Egypt | Army Ousts Mursi govt, violence erupts | News & Discussions

[Frogman]

1. That's funny, you keep telling us justice needs to be served and that officials are responsible for clashes on the ground between supporters of each side. So since you're so just. Hold the other side accountable as well. And the magnitude does matter, we don't know if those killed were deliberately killed on June 30th and which sides they were from. You gave us a military link to the deaths. When 600 protesters were killed in one day deliberately then you should hold them accountable. Instead of pointing fingers at a previous date and making a retarded argument. Or is your justification that the masses somehow approve of mass murder so nothing should be done? How stupid that does that? So the vast majority of Egyptians are monsters?

I still have no idea why you are attacking me or think I somehow represent the current regime. Again, read the last paragraph of post #3804 or any other post. The argument I'm trying to get across is that there are no 'good' sides in Egypt just as there are no 'victims' (talking about leaderships and organizations not individuals). I still don't know why you can't understand my views.

Provide evidence paid 'thugs' were used and don't give me a military source.

I'm sorry if you don't know about the 'baltagiya' and how the central security forces use them. This has been going on for years. A quick Google search will come up with some answers.

This is a report from the 2011 revolution:

Thugs-for-Hire Leave Mark on Protests, Egyptians Say - WSJ.com

Proof? Everybody was reporting about the sudden change just 24 hours later.

We are communicating from across the Atlantic ocean in a matter of seconds (if not less). With the worlds press on the ground and every one looking in it would be surprising if no one noticed what happened especially when a regime is about to come down. It fell way before the military even intervened. The series of ministerial resignations before the 3rd of July sealed the governments fate (as did Morsi's speech).

And the gulf countries were anti MB and started shipping oil as soon as the coup started.

So Egypt was in need of fuel. Because you mentioned previously that fuel was withheld internally by the military to ferment revolution but this in itself proves otherwise. Conspiracy or not weak leadership and management can't be excused.

Where am I insulting Egyptians? Do you have problems with reading comprehension? I clearly stated that these things could have been avoided but military pushed for it to pressure the MB over time.

I know your argument very well. You start by admitting the MB government did make minor mistakes but they should be excused of those mistakes because the military and the 'deep state' worked against them because they wanted the 'seculars', 'liberals', and 'Copts' to rule. Then I ask you if there's proof of this and you don't answer but when I make an accusation you demand proof and tell me not to cite 'military sources'. So its my turn, provide evidence of the military or the deep state withholding supplies and fuel which aren't from 'MB sources'. While you're at it provide proof that the coup was done in coordination with foreign nations.

So? They were voted in by the people.

Didn't say otherwise.

Liberals got 30% of the seats? MB had 47% and the Nour party had about 30% and they have different ideas then the MB and are even against them as we seen in the coup.

They were in an informal coalition when the house was first elected then the Nour party were alienated by the MB which eventually led to them parting ways a few months after. A number of factors lead to that, including the normalization of ties with Iran.

How so did they not have any influence? I'm not doing your work for you back your statements up.

They couldn't influence legislation within the lower house because they had a tiny number of seats compared with the Islamist block and the Democratic Alliance of Egypt. So without they ability to reject legislation or pass it then how could they influence it? street protests to pressure the executive or legislature to listen.

When the lower house was disbanded most of the powers were transferred to the elected president and then the amount of influence they had was cut further as they could only put pressure through street protests.

Why are you telling me I shouldn't back them up? They have a large history.

Because they are traitors, just like the military brass and the previous regimes remnants. They may have not betrayed the nation but they betrayed the revolution. Their history means nothing to me.

Of course I recognized mistakes they made in the past couple years but not all blame lies on them.

They were the government, that's what happens. Mistakes isn't what got them overthrown.

As I've said, minority secularists and liberals wanted too much influence of their own which was unrealistic.

So, what?

And I'm not backing them up just because I agree with them ideologically.

Then why.

On the contrary, you're doing so, whatever the coptic church says you roll with it.

You think I'm a Copt?

You think I would allow religion to have a say in my life or views

You are no better than a Copt who listens to his Church, after all you would do the same if your beloved Imam told you to support something or not.

 

[Falcon29]

1. Not attacking you

2. I know that occurred during the 2011 revolution against Mubarak. I'm asking you to support your claim it occurred with Morsi when he didn't need to do so at all since at the same time you claim he was 'working' with the military.

3. I was there 12 days before the coup, I saw the long waits for fuel. Except that there was a very easy way around it. The black market was one way, then connections with the military were other. My taxi driver confused me and pulled up to a large factory like military building with soldiers guarding all entrances. Only to find in the back two large fuel trucks at a great price fueling up or vehicle. It was a game being played.

