DRDO to complete feasibility study for AMCA project in 18 months

[shaktiman2010]

what you are talking about those posters and those wind tunnel models which change in every aero india ??/ Well, as far as i know ADA claims they have very good people in design department and according to them they can design a good model for AMCA but building a stealth design is very critical.

Firstly, what is wrong if they are out in public with their AMCA's projected designs? Should we be shy? Also, AMCA design is evolving over-time and it would be immature to jump to any conclusions, same as with PAK-FA.

Secondly, AMCA project hasn't been funded yet so you can't expect them to put actual AMCA in aero-India. Do you?

Funny thing is they haven't even done a feasibility report and they are telling the whole world that they will build a 5th gen fighter.

Feasibility study was funded only few days back. Do you expect them to complete that within a week? That sounds like horse-crying to me, without reading news properly.

Secondly, they are displaying the projected models based on requirements which IAF gave them, so it was better to make them public, so we will know if IAF twists their own original requirements in future to dump domestic products.

The whole purpose of AMCA is to just put together the technologies learnt from FGFA and MMRCA. Just think why we are spending 5 billion $ on FGFA, its just gain all the necessary tech and be a part of a 5th gen program so that they could incorporate this in AMCA.

Wrong.

The whole purpose of AMCA is to develop home-based R&D base within India for next generation aerospace R&D and close the technology gap between LCA and foreign aerospace R&D programs like PAK-FA and Raptor.

MRCA is nothing but manufacturing-cum-assembling contract which provides no access to background R&D. It will not create any R&D infrastructure within country, but only manufacturing factories.

Same is true with PAK-FA, as Russia will keep the most crucial R&D to itself and in few areas, DRDO will contribute from their own R&D. The only good thing about PAK-FA is, DRDO will get to contribute its own R&D in the programme. It's still better than MRCA.

Also we haven't started the research on 5th gen techs, how do you explain the completion of project by 2020 unless somebody teaches you the concepts.

Who teaches Russians fifth Generation concepts? Some aliens?

Trust your own brains and use them. That's what AMCA is going to be.

In short we have not yet started and its a long road to go.

Exactly. Sooner we begin on home-based AMCA, the better. And, I think funding of feasibility study, is a step in right direction.

 

[sancho]

brother sancho, i get what you are saying.. but look at it this way, it is not just about if we can make it or will we make it. it is about putting all the things needed there.. I believe AMCA is only a capability building measure. i am pretty sure the MoD has realised that dependence on foreign goods is not the way.. also, it is much better if we have the capability to build something on our own.. AMCA is just one of those attempts.. look at it this way, we analyse, we do the research, we build all the things necessary to develop a 5th gen fighter., in the end, we have the capability..

And all these points are already fixed by FGFA development! DRDO, HAL, SAMTEL... are already developing techs and capabilities for FGFA. HAL is building up the neccesary steps to produce the fighter in India and when that happen we will have the capability of developing, producing and operating an 5th gen fighter, no need for AMCA here!
In regard to radar and engine developments, because AESA and Kaveri - Snecma engine will first be developed and integrated into LCA anyway. So again, we don't need AMCA for this!
The experience and know how we get out of these projects (+MMRCA) will directly influence further upgrades of LCA, as well as AURA development. Again, no need to start AMCA to gain knowledge for further indigenous projects!

Also think about it this, for each twin engined AMCA, we can also build 1 x further upgraded single engined LCA in the A2A role (stealthy shapings and coatings, internal weapon bays, or pods, TVC) + 1 x single engined AURA UCAV in the strike role. Higher numbers for aircrafts for the same costs and all as indigenous as AMCA (for pride reasons ).
With MMRCA, MKI and FGFA we already have a highly capable topline fleet, LCA and UCAVs gives us the opportunity to add cost-effective low end aircrafts around them in high numbers and developed from the knowhow we gathered in the meantime!

