contender for Egypt deal.

This is a complete package, and with all these goodies, It will put JF-17 in the big guns league, Still at a portion of their price. These packages are not offered by the Chinese, nor they can acquire them. Only Pakistan is in a position to acquire, Integrate, test and offer them, and hence would cut the mustered.

Since when Pakistan is in a position to acquire, integrate, test and offer them especially when they yet to field even a single JF-17 to make it that approch more viable, which is quite obivious with PAF's first 50 JF-17 with chinese avionics. Integrating F-7 with European avionics will not give Pakistan a capability to the same for JF-17.



Why would be the Egyptians not enticed with such an offer??? They to would like to have a more capable fighter. And keeping in mind that French too are very good business people, they don't have any problems with the Egyptians and would be more then willing to make a buck if possible through JF-17s way, seeing their potential.
So all green for me.

I wasn't talking of getting enticed with offering rather more concerned about the capability it will bring in.

Lastly but more importantly, Pakistan is 50% partner in the project and thus has the marketing rights, but it doesn't mean china will be out of the game and sitting on the spectators bench. Of course it will be on board and play a very active part if the deal goes through. Most probably It will help Egypt in setting the Assembly line and provide Critical parts as Engines, some parts of the Airframe, Armaments, training to their staff etc. The bottom line is, China is still holding very important position, and the good point is there seems no disagreement as how to split the pie. Same will apply if China makes a deal.

I think some post back, one of the member has put partnership stake of Pak at 58%?



How??? What do you mean by much advanced??? their F-16s lacks BVR. The new block 52 ordered are only 20 in number, means just 1 Squadron. Even that order had to be cut short from 24 to 20.

I wasn't talking about numbers rather about capability and yes BVR isn't the end of the world, if Egypt was so concerned about BVR then they may certainly gone for a Flankers and Fulcurms.




Well for that you need to understand the basic meanings of defense and deterrence. You are right they surely will have to face a superior Israeli Air force, but that doesn't mean they have to face Israel with an equal force. Isn't Pakistan facing the same situation, with regards to much superior Indian air force, which has massive advantage in numbers as well as quality. It then wouldn't make sense either for Pakistan to acquire thunders. But we are acquiring and acquiring them in numbers, and we are not fools to do so.

This not as simple as you think, the whole point of having a fighter or any Arm for that matter by a country who is weaker, or just want to defend its borders and sovereignty and have no offensive desires is to have a minimum deterrence, that makes the aggressive party think twice, before making a misadventure. Giving them an early warning that, you would suffer also if you try inflict harm on us, and we simply wont let you run through us.

Every war/conflict is measured with respect to Cost-to-Benefit. The whole point of minimum deterrence is to increase that Cost to an extent where the benefit becomes insignificant.

This is where Jf-17 would provide the Egyptians the minimum deterrence they need against Israel. The same would it do for Pakistan against India.

Apart from that I need not to explain, the cost, numbers,political, ownership, and other aspects, which has been beaten to death and are well known.

So is there any reason left to show the significance of thunders???

pakistan::china:

Adios

Before teaching me a basic meaning of defence and deterrance, first you need to get the meaning of your own statement which is far from any compromise. Just because Pakistan is fielding JF-17 against potent Flankers, Migs and Mirage, it doesn't mean Egypt will be stupid enough to do the same. Since Pakistan has its own reason to integrate JF-17 in its force because they weren't had means and measure to look towards any possible option either because of western strings or unaffordibility.
 
I think so sd-10 with better operational range (100 km) is a better choice against mica (>60km). After all Egyptian BVR AAMs are going to be compared against aim-120s israel has. (Not in war :no: but in defense talks :coffee:)

Range is not the only criteria to judge a AAM capability other wise Russia would be dominating the skies today over USAF.
 
There was a compelling need for PAF to turn its F-7 to have some European form of gizmos, since F-7 as it is belonging to second generation catagory, there is very little you can do to upgrade the same with European avionics to make it lethal. Certainly PAF's history of applying F-7 with something European doesn't make them any competitive, yes it may have improved certain capabilities but not much in the catagory which can seriously considered for applying the same option to JF-17 thunder.








Can I have a link for finalization of French avionics for JF-17 for $ 1.4 billion? and yes I was talking about successful integration of the same by Pakistan in order to consider JF-17 a viable contender for Egypt deal.



Since when Pakistan is in a position to acquire, integrate, test and offer them especially when they yet to field even a single JF-17 to make it that approch more viable, which is quite obivious with PAF's first 50 JF-17 with chinese avionics. Integrating F-7 with European avionics will not give Pakistan a capability to the same for JF-17.





I wasn't talking of getting enticed with offering rather more concerned about the capability it will bring in.