4. Okay

5. It's more like because they're power hungry salafists. I'm a person that's known salafists for who they are for a while now.

6. How is 30% a tiny percentage? And either way, it's what the masses wanted? They voted them in right? So if we go by your ways, you're gonna have to settle that with the people of Egypt. Not to mention the other party also votes alongside them. And there were many meetings conducted to hear out their concerns and they rejected many things and had unrealistic ideas. Not my fault for liberals acting like Pharaohs.

7. You don't understand politics in your nation, everything was being done to try to relegate the elected party useless. They had no other choice then to secure their spot in some areas or else we know what would have happened long before they even got to govern.

8. Okay.

9. So what? It's unrealistic. They don't represent the majority of the Egyptian people.

10. Look at history, they have always sided with their people and with their Muslim neighbors. They are against a corrupt military which is something very crucial in Egypt. They wanted something different. Nothing you have today is any different.

11. What imam? There are thousands of imams I could be exposed to around the world. I don't take the word of anybody just for saying they are right on a issue. I'm feel into politics. And some Imam's are correct on some issues. As for Copts, I usually don't have problems with Arabic Christians but it's something about the Copts. Their leaders constantly used to belittle our Prophet and their people are dirty when it comes down to opposing anything muslim regardless of whether they are a better option or not. I'm sure that's who you are too but you don't show it on the forum.

 

[Falcon29]

Protesters hit Cairo's Tahrir on anniversary of deaths | JPost | Israel News

CAIRO - Hundreds of Egyptians gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square on Tuesday to commemorate the deaths of protesters killed two years ago and call for reforms, with many voicing rare criticism of the powerful military.

Supporters of army chief General Abdel Fatah al-Sisi, who promised stability and free elections when he overthrew elected Islamist President Mohamed Morsi in July, also showed up at Tahrir but were chased away by activists.

.............

 

[Solomon2]

OPINIONS

David Ignatius
Opinion Writer
In Egypt, a spring of discontent
By David Ignatius, Published: November 13 E-mail the writer
MENOUFIA, Egypt

A year ago, the Muslim Brotherhood’s leaders in this region of the Nile Delta seemed confident that they owned the future. But then came the military coup on July 3 that toppled President Mohamed Morsi and killed hundreds of his supporters.

The story of this tumultuous counterrevolution is clarified by a visit to this town in the heart of the delta. You encounter an odd combination of a bottom-up popular rejection of the Brotherhood and a top-down military putsch. I was happy to hear demands for citizens’ rights, even amid the cheers for the generals. But it’s fair to say that the basic problem of this region — not enough jobs for a rapidly expanding population — hasn’t improved at all.

The Muslim Brotherhood leadership here has disappeared, into prison or hiding. Their headquarters on Nasser Street has been converted into a commercial day-care center. A few blocks away, the offices of the Brotherhood’s political wing, the Freedom and Justice Party, have been taken over by an interior design firm. There’s a spooky feeling that Brotherhood members have become “unpersons,” not seen or discussed.

Mohammed Mansour, a 21-year-old business student whose cousin is a Brotherhood supporter, explained why Morsi has so little support now: “The Muslim Brotherhood is an organization that operates in the dark. When they were given the opportunity to operate in the light, they failed.”

To get a sense of what political activists here think, I contacted local members of a leftist group called the April 6 movement, which helped power the 2011 Tahrir Square revolution that toppled Hosni Mubarak. A year ago, they talked loudly outdoors along a Nile canal, denouncing Morsi. This time, they asked to meet inside a cafe on Talaat Harb Street. But they proved to be as outspoken as ever — especially in warning against continued military rule.

“Most people here hated the Brotherhood and Morsi,” argued Mohammed Kamal, a computer teacher at a local high school. But he’s worried that Gen. Abdel Fatah al-Sissi, who led the coup (spoken of here as a popular “revolution”), will decide to run for president next year and “a military uniform will enter the presidential palace again,” in a reprise of Mubarak. “We appreciate what Sissi has done in getting rid of the Muslim Brotherhood. But the army is there to protect, not to rule.”

Mostafa Ibrahim, a 49-year-old lawyer who heads the local chapter of the liberal al-Dostour Party, said he had recently gone to the local governor and admonished him: “Nothing will change unless you change the people under you.” The “faloul,” or remnants of the Mubarak regime, still hold many key positions.

These activists conceded that they were in the minority and that, if Sissi decided to run, he would get 90 percent of the vote. “People are tired of disorder,” said Kamal. “They want to get on with their lives.”

What happened during the year of Morsi’s rule helps explain why the Islamists lost support. The Brotherhood tried to install a member as governor late last year, but he lasted only three months. There was an interim period of no governor, and then they tried again to install their own man in June. He never could get to his office because of daily protests outside. Meanwhile, Brotherhood members began using local services such as distribution of butane gas to win political patronage.

