Egypt | Army Ousts Mursi govt, violence erupts | News & Discussions

[Falcon29]

Egypt: Many Protesters Shot in Head or Chest | Human Rights Watch

(London) – Many of the at least 74 pro-Morsy protesters killed in clashes with Egypt’s riot police and plain clothed men who stood alongside were shot in the head or chest. They were killed on July 27 over a period of several hours during clashes on a road near the Muslim Brotherhood’s sit-in at Rabaa al-Adawiya in eastern Cairo.

Human Rights Watch interviewed seven witnesses to the violence and reviewed extensive video footage of the events. Medical staff interviewed by Human Rights Watch judged some of the deaths to be targeted killings because the position of the shots would likely result in death.

The violence came hours after Interim President Adly Mansour announced, “the state has to impose order by all force and decisiveness.” The same day, Interior Minister Gen. Mohammed Ibrahim warned that security forces would be clearing pro-Morsy sit-ins from Rabaa and Nahda squares “soon.”

Protesters were shot and killed over a period of at least six hours, during clashes with Central Security Forces (riot police) on a major Cairo road. Human Rights Watch was in the field hospital as many of the dead and wounded were brought in, and was told by medical staff that the “majority of the bullet injuries were to the head, neck, and chest.” Four doctors interviewed said that the angle of gunshot wounds indicated they were shot from above.

The Ministry of Health announced that at least 74 civilians died in the morning’s violence. At a press conference earlier that day, the minister of interior insisted that “We never, as police, pointed any firearms at the chest of any demonstrator.”

“The use of deadly fire on such a scale so soon after the interim president announced the need to impose order by force suggests a shocking willingness by the police and by certain politicians to ratchet up violence against pro-Morsy protesters,” said Nadim Houry, deputy Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “It is almost impossible to imagine that so many killings would take place without an intention to kill, or at least a criminal disregard for people’s lives.”

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It proves Al Sissi is not a dog of the westerners except Russia who don't invade arab countries

You idiot you're pro Sisi now? His whole top military brass is bought by the West. Who are you joking!?

 

[elis]

Come on he doesn't speak to Obama when this terrorist phone him.

The arabs are very proud of Al Sissi despising the powerful americans

 

[Mahmoud_EGY]

 

[Frogman]

Home> International
Egypt: Gunmen Kill Senior Security Officer
CAIRO November 18, 2013 (AP)
By SARAH EL DEEB Associated Press

Unknown gunmen shot and killed a senior national security officer in Cairo late Sunday as he headed to his office, the Interior Ministry said.

A statement from the ministry said gunmen opened fire on a car carrying Lt. Col. Mohammed Mabrouk of the national security agency, killing him on the spot near his home in the eastern Cairo suburb of Nasr City. Mabrouk worked in the agency's branch in charge of monitoring Islamist groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, a security official familiar with Mabrouk's work said.

Mabrouk is one of the most senior security officers to be targeted and killed in Cairo during the violence that has gripped Egypt since the ouster of Islamist President Mohammed Morsi in July.

The security official said Mabrouk was hit by seven bullets in his chest and head fired by gunmen whom witnesses described as masked. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.

The country has seen persistent violence since the coup that removed Morsi after days of mass protests against the country's first democratically elected president. There have been bloody crackdowns on pro-Morsi protests, retaliatory violence blamed on Islamists, and an escalation of attacks by Islamic militants on Coptic Christian churches, security forces and the military, mainly in the Sinai Peninsula.

The government had imposed a state of emergency and nighttime curfew since mid-August, and only lifted it last Thursday.

The military and police have been waging a counterinsurgency against Islamic militants in northern Sinai, and the unrest has increasingly moved closer to the capital.

In September, the interior minister, who heads the security forces, survived a suicide car bombing shortly after he left his home in the same neighborhood where Mabrouk was killed.

Egypt: Gunmen Kill Senior Security Officer - ABC News

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Mabrouk was one of the officials working on the following cases:

• The escape of prisoners (specifically Mohammed Morsi) from Wadi Alnatroon prison.
• The alleged collaboration between Mohammed Morsi and Gazan Islamist organization Hamas.
• A case involving a terrorist cell which was captured last year after violent firefights in Cairo.
• Tracking down and arresting MB leaders.