I think some post back, one of the member has put partnership stake of Pak at 58%?





I wasn't talking about numbers rather about capability and yes BVR isn't the end of the world, if Egypt was so concerned about BVR then they may certainly gone for a Flankers and Fulcurms.






Before teaching me a basic meaning of defence and deterrance, first you need to get the meaning of your own statement which is far from any compromise. Just because Pakistan is fielding JF-17 against potent Flankers, Migs and Mirage, it doesn't mean Egypt will be stupid enough to do the same. Since Pakistan has its own reason to integrate JF-17 in its force because they weren't had means and measure to look towards any possible option either because of western strings or unaffordibility.



Post Ignored, Poster Marked


Thanks for your concerns.






:pakistan::china:



Adios
 
We get 50% of the revenue
Of what exactly?

See, the first 50 x JF 17 that PAF will get will have a Chinese config (Chinese Radar, wepons, EWS and other avionics) and later 100 with French config (French radar, weapons, EWS and other avionics). So if PAC KAMRA only get these pakages to assemble them in Pakistan, but can't licence produce and sell these to export customers, Pakistan won't get 50% revenue of these parts right?
The engine is Russian and come over China as well, Pakistan also won't earn something from this part.

As far as I understand it, Pakistan had co-developed/co-funded the design and development of JF 17, without radar, engine, most parts of the avionics and weapons, because these are variable and can come from China as well as western countries. So if JF 17 will be exported, Pakistan can only get revenue from those parts which are not variable right?
That's why I asked for a confirmation and which parts exactly this could be where Pakistan will earn money from?
Airframe parts will sooner or later come completelly from Pakistan I guess, what about avionics, which parts of it will be produced by PAC KAMRA?
 
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You are presenting only hypothetical scenarios. Not only does Israel enjoy good relations with China, but also with Russia and France. Israel and Russia have also collaborated/cooperated in various projects, yielding benefits for both, but that doesn't mean Russian planes and Hi-tech arms will not be sold to the adversaries of Israel. Iran is one such case, from long range SAM's to latest generation jet fighters, all available to them. Same goes for french. I already explained this issue in one of my earlier posts.
Israeli defense relations with Russia, France, USA are in a different league as compared to her relations with China. Neither Russia or France are relying on any cutting edge technology from Israel, but China, has yet to reach to a point where its relationship with Israel will be equal in terms of sophisticated technologies. Whereas France (as well as other Western countries) is reluctant to deal with China, Israel is relatively open and in the near future, I don’t see China would like to let go this important collaboration.

Secondly Egypt is one country amongst very few Muslim countries with a better image in the West, why some people are comparing them to Iran or North Korea, who are thought to be axis of evil in the west and therefore their every move regarding defense article procurement is tried to be blocked by the west. Egypt has no such issues.
Yes, only a better image, nothing more than that. It was for the same better image that US never supplied the Egypt with AMRAAM; and if US wont supply Egypt with something she thinks would in anyway challenge the absolute supremacy of the IDFAF, than no other country under the US influence would. Egypt can only hope to get something like this from Russia, but the way Egypt trashed its former ally Soviet Union after the war of 1973, and fell in the lap of the US, I don’t think Russia would be too enthusiastic to help Egypt. The Egyptian Air Force is eying on acquiring the BVR capability for decades, but it never materialized because nobody is willing to give it to them. So it is incorrect to say that the US and her Western allies have no issues with Egypt on procuring hi-tech defense hardware whereas they have them with Iran or North Korea.


Lastly china is more then willing to supply Egypt S-10 BVRAAM equipped Thunder, but lets assume if they face any resistance from Israel as you say,then they can sell them through Pakistan as the deal would be struck between Pakistan and Egypt, it will be a similar situation where Russia provided us RD-93 through china even when Indian made a lot of noise. And remember china is not as dependent or close to Israel as India is to Russia. I wont be even surprised if MiCA BVRAAM, finds its way in Egypt's Arsenal.
China is more than willing to supply with SD-10 is yet to be seen; as of now, there is only a news of selling some JF-17s and a possibility of having a production line in Egypt. China would sell SD-10 through Pakistan is also not possible; China is far independent and sovereign a country than Pakistan who is capable of cutting deals while ignoring American and Western concerns, Pakistan….. I do not have to say more on Pakistan’s independence and sovereignty; you are intelligent enough to figure it out.

You can not equate the sale of a Russian jet engine to Pakistan via China with the sale of a BVR AAM to Egypt via Pakistan. I would have bought your point if Pakistan was acquiring R-77 or S-300/400 from Russia via China, and Indian voice was ignored. Unlike you, I would be surprised if MiCA finds its way to Egypt at least not until Israel is ready to counter that threat.