Under the Brotherhood, “There was no clear plan for development of Menoufia. There was no investment, no visits by ministers, no opening of new factories. You could feel a sense of stagnation,” said Mohammed el-Shamy, a reporter for Akhbar el-Yom newspaper.

When I visited here a year ago, Badr el-Falah, a local Brotherhood member of parliament, talked of economic development — but without any specifics. He disappeared after June 30 and “nobody has heard of him,” said Shamy with a shrug.

As discontent with Morsi increased last spring, the Tamarod movement began circulating petitions calling for Morsi’s removal. According to Ibrahim, the petition was signed by 2.6 million people, or more than half of Menoufia’s 4.5 million residents. The group claims it obtained 22 million signatures across Egypt.

Since the generals stepped in, security here is better and “people are happier and more relaxed,” said Kamal. But there are no new jobs — and that’s the core problem.

Mansour said he has no idea what to do when he graduates, except try to emigrate: “The person who graduates in Menoufia doesn’t get a job in Menoufia. He gets on a bus.”

Read more from David Ignatius’s archive, follow him on Twitter or subscribe to his updates on Facebook.

 

[Frogman]

I know that occurred during the 2011 revolution against Mubarak. I'm asking you to support your claim it occurred with Morsi when he didn't need to do so at all since at the same time you claim he was 'working' with the military.

I misunderstood your reply. I thought you were inquiring about whether these actions happened in the first place. Egyptian president Mohamed Morsi Archives « Now The End Begins

The source is crappy but its the best I could get to without sifting through hundreds of Google search pages. The most high profile person tortured by MB members was a former Egyptian Ambassador to Venezuela.

Actually, these are probably better.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/evidence-of-torture-by-egyptian-islamists/?_r=0

CairoGate: Egyptian Diplomat Survives MB Torture Says "It was like a Nazi camp" - Cynthia Farahat

Ill dig more and find the actual MB member who was in charge of this, I forgot his name. The day after this people were actually killed in clashes.

I was there 12 days before the coup, I saw the long waits for fuel. Except that there was a very easy way around it. The black market was one way, then connections with the military were other. My taxi driver confused me and pulled up to a large factory like military building with soldiers guarding all entrances. Only to find in the back two large fuel trucks at a great price fueling up or vehicle. It was a game being played.

See, this makes no difference to me. If the military was withholding fuel to ferment revolution or discontent then the government should have had enough sense to be transparent about it. There is no excuse for poor leadership or management. Simply stating there's a conspiracy or the deep state is working against me in Egypt is no longer a valid excuse for being inept.

5. It's more like because they're power hungry salafists. I'm a person that's known salafists for who they are for a while now.

Not arguing they aren't power hungry. There were genuine grievances for the rift between them though.

How is 30% a tiny percentage? And either way, it's what the masses wanted? They voted them in right? So if we go by your ways, you're gonna have to settle that with the people of Egypt.

30% is a small percentage if the entire house is dominated by the Islamist Block and the Democratic blah blah (FJP and other parties). You can't pass through legislation or halt it without support from the latter two. The only way you can be influential is if there were divisions between or within parties and they had to rely on you to pass legislation or reject it.

The opposition was primarily focused on the constitution and that shouldn't have been affected by who was elected or not. Both houses were actually quite useless. They didn't pass a single piece of useful legislation.

Not to mention the other party also votes alongside them. And there were many meetings conducted to hear out their concerns and they rejected many things and had unrealistic ideas. Not my fault for liberals acting like Pharaohs.

Pharaohs get a bad rap, man. How they actually behaved and how they have been perceived to behave are totally different because of a single fantastical story. You should read up on it. Its quite riveting.

So what? It's unrealistic. They don't represent the majority of the Egyptian people.

Can you mention a few of these unrealistic demands, please?

You seriously believe the MB represented or represents the majority of Egyptian people?

Look at history, they have always sided with their people and with their Muslim neighbors. They are against a corrupt military which is something very crucial in Egypt. They wanted something different. Nothing you have today is any different.

The different they wanted was not the different the nation wanted. Rather than trying to change the fabric of the nation they should have focused on governing and progressing. That is what angered people the most. How could they side with the people of a nation when they are an international organization which doesn't believe in nations in the first place.

What imam? There are thousands of imams I could be exposed to around the world. I don't take the word of anybody just for saying they are right on a issue.

As do Copts. The Coptic community has a variety of different preachers to which they can be exposed, they are not one living body.

Their leaders constantly used to belittle our Prophet and their people are dirty when it comes down to opposing anything muslim regardless of whether they are a better option or not.