Gather your own conclusions.

 

[Falcon29]

How about you tell us what you concluded. I dare you to blame Hamas.

 

[Frogman]

How about you tell us what you concluded. I dare you to blame Hamas.

You should seriously stop bringing Hamas into everything, its annoying. I don't care whether Morsi collaborated with the organization or not. It's not as important to me as other issues are.

My conclusions are as follows:

• This was carried out by someone from the MB for a few reasons:

• The target was not a high profile one. Therefore the probability of him being targeted coincidentally by Ansar Albeit Almoqades (or any other organisation) is extremely low. Whoever killed this man knew exactly who he was and what he was working on.

• Given the cases he was working on its safe to assume he was tasked with similar cases against the MB for the past decade or more. That means he was probably in contact (voluntary or not) with several MB leaders and members. This has happened several times since the MB took power. The most high profile case was Abushaqra's who was on the security detail for Khairat Alshater (when under arrest and imprisonment before the revolution) and a member of the national security's counter terrorist teams.

(Just for you) Hamas had nothing to do with this.

I could be totally wrong. On first impressions this is what I see though. This could have been coincedental but it could be the start of a wave of targeted assassinations against those working on sensitive cases.

 

[Falcon29]

You should seriously stop bringing Hamas into everything, its annoying. I don't care whether Morsi collaborated with the organization or not. It's not as important to me as other issues are.

My conclusions are as follows:

• This was carried out by someone from the MB for a few reasons:

• The target was not a high profile one. Therefore the probability of him being targeted coincidentally by Ansar Albeit Almoqades (or any other organisation) is extremely low. Whoever killed this man knew exactly who he was and what he was working on.

• Given the cases he was working on its safe to assume he was tasked with similar cases against the MB for the past decade or more. That means he was probably in contact (voluntary or not) with several MB leaders and members. This has happened several times since the MB took power. The most high profile case was Abushaqra's who was on the security detail for Khairat Alshater (when under arrest and imprisonment before the revolution) and a member of the national security's counter terrorist teams.

(Just for you) Hamas had nothing to do with this.

I could be totally wrong. On first impressions this is what I see though. This could have been coincedental but it could be the start of a wave of targeted assassinations against those working on sensitive cases.

Then you should stop bringing Hamas into everything. It's getting really annoying. And whatever 'collaboration' with Hamas means making it appear as if the MB committed a heinous crime.

It's not too difficult understanding what is occurring here. The Egyptian government collectively punishes and persecutes MB members and supporters and censors them from voicing their opinions as Egyptian citizens also preventing them from functioning.

This has been done by shooting down protestors and killing them in thousands. Was admitted to by Egyptian military general.

In return, it radicalized some anti government activists who felt an urge to target Egyptian security mobs and military bases in frustration.

Still, the vast majority of the demonstrations are overwhelmingly peaceful but that doesn't have an affect on the dictator government who only supports democracy that suits them. The people that side with them are free to do as they wish and aren't labeled as 'terrorists'.

We've seen bizarre things, like student protesters being sentenced to 17 years recently, an Egyptian comedian being suspended from air for joking about the military, an Egyptian soccer player suspended from his team for holding 4 fingers in support of the opposition.

Yet you still try to make them appear as fair and try to present this in a professional manner.

 

[Frogman]

Then you should stop bringing Hamas into everything. It's getting really annoying. And whatever 'collaboration' with Hamas means making it appear as if the MB committed a heinous crime.

I don't, I barely mention Hamas. The only reason I mentioned it here is because he was working on a case that allegedly involves Hamas. The MB has already committed a series of heinous crimes, adding to them wouldn't be a problem.

It's not too difficult understanding what is occurring here. The Egyptian government collectively punishes and persecutes MB members and supporters and censors them from voicing their opinions as Egyptian citizens also preventing them from functioning.