LCA MK1 => LCA MK2 + MMRCA + FGFA => LCA MK3 + AURA UCAV

 

[luckyyy]

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2011/02/six-drdo-labs-to-work-on-fgfa.html

so , seem that FGFA is not a JV ..
what ever russian will contribute will remain IP with russia
whatever india will contribute will remain IP with india..

but the basic problum i see there is that Engine & airframe desine IP will remain with russia , so india will be wholly dependent for basic fighter on russia and can only add/remove sensors/avionic etc fitted on it..

 

[shaktiman2010]

And all these points are already fixed by FGFA development! DRDO, HAL, SAMTEL... are already developing techs and capabilities for FGFA. HAL is building up the neccesary steps to produce the fighter in India and when that happen we will have the capability of developing, producing and operating an 5th gen fighter, no need for AMCA here!

First bolded part is true. DRDO will be develop and contribute stealth, avionics to FGFA and IP for same will remain with India.

Second bolded part is false. Russia is not transferring any IP for parts made in Russia.

That's why to fill the R&D gap in FGFA, AMCA is necessary. Also, it keeps the Russia on its toes. If FGFA fails, we will have our own backup plan to carry work forward.

 

[luckyyy]

First bolded part is true. DRDO will be develop and contribute stealth, avionics to FGFA and IP for same will remain with India.

Second bolded part is false. Russia is not transferring any IP for parts made in Russia.

That's why to fill the R&D gap in FGFA, AMCA is necessary. Also, it keeps the Russia on its toes. If FGFA fails, we will have our own backup plan to carry work forward.

FGFA is no game changer for indian R&D , it will be just like the MKI where russian will provide the engine , radar and airframe and rest of the equipments will be added by indian side..
also the most of the russian IP part is already done..

 

[shaktiman2010]

so , seem that FGFA is not a JV ..
what ever russian will contribute will remain IP with russia
whatever india will contribute will remain IP with india..

but the basic problum i see there is that Engine & airframe desine IP will remain with russia , so india will be wholly dependent for basic fighter on russia and can only add/remove sensors/avionic etc fitted on it..

Exactly.

That's why AMCA is required - to fill the gaps between what India is contributing in FGFA and what Russians are denying to transfer(engine, 5th generation airframe design). Without AMCA, India won't have control over "all" 5th Generation technologies.

 

[sancho]

First bolded part is true. DRDO will be develop and contribute stealth, avionics to FGFA and IP for same will remain with India.

Second bolded part is false. Russia is not transferring any IP for parts made in Russia.

That's why to fill the R&D gap in FGFA, AMCA is necessary. Also, it keeps the Russia on its toes. If FGFA fails, we will have our own backup plan to carry work forward.

And do you have a reliable source for that, or is it just a claim like we don't get ToT through Kaveri - Sncema co-development?
Russian parts are mainly radar and engine and we have own developments in this field aimed on LCA MK2, AMCA is not needed for that and please, are you really claiming AMCA will be as capable as FGFA?

 

[shaktiman2010]

Russian parts are mainly radar and engine and we have own developments in this field aimed on LCA MK2, AMCA is not needed for that and please, are you really claiming AMCA will be as capable as FGFA?

LCA-Mk2 and AMCA are in different league. There is a huge difference between their purpose and projected requirements.

AMCA will focus mainly in areas, where Russia is holding up IP in FGFA.

 

[luckyyy]

And do you have a reliable source for that, or is it just a claim like we don't get ToT through Kaveri - Sncema co-development?
Russian parts are mainly radar and engine and we have own developments in this field aimed on LCA MK2, AMCA is not needed for that and please, are you really claiming AMCA will be as capable as FGFA?

there is a difference b/w ToT and IP , ..
even in Kaveri - Sncema , ToT will be there but india have to pay loyalty to france on the components france contributes base on number of engine we made for own use , simillierly france will be paying loyalty to india , if they biuld the engine for their use..

same goes for FGFA..

and AMCA will be as capable as FGFA with only difference been in payload and range , ..

 

[shaktiman2010]

In case of Snecma-Kaveri JV, France will provide pre-fabricated cores from their French factory, and GTRE will add the rest. This prototype will be called K-10. India will not get any IP here.