Have you interacted with all 10 million Egyptian Copts?

The same could be said of (some) Islamic scholars and Muslims themselves by those who wish to stereotype people. The Coptic Church is right next to the Mosque in my village and everyone knows each other and theres no religious animosity whatsoever.

I'm sure that's who you are too but you don't show it on the forum.

Refer to post #8 the penultimate paragraph.
Russians 'send in big guns to sell arms to Egypt'

I come from a Muslim family BTW.

 

[Falcon29]

Okay habibi, this is getting nowhere. So we'll just end it here and this thread doesn't mean much anymore. Except until the 'trial' goes on or something significant occurs.

Let's wait and see.

 

[islamrules]

11 years for 22 protesters , 22 young innocent girls

the guy taking the wheel is the stupid fasiq judge who sentenced them, u can read "Tamarud" on that white cap, how can one trust a judge like that !!!

 

[mahatir]

You should seriously stop bringing Hamas into everything, its annoying. I don't care whether Morsi collaborated with the organization or not. It's not as important to me as other issues are.

My conclusions are as follows:

• This was carried out by someone from the MB for a few reasons:

• The target was not a high profile one. Therefore the probability of him being targeted coincidentally by Ansar Albeit Almoqades (or any other organisation) is extremely low. Whoever killed this man knew exactly who he was and what he was working on.

• Given the cases he was working on its safe to assume he was tasked with similar cases against the MB for the past decade or more. That means he was probably in contact (voluntary or not) with several MB leaders and members. This has happened several times since the MB took power. The most high profile case was Abushaqra's who was on the security detail for Khairat Alshater (when under arrest and imprisonment before the revolution) and a member of the national security's counter terrorist teams.

(Just for you) Hamas had nothing to do with this.

I could be totally wrong. On first impressions this is what I see though. This could have been coincedental but it could be the start of a wave of targeted assassinations against those working on sensitive cases.

Ansar Almoqdas is actually a Palestinian group from gaza financed by MB and trained by Hamas .

Hamas and majority of the clowns living in Gaza think Egyptians are infidels , Just keep those tunnels shut they are not worth it .

Ha Ha Ha! Because you're UAE government arrested over a hundred Egyptian innocents accusing them of trying to overthrow the government you're telling me they interfere with your affairs. The UAE threatened for no reason at all to cut work for Egyptians in their country after the MB got in power and Saudi Arabia and the UAE directly intervened in Egypt's affairs by messing around with the oil supplies to Egypt in coordination with the Egyptian military and also supporting opposition protests. For no good reason.

I like you both. But, you need stop acting powerful and power hungry, it's disgusting. This is what corrupted your people. If you knew how much dating and zina went on in your countries you'd be shocked. It's annoying as hell how some Saudis try to embrace European culture just because they have the money to do so. The innocent people here are the Yemenis. Whom I favor out of gulf arabs. As a people's, not as government.

And remember this stuff went out of the window when Saddam attacked KSA don't make remember what happened.

UAE arrested MB members not Egyptians , the MBs hate Egypt and Egyptians, for them it is Just a country where they piss and eat , many times MB members burned Egyptian flags and called Egyptians infidels .

 

[Frogman]

11 years for 22 protesters , 22 young innocent girls

the guy taking the wheel is the stupid fasiq judge who sentenced them, u can read "Tamarud" on that white cap, how can one trust a judge like that !!!

Just to make things clearer. Each of the accused has been given a sentence of six months either in prison or in a juvenile detention, the combined total of all sentences is 11 years. With good behaviour they should be out in a couple of months.

 

[hussain0216]

Beyond disgusting

Filthy secular liberal Egyptians have lost their minds

 

[Doritos11]

Beyond disgusting

Filthy secular liberal Egyptians have lost their minds

That’s not filthy that’s equal treatment, now how do you like it ? You belong in the jail as well for some time, experience equal treatment, but not with the girls, we can’t trust you with with them.

 

[islamrules]

That’s not filthy that’s equal treatment, now how do you like it ? You belong in the jail as well for some time, experience equal treatment, but not with the girls, we can’t trust you with with them.

u belong under the boots of the mujahedines

 

[Doritos11]

u belong under the boots of the mujahedines

Too bad for you they wear flip flops not boots.

 

[mahatir]

Too bad for you they wear flip flops not boots.

LOL I never realised that point

 

[xenon54 out]

Beyond disgusting

Filthy secular liberal Egyptians have lost their minds

As if beeing secular leads to violance...
The biggest problem of ME today is the violance from people calling themselves ''religious'' isnt it?

Anyways im against every form of violance and injustice be it ''secular'' or ''religious''.