It's not only the Egyptian government that prevents MB supporters from functioning, the majority of Egyptians continue to clash with them. The security forces in most cases are no longer needed to disperse the MB's small protests the families of the areas in which they protest do so without being asked.

This has been done by shooting down protestors and killing them in thousands. Was admitted to by Egyptian military general.

The numbers are exaggerated. The MB are not victims in this political conflict, they are as guilty as the security forces and military in the killing of protesters and in getting their own supporters killed. If the roles were reversed the MB would have had no problem in cracking down on protesters in Tahrir or anywhere else. There are no victims in Egypt and if there was then they are already several feet under the ground.

In return, it radicalized some anti government activists who felt an urge to target Egyptian security mobs and military bases in frustration.

There is no justification for killing.

Still, the vast majority of the demonstrations are overwhelmingly peaceful but that doesn't have an affect on the dictator government who only supports democracy that suits them.

The peaceful demonstrations are dealt with in the same manner, peacefully by the security forces. The MB also had the same concept of democracy, please don't think the brotherhood are in any way liberal democrats. Every single action they took while in power shows otherwise.

The people that side with them are free to do as they wish and aren't labeled as 'terrorists'.

Because they aren't. Nobody is targeting and executing civilian activists in their homes or continue to protest violently or otherwise in order to coerce the nation into returning a President no one wants but them. The majority of MB supporters are peaceful, however, they do not condemn the violence perpetrated by those they support but try to justify it. In my eyes that's worse than being violent.

We've seen bizarre things, like student protesters being sentenced to 17 years recently, an Egyptian comedian being suspended from air for joking about the military, an Egyptian soccer player suspended from his team for holding 4 fingers in support of the opposition.

And these are individual cases with nuances and details that are deliberately ignored in order to frame the government as the oppressor and the MB as the liberal democratic victims. When in both cases they are as bad as each other.

Yet you still try to make them appear as fair and try to present this in a professional manner.

There is no fair or just in Egypt. Not under the previous government or under this one. Everyone has a case of selective memory or dishes out 'justice' selectively. When Egypt becomes just is the day when the entire government of today (including military brass and security forces) share the same prison cell or noose as the MB, SCAF, and Mubarak and his cronies. Then and only then will Egypt be just.

 

[Falcon29]

Okay I don't know how to split quotes like you're doing so I'm just going to number my responses in order of your responses... @Frogman

1. A case that involves Hamas? What is it? And like what crimes have the MB committed please mention to us a few.

2. The numbers are not exaggerated. The health ministry in Egypt and official political sources confirmed the death toll in that single day. While it was occurring on that day I posted somewhere here I believe a link specifically of government sources so I know I would get called out on it. And don't make a generalization. In very few cases few deaths were a result of protesters and security forces trading fire. You can't prove much. There were many demonstrations.

3. There's no justification for killing? So why where over 600 Egyptians killed in one day when the military opened fire on them for being out on the street? Or do you have a justification for that?

4. I don't think they are all liberals, but many are moderate.

5. If you want to turn this into a discussion of tit for tat violence it won't go anywhere since most is committed by security forces and worse attacks have taken place.

6. What do you mean individual cases? There's nothing more to it. Those people had their careers ruined or censored simply for expressing their opinions. Nothing can justify those actions.

7. Okay, fair point. Nothing is fair, it's more like you're either with the government or not. But, the overwhelming evidence points to anti government or pro democracy activists being targeted.

 

[Frogman]

Okay I don't know how to split quotes like you're doing so I'm just going to number my responses in order of your responses... @Frogman

On the editor bar there's quotation marks, simply click it and then copy and past the text you want into the field created by clicking the tab.

1. A case that involves Hamas? What is it? And like what crimes have the MB committed please mention to us a few.

You should look it up. I haven't been tuning into that case, I'm more interested in the cases which involved the killing of protesters at Alathidiya as well as other protests across the past few year and a bit. The killing of one man is no less or more heinous than the killing of thousands.

The numbers are not exaggerated. The health ministry in Egypt and official political sources confirmed the death toll in that single day.

The number did not exceed a thousand IIRC.