Also Snecma-Kaveri JV is not operational yet. Negotiations are still on. And, in the meanwhile GTRE's Kaveri K-9 prototype has passed first flight test in Russia, last year in November.

Its not surprising that French are suddenly interested in forming JV with Indian engine-maker, which they refused in 1980's.

 

[kingdurgaking]

this place is filled with idiots and jingos,

why cant they see tejas ?????? when whole bl00dy world is phasing out fourth gen fighter india is planning to induct one in next 5 years. right now tejas is not fourth gen fighter.
it will be in next 5 years.

china is done with fifth gen they are planning sixth gen fighter by the time india wil have a first prototype of fifth gen. they will be close to inducting sixth gen fighter.

this gap is increasing wider -

whats the point of it ? ??? why cant they just go jv and rubbish this idea when its planned too bl00dy late ?

You seems to be more smart that IAF and IAS officer.. why dont you join as national security advisor?... China has got a huge inventory base of 4th gen fighters.. and they will remain for next 1 decade.. Mean while LCA can be upgraded with AESA what ever.. it has got huge potential.. Jot down what LCA MK-2 cant do compared to our adversairies it has now payload capacity comparable to J-10 and has got as a ton less for carrying fuel....

Just compare and make some sense ... always arguing generally with only negative things..

 

[shaktiman2010]

^^^^^^ LOL.

 

[faithfulguy]

In case of Snecma-Kaveri JV, France will provide pre-fabricated cores from their French factory, and GTRE will add the rest. This prototype will be called K-10. India will not get any IP here.

Also Snecma-Kaveri JV is not operational yet. Negotiations are still on. And, in the meanwhile GTRE's Kaveri K-9 prototype has passed first flight test in Russia, last year in November.

Its not surprising that French are suddenly interested in forming JV with Indian engine-maker, which they refused in 1980's.

If India can build a 5th generation air craft on its own, it won't need to cooperate with Russia as India has plenty of funds. What it need is technology. Indian government correctlt judged that the domestic technology cannot produce a 5th generation that will be acceptible to the Indian AF when its ready, so its seeks joint venture. I was also thinking of Kaveri. The Indian government gave up and seek for external assistance after years of effort and a satisfactory engine was not developed. I believe that the Indian government are smart enough to avoid a similar experience with a 5th generation fighter.

As for AMCA, the goal is to learn from the PAKFA and incorporate the knowledge into AMCA. AMCA will not be a completely indigenous affort as Indian scientist will need knowledge from PAKFA. In another word, I believe the engineers will try to reverse engineer the PAKFA once India has one and then incorporate into AMCA design. Because of this, the time line for a AMCA would be pushed way down the line that I forsee India buying a medium weight 5th generation fighter aircraft in 2025 time frame as AMCA would not be ready. Unless Russia share the most critical technology to India sooner. Which I do not see it happening. If India has the ability to build a 5th generation fighter on its own and with all the money, why do a joint venture with Russia in the first place?

 

[shaktiman2010]

I was also thinking of Kaveri. The Indian government gave up and seek for external assistance after years of effort and a satisfactory engine was not developed.

Bold part is false.

K-9's first flight was successful on Russian test-bed and GoI has asked GTRE to go ahead with further tests.

JV with Snecma for K-10 variant isn't even signed yet and French has refused to transfer IP for cryogenic engine.

As for AMCA, the goal is to learn from the PAKFA and incorporate the knowledge into AMCA. AMCA will not be a completely indigenous affort as Indian scientist will need knowledge from PAKFA. In another word, I believe the engineers will try to reverse engineer the PAKFA once India has one and then incorporate into AMCA design.

Even USA steals technology from Russia, Germany. Nothing bad if Indians can manage to do that. Sooner or later, India has to play same tricks if it has to remain in global game. Though, I doubt your claims.

AMCA and FGFA are different class of fighters for different purpose and requirements. They don't have much in common.