The sole point which makes the Thunder valuable is its BVR capability at an affordable price. Without BVR the affordability factor becomes worthless and that's why it is center of attraction for the third world and most probably the biggest replacement for Third generation fighters like Mirages, Mig 21s and F- 7s. And of course Chinese know this, after all we all know how good business people they are.
There is no question why JF-17 is an attractive choice for many customers, but supplying every Air Force with SD-10 is not going to happen. Its an assumption at best if we think that JF-17 will be able to have a monopoly on the market of its class of fighters in the third world. The selling of Su-30 to countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia and Grippen to Thailand should serve as an eye opener. As a Pakistani, I wish all the best for the JF-17 program, but its selling to a number of countries would no way prove a slam dunk as many are prophesizing.
 
So if JF 17 will be exported, Pakistan can only get revenue from those parts which are not variable right?
That's why I asked for a confirmation and which parts exactly this could be where Pakistan will earn money from?
Airframe parts will sooner or later come completelly from Pakistan I guess, what about avionics, which parts of it will be produced by PAC KAMRA?

If Pakistan is 50% owner of the JF-17, then it will get 50% of the profit (= price - cost), not revenue. Also, I expect PAF will charge a fee/commission for integration of Western avionics into JF-17.

In any case, this is all speculation. The profit-sharing details will probably remain secret between Pak-China.

Israeli defense relations with Russia, France, USA are in a different league as compared to her relations with China. Neither Russia or France are relying on any cutting edge technology from Israel, but China, has yet to reach to a point where its relationship with Israel will be equal in terms of sophisticated technologies. Whereas France (as well as other Western countries) is reluctant to deal with China, Israel is relatively open and in the near future, I don’t see China would like to let go this important collaboration.

The US pays $2 billion/year protection money to Hosni Mubarak so that he will play nice with Israel. Egypt and Israel are technically friends; the Arabs' weapons buildup is mostly against Iran. Egypt allowed Israeli ships to cross the Suez canal as a show of threat to Iran, so I don't think Israel would object to Chinese weapons sales to Egypt.

In any case, China wants to project itself as an emerging superpower, especially in the Middle East; the Chinese are not going to let Israel tell them how to run their foreign policy.
 
Israeli defense relations with Russia, France, USA are in a different league as compared to her relations with China. Neither Russia or France are relying on any cutting edge technology from Israel, but China, has yet to reach to a point where its relationship with Israel will be equal in terms of sophisticated technologies. Whereas France (as well as other Western countries) is reluctant to deal with China, Israel is relatively open and in the near future, I don’t see China would like to let go this important collaboration.


Wrong, Your statement, stands correct till the Levi- J10 show down. China and Israel were regarded as close partners and American technologies did flow through Israel to China, but those days are long over. Americans when found that Levi blue prints where transferred to china, where very un-pleased with it. Israel got its spanking from uncle Sam, and it was during the project when Israel had to draw back its hand.

We cannot see any significant military and defense deals between China and Israel after that rumble. After all how can Israel ignore its big daddy America.

More Importantly China is no more that dependent on Israel or others for its defense technologies. Long and hard hit sanctions have made sure, that they follow the path of self dependency. This has become more fruitful by the presence of good economic conditions, strong Industrial base and its skilled labor. which otherwise would have not been possible. It is no more relying on cutting edge technologies from Russia or the west specially Europe. The fact that China opted out of Russian fifth generation fighter Pakfa when offered, speak volumes of its self confidence and technological advancements.

Its important to note that China is now in the drivers seat, the world needs it more then it needs the world.

Lastly Israel as I mentioned is of negligible importance for china in this case. However the more important thing to note is how west have changed their opinion about china, recently France signed an agreement with china to Produce jet engines for Large commercial and transport Air-crafts. Spain is infurious with rest of Europe and NATO to end and uplift defense and Military sanctions on china. They clearly have realized that they are loosing badly especially in economic terms.




Yes, only a better image, nothing more than that. It was for the same better image that US never supplied the Egypt with AMRAAM; and if US wont supply Egypt with something she thinks would in anyway challenge the absolute supremacy of the IDFAF, than no other country under the US influence would. Egypt can only hope to get something like this from Russia, but the way Egypt trashed its former ally Soviet Union after the war of 1973, and fell in the lap of the US,




This part of the story is correct only in regard to US.




I don’t think Russia would be too enthusiastic to help Egypt. The Egyptian Air Force is eying on acquiring the BVR capability for decades, but it never materialized because nobody is willing to give it to them. So it is incorrect to say that the US and her Western allies have no issues with Egypt on procuring hi-tech defense hardware whereas they have them with Iran or North Korea.