And don't make a generalization. In very few cases few deaths were a result of protesters and security forces trading fire. You can't prove much. There were many demonstrations.

I try not to make generalizations as much as possible but since we are taking in general terms rather than in minutiae it will happen. I'm not trying to prove anything, there were killings by both sides and several NGO's and human rights organizations attest to that.

3. There's no justification for killing? So why where over 600 Egyptians killed in one day when the military opened fire on them for being out on the street? Or do you have a justification for that?

I never argued that it was. If my views aren't clear to you I suggest looking at the last paragraph of my previous post again. Just a correction since we want to be accurate, the clearing of Rab3a and Alnahda was done by the security forces and not the military (that doesn't mean the military wasn't complicit in the killing of protesters in other incidents).

4. I don't think they are all liberals, but many are moderate.

That's not what I meant, you don't have to be liberal in order to be a liberal democrat. What I meant was the MB are not advocates of liberal democracy and were never committed to setting up a democratic process in Egypt.

Just a brief outline of what liberal democracy is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

5. If you want to turn this into a discussion of tit for tat violence it won't go anywhere since most is committed by security forces and worse attacks have taken place.

That's definitely not where I want this to go. The magnitude of violence isn't important to me, the presence and justification of violence from both sides is a much more important issue to me. The magnitude is down to the capabilities of those on the sides of this politcal conflict, not their willingness to inflict violence.

6. What do you mean individual cases? There's nothing more to it. Those people had their careers ruined or censored simply for expressing their opinions. Nothing can justify those actions.

Yes they did. However, the circumstances and the context under which they lost their right to free speech or career are different from case to case. For example, Bassem Youssef was suspended from CBC, now the MB and supporters argue that this was direct interference by the military in order to stop his show, however, there is more to it than that.

1. Bassem Yousseff has already targeted the SCAF when they were in power and he wasn't prosecuted or stopped from work.
2. Bassem Yousseff produced his show for ONTV before switching to CBC, ONTV being recognised as a channel that supported the revolution and CBC as one which supported the previous regime. He switched channels because it offered to expand his show bringing him and his content to a wider audience. The channel itself (its policies) was a constant source for his jokes
3. The episode which was recorded and due to be released before the show was stopped had nothing to do with the military according to the audience who watched it. The entire show was devoted to mocking CBC because of an apologetic statement released by them after the channel received public complaints.
4. Would the government or military really be stupid enough to ban his show considering they are the ones who (want people to think) believe in free speech and liberal democracy.

We or I shouldn't pander on this point too long. All I'm trying to say is that each case had its own context and circumstances, some involved zero governmental influence, while others did or may have.

7. Okay, fair point. Nothing is fair, it's more like you're either with the government or not. But, the overwhelming evidence points to anti government or pro democracy activists being targeted.

They simply aren't pro-democracy.

 

[Falcon29]

You know this is easier forget the quote thing. @Frogman

1. Yeah, individuals should be prosecuted. Not MB leaders and President of Egyot who only got accused of 'incitement' to be put behind bars. Yet there's no accountability for 600 plus dead in one day. I know you don't deny that happened.

2. Okay

3. Okay so you're justifying it by calling it a 'clearing' and claiming it was done by security force. That's true. Still a massacre.

4. Liberal democracy in western nations is a whole different idea. Moot point.

5. Okay

 

[Frogman]

1. Yeah, individuals should be prosecuted. Not MB leaders and President of Egyot who only got accused of 'incitement' to be put behind bars. Yet there's no accountability for 600 plus dead in one day. I know you don't deny that happened.

Individuals who committed the acts and their leadership. The MB is a hierarchical organization, the decision to clear the Alatahdiya protests (among others) came from the top and wasn't a spontaneous move by the ousted presidents supporters. The MB leadership are in no way innocent. There won't be accountability for those who died at Rab3a and Alnahda unless the whole of Egyptian society changes its mentality of all or nothing. The Brotherhood will not bring justice nor will the military, only the true revolutionaries who continue their fight can. Whether they succeed in an evolutionary manner or through revolution is yet to be seen.

