Dont Worry Democracy is Here!

[desiman]

Ting ring magarmach kia hal ha.

ehh free voting ??

Do you consider bought votes both In India and Pakistan as free voting ??

mmmmmmm i dont

bas jindagi kat rehi hai madam, aap kesi hai ?

Tum har bar India ko kyun leke aa jati ho beech mein moti

but seriously if not democracy what do you recommend for Pakistan ? Votes can only be bought till a point, the majority still decides who runs the government.

 

[Spring Onion]

bas jindagi kat rehi hai madam, aap kesi hai ?

Tum har bar India ko kyun leke aa jati ho beech mein moti

but seriously if not democracy what do you recommend for Pakistan ? Votes can only be bought till a point, the majority still decides who runs the government.

We are NOT against democracy. We are against Flawed democracy.

What you call democracy is not the one which is adopted by developed countries.


Seriously Out of 16 crore Pakistanis only over 80 lakhs are registered voters and millions (voting age) are not registered.

 

[desiman]

We are NOT against democracy. We are against Flawed democracy.

What you call democracy is not the one which is adopted by developed countries.


Seriously Out of 16 crore Pakistanis only over 80 lakhs are registered voters and millions (voting age) are not registered.

So then the best way would be a slow and steady improvement to the process. The people of Pakistan are not used to a fully functional democracy therefore its in their best interest to nurture a climate where the essence of democracy can prosper. These are not quick solutions but long lasting ones for sure.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

And what is the alternate ? Why dont you just change Pakistan to adopt to democracy ? Why is it that a system that works for everyone does not work for Pakistan ?

Democracy works for everyone? That is a very lame statement my friend...

Do you realize that people in the west... the birthplace of Democracy are fed up with their own system... Infact the majority dont even vote in their elections these days with usual turnout of around 40 percent people voting... I can understand your mindset though, so let me clarify a few things for you...

1. Democracy does not work... This is just an illusion created in the minds of the people by some very cunning folks... What democracy does is create an illusion of power to the people... The reality is that each and every country in the world which is democratic is full of corruption... If you keep your ears to the ground you ll remember the scandal in Britain where MPs were involved in a huge scam claiming expenses from tax payers money for things like Rubber Ducks to Moats to Book Shelves to all sorts of private belongings... Similarly in America there have been people in state government keeping money earned by bribes inside their REFRIGERATORS for heaven's sake!!!

2. As I mentioned before Democracy allows representatives to legislate... and it gives complete power to these people to legislate... Now I have a big problem with this... because at the end of the day those who are well off and have resources will manage to get legislation which goes in their own favor... and this is exactly what we see in the west... Politicians suc up to the big business and multinationals and private military companies and devise laws and setup policies that benefit these giant corporations instead of the common man (who they keep stupefied by blasting their minds with massive propaganda if I may add)... Since the Iraq war started, some of the biggest winners and profit makers have been the military industrial complex within the US, companies such as Boeing etc...

According to CorpWatch.org, just in one year, in 2005 Lockheed Martin made $19.4bn in military contracts, while Northrop Grumman received $13.5bn from the government. Both of these firms contribute heavily to political campaigns for both Republicans and Democrats.

3. This idea that western countries are some sort of utopia is falsehood and absolutely wrong... I have been living in the west for a decade and I have seen human suffering here that is beyond imagination... All because of people legislating catering for the rich and powerful and leaving the poor in a permanent misery...

What is the alternate...

The alternate my friend (if you ever read my posts) is Khilafat instead of Jamhoriyat...

There is a key difference between the two...

Let us consider the similarities for discussion's sake...

1. Both systems have representative governments and rulers... In Arabic it is called Intikhab

2. Both systems have methods of accountability of the government... In Arabic it is called Ihtisab

3. Both systems involve discussion and consultation on governing issues... In Arabic this is called Shura

Now here is the main difference...

In Democracy the representatives sit in the parliament and can devise all sorts of laws... So they can declare that drinking alcohol is alright... Men and women can live together and have children without the contract of marriage... Feudal land lords can keep their land without making use of it for cultivation for as long as they want... We can go to war and destroy another country because it benefits Lookheed Martin... People and the state should trade in interest based transaction and fiat currency... Shooder be declared inferior to Barahman... I hope you get the idea...