Wrong again Russia will not hesitate for a second to sell them their own fighters with BVR (Talking with out BVR is naive, Egyptians dont have money into the garbage bin). I have cleared this issue in one of my earlier posts, that Russia if has no problem with Pakistan to sell the engines when we were the cause of their down fall in cold war in Afghanistan as so were they to our breakdown in 71, why would they have any issue with the harmless Egyptians?? only because they joined the western pole in 73???? Russians are know to be one hell of business people, there is a famous quote regarding them which I personally don't like," The Russians will sell their mothers for Money". To add to that, check out when they sold advance space rocket engines to America and that too during the peak of Cold war. What more examples can one give to convince you otherwise.

Same goes for France, their Mirages are still flying with Royal Egyptian Air Force. France will love to sell them their Rafaels.


The only Problem for Egypt is money, they need numbers and French or Russian fighters are a lot expensive and wont give them the required numbers. Tell me one thing, we all know J-10 is more capable then JF-17, why isn't Egypt buying that ????



The days of BVR AAMs resting in the Exclusive Members Club arsenal is long over . New players have emerged in the Market, and they are playing their game rightly. The west monopoly has been broken , they have to play their game right or would be soon out of it. some Like France and Spain has realized and are more then willing to swim along the flow rather to move in the opposite direction.





China is more than willing to supply with SD-10 is yet to be seen; as of now, there is only a news of selling some JF-17s and a possibility of having a production line in Egypt.

This is naive, why would some one like to buy the teeth less thunders????? Just to change their old air frames or to get good targets for practice to the enemy???




China would sell SD-10 through Pakistan is also not possible; China is far independent and sovereign a country than Pakistan who is capable of cutting deals while ignoring American and Western concerns, Pakistan…..




Correct, and no difference of opinion on that. My example was just an assumption to your wrong perception of the picture which I assumed correct just to make you understand. In this post I have cleared china's Importance in this game.


I do not have to say more on Pakistan’s independence and sovereignty; you are intelligent enough to figure it out.



This satirical statement, although true , does not deserve any place in this discussion.



You can not equate the sale of a Russian jet engine to Pakistan via China with the sale of a BVR AAM to Egypt via Pakistan. I would have bought your point if Pakistan was acquiring R-77 or S-300/400 from Russia via China, and Indian voice was ignored.


Why not, Russian and Pakistan have fought wars with each other, on other hand Pakistan enjoys good relationship with both Egypt and offcourse China. Same goes for china and Egypt.

I am am amazed a well qualified poster like you is raising issues not more worth then 2 pennies. Tell me was R-77 in the presence of SD10 more important to the project or the Engine??? Which Item should be considered project critical???


For S-300 why should Pakistan buy it when a Cheaper alternative HQ-9 is available??? And more important then that why hasn't Pakistan bought HQ-9 so far??? The answer is simple ,,, Its just matter of priority.

If want more, please check out Russian articles in our Inventory, what does Mi-17 sound like??? And don't forget to reed T-80/84 UDs history.





Unlike you, I would be surprised if MiCA finds its way to Egypt at least not until Israel is ready to counter that threat.



That is a weak comment , just a gut feeling nothing more. Recent Developments on the international stage are pointing in the other direction and contrary to what you say.




There is no question why JF-17 is an attractive choice for many customers, but supplying every Air Force with SD-10 is not going to happen.



May be right, not every air force is going to get it, but Egypt's case is different, they are not every other Air force, they are possible the biggest foreign customer, which makes them very significant, and its their prime need. Jf-17 with out SD-10 is worth less to them. I need not to say more I have already elaborated it.




Its an assumption at best if we think that JF-17 will be able to have a monopoly on the market of its class of fighters in the third world. The selling of Su-30 to countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia and Grippen to Thailand should serve as an eye opener.


Su30 have been their for decades now, but what about JF-17??? Its a baby which is just putting down its first step in the Market. Give it some time and it will wipe out the SU 30, from the poor Third World.

Malaysia is a rich country they can have any air craft they want, from any corner of the world.



As a Pakistani, I wish all the best for the JF-17 program, but its selling to a number of countries would no way prove a slam dunk as many are prophesizing.

You are a great debater and a respectable one, Criticism is good but when done in the right context with right information. The approach is more pessimistic in this case, where it should be optimistic to bring life to critical thoughts.






:pakistan::china:



Adios
 
oh adeos come on yar chill you are replying aggressively to everyone as if you are a marketing agent of JF-17.lol

Hahahaha:lol::lol: good one, I wouldn't mind that Job if offered:lol::lol: As a matter of fact I would be proud of it.


How ever if you look through chronology the past few posts were direct replies to my posts which thus were directed to me, had to answer them for that matter.


Beside i want some one else to take mine and taimis Job in this thread, we already have been paid enough:lol:



:pakistan:


Adios
 
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