3. Okay so you're justifying it by calling it a 'clearing' and claiming it was done by security force. That's true. Still a massacre.

No, I'm calling it a clearing because that was the definition of the operation conducted, the clearing of a site. I'm not justifying it and it was carried out by the central security forces and the police, the only military presence was that of a bulldozer.

Liberal democracy in western nations is a whole different idea. Moot point.

Not at all. The 2011 revolution had three main goals, bread (meaning life, 3ish), freedom, and social justice. The framework under which these goals would be achieved was agreed upon by all, a liberal democratic system under which the views of all are tolerated and respected. Now, this doesn't mean the objective was to emulate western nations, many things would be different but the central thinking is what counted. The MB had no intention of setting up a liberal democratic nation, they view democracy as a means to power and in gaining power they ignored and disrespected all opposing views as well as ignoring minorities all together.

 

[Falcon29]

Individuals who committed the acts and their leadership. The MB is a hierarchical organization, the decision to clear the Alatahdiya protests (among others) came from the top and wasn't a spontaneous move by the ousted presidents supporters. The MB leadership are in no way innocent. There won't be accountability for those who died at Rab3a and Alnahda unless the whole of Egyptian society changes its mentality of all or nothing. The Brotherhood will not bring justice nor will the military, only the true revolutionaries who continue their fight can. Whether they succeed in an evolutionary manner or through revolution is yet to be seen.



No, I'm calling it a clearing because that was the definition of the operation conducted, the clearing of a site. I'm not justifying it and it was carried out by the central security forces and the police, the only military presence was that of a bulldozer.



Not at all. The 2011 revolution had three main goals, bread (meaning life, 3ish), freedom, and social justice. The framework under which these goals would be achieved was agreed upon by all, a liberal democratic system under which the views of all are tolerated and respected. Now, this doesn't mean the objective was to emulate western nations, many things would be different but the central thinking is what counted. The MB had no intention of setting up a liberal democratic nation, they view democracy as a means to power and in gaining power they ignored and disrespected all opposing views as well as ignoring minorities all together.

1. Which protest are you speaking of? Never heard of that maybe you spelled something wrong. There won't be accountability? It seems every single member of the MB is being held accountable for nothing, has nothing to do with protests at all. The government just wants to get rid of the all organization and take away their rights.

2. Done by security forces ordered by the military. The military is completely responsible. It's funny that those security forces were nowhere to be found to prevent clashes when the MB was in power. It was all a part of the coup. Same will the shortage of oil. So don't tell me it's the people's will. I was in Egypt before and after the ousting. Suddenly oil was everywhere and suddenly the military started to do its job.

3. I'm not going to say the MB didn't make mistakes. But, they literally did everything the opposition wanted and it became clear the opposing parties and parliament members wanted to take over everything so that the elected party would have no representatives at all to make any decision regarding the country. That's basically just allowing the military representatives to make all decisions and new constitution making nothing different then the previous government and making very corrupt still.

 

[Frogman]

Which protest are you speaking of? Never heard of that maybe you spelled something wrong.

Egypt protest: Morsi advisors resign amidst reports of killings in Cairo violence — RT News

Alithadiya is the area surrounding Egypt's primary presidential palace. The report above is from the start of those events. Look the MB regime did kill people, using both its supporters and the state security forces. The magnitude doesn't matter, what matters is that people died and justice must be served to all no matter their position or views.

A list of people who died on the 30th of June:

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/577293_427723793995487_620644548_n.jpg

There won't be accountability? It seems every single member of the MB is being held accountable for nothing, has nothing to do with protests at all. The government just wants to get rid of the all organization and take away their rights.

And that's something you have to take up with the government and the masses that support such measures.

Done by security forces ordered by the military. The military is completely responsible.

Not arguing otherwise.

It's funny that those security forces were nowhere to be found to prevent clashes when the MB was in power.

That's simply not true. The security forces were always there to clear protests in cooperation with Morsi supporters. The police and security forces had once relied on paid thugs to help them clear protests but in Morsi's term unpaid and willing supporters of the ousted president helped them. The security forces have gone back to using paid thugs now but to a lesser extent than before the first revolution and SCAF rule.

It was all a part of the coup. Same will the shortage of oil. So don't tell me it's the people's will. I was in Egypt before and after the ousting. Suddenly oil was everywhere and suddenly the military started to do its job.

If there was concrete proof of that then it should have been provided. The truth is that the MB appointed inexperienced and feckless ministers just because they were loyal and showed their loyalty by running Mr. Morsi's presidential campaign. They had no clue what they were doing. Secondly, don't insult and patronize the Egyptian people by suggesting they filled the streets in their millions gathering in protest against the MB because of fuel and electricity shortages.

I'm not going to say the MB didn't make mistakes.

Mistakes is an understatement.

But, they literally did everything the opposition wanted and it became clear the opposing parties and parliament members wanted to take over everything so that the elected party would have no representatives at all to make any decision regarding the country.

​

That's preposterous. Firstly, the MB had a clear overall majority in the lower house of Parliament in coalition with the Alnour party, they could push through anything they wanted. Secondly, the majority of the upper house was comprised of Islamist's (MB and Alnour). So, in Parliament they had complete freedom to legislate.

When the lower house was disbanded by the constitutional court (because one third of it was elected using a different method than the rest) the majority of their powers went to the elected president. The opposition had zero power to influence legislation or policy without mass demonstrations.

What did Morsi or the MB concede to the opposition?

A body that represented all Egyptians to draw up the new constitution which the opposition argued should have happened before elections?

The body was dominated by Islamists and so minorities couldn't get what they wanted (majority vote used to agree or disagree on articles) in their own constitution and some left the body.

The disbanding of the body as several factions pulled out and the creation of a new one?

No. The body went on to create Egypt's worst ever constitution and one that was illegitimate.

This was all before the presidential/constitutional decree which if you don't know about then you need to look up because the day that decree was issued was the day Morsi lost his legitimacy, coincidentally it was a day after talks with said opposition and the decree wasn't even mentioned.

That's basically just allowing the military representatives to make all decisions and new constitution making nothing different then the previous government and making very corrupt still.

It wasn't the opposition that was working with the military but the MB. You should look up the relationship between Tantawi and the MB before and after elections. You're backing the wrong horse here, even if you agree with them ideologically. Oh yeaah, who was it again that said the interest charged by the IMF on their loans were administrative fees? I'm pretty sure that's Riba and as we know that same someone said that he would not dabble in such Haram matters.

 

[Falcon29]

1. That's funny, you keep telling us justice needs to be served and that officials are responsible for clashes on the ground between supporters of each side. So since you're so just. Hold the other side accountable as well. And the magnitude does matter, we don't know if those killed were deliberately killed on June 30th and which sides they were from. You gave us a military link to the deaths. When 600 protesters were killed in one day deliberately then you should hold them accountable. Instead of pointing fingers at a previous date and making a retarded argument. Or is your justification that the masses somehow approve of mass murder so nothing should be done? How stupid that does that? So the vast majority of Egyptians are monsters?

2. Okay

3. Provide evidence paid 'thugs' were used and don't give me a military source.

4. Proof? Everybody was reporting about the sudden change just 24 hours later. And the gulf countries were anti MB and started shipping oil as soon as the coup started. Where am I insulting Egyptians? Do you have problems with reading comprehension? I clearly stated that these things could have been avoided but military pushed for it to pressure the MB over time.

5. Okay

6. So? They were voted in by the people. Liberals got 30% of the seats? MB had 47% and the Nour party had about 30% and they have different ideas then the MB and are even against them as we seen in the coup. How so did they not have any influence? I'm not doing your work for you back your statements up.

7. Why are you telling me I shouldn't back them up? They have a large history. Of course I recognized mistakes they made in the past couple years but not all blame lies on them. As I've said, minority secularists and liberals wanted too much influence of their own which was unrealistic. And I'm not backing them up just because I agree with them ideologically. On the contrary, you're doing so, whatever the coptic church says you roll with it.

@Frogman