Whereas in Caliphate this will not be permitted... Representatives of the people can discuss administration and make rules for that like where to build a hospital or school, but they can never be allowed to vote on issues that are definitive i.e Qatai (if you use the Arabic term) from the rules of the Quran and Sunnah... So using above examples they cannot legislate that... drinking alcohol is alright, men and women can live together without marriage... feudal land lords can keep land unused for more than three years... Cannot go to war to profit the military industrial complex... no interest based transaction or fiat currency is allowed... No such thing as superior or inferior caste!!!

Feel free to discuss...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Oh and I should add since you are a non Muslim... You will be allowed to drink alcohol but still wont be allowed to drive a car under the influence... Non Muslims have some relaxation on certain rules like these...

 

[desiman]

Oh and I should add since you are a non Muslim... You will be allowed to drink alcohol but still wont be allowed to drive a car under the influence... Non Muslims have some relaxation on certain rules like these...

excuse me I am a Muslim if you really want to know, just by being an Indian does not mean that I cant be a Muslim, check your facts before you write something. Grow up from your pre-historic mindset, the world is moving so move with it or perish.

 

[Chogy]

I believe in the statement "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Democracy is not perfect, but I think it is the best system. Poor voter turnout comes from one of two sources.

1) Feeling helpless. "My vote means nothing" or...
2) Feeling content/lazy. "I like how everything's going. I haven't voted in 10 years, and everything's fine."

Both reasons are foolish, and when a vote is available, it is a civic responsibility to get out and vote. The first Iraqi vote had a tremendous turnout, despite the terror threats.

The problem with giving all of the power to one man, absolute authority over life and death... they often disguise this ultimate power with "councils" and "courts" and other means to convince the people that the power is spread, when in fact it resides with the individual. A classic case is Hitler's 3rd Reich. When German citizens needed to be tried for crimes against the State, the court is composed of those who acknowledge Hitler's absolute will, and they exercise it. They dare not go against the wishes of the Fuhrer.

Benevolent Dictatorships are very rare in human history, and almost all of them existed in antiquity. Far more frequent are the evil variety: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il, Saddam, and a wide variety of petty South American dictators.

 

[KALKI]

^^ Idi Amin!

 

[desiman]

Democracy works for everyone? That is a very lame statement my friend...

Do you realize that people in the west... the birthplace of Democracy are fed up with their own system... Infact the majority dont even vote in their elections these days with usual turnout of around 40 percent people voting... I can understand your mindset though, so let me clarify a few things for you...

1. Democracy does not work... This is just an illusion created in the minds of the people by some very cunning folks... What democracy does is create an illusion of power to the people... The reality is that each and every country in the world which is democratic is full of corruption... If you keep your ears to the ground you ll remember the scandal in Britain where MPs were involved in a huge scam claiming expenses from tax payers money for things like Rubber Ducks to Moats to Book Shelves to all sorts of private belongings... Similarly in America there have been people in state government keeping money earned by bribes inside their REFRIGERATORS for heaven's sake!!!

2. As I mentioned before Democracy allows representatives to legislate... and it gives complete power to these people to legislate... Now I have a big problem with this... because at the end of the day those who are well off and have resources will manage to get legislation which goes in their own favor... and this is exactly what we see in the west... Politicians suc up to the big business and multinationals and private military companies and devise laws and setup policies that benefit these giant corporations instead of the common man (who they keep stupefied by blasting their minds with massive propaganda if I may add)... Since the Iraq war started, some of the biggest winners and profit makers have been the military industrial complex within the US, companies such as Boeing etc...

According to CorpWatch.org, just in one year, in 2005 Lockheed Martin made $19.4bn in military contracts, while Northrop Grumman received $13.5bn from the government. Both of these firms contribute heavily to political campaigns for both Republicans and Democrats.

3. This idea that western countries are some sort of utopia is falsehood and absolutely wrong... I have been living in the west for a decade and I have seen human suffering here that is beyond imagination... All because of people legislating catering for the rich and powerful and leaving the poor in a permanent misery...

What is the alternate...

The alternate my friend (if you ever read my posts) is Khilafat instead of Jamhoriyat...

There is a key difference between the two...

Let us consider the similarities for discussion's sake...

1. Both systems have representative governments and rulers... In Arabic it is called Intikhab

2. Both systems have methods of accountability of the government... In Arabic it is called Ihtisab

3. Both systems involve discussion and consultation on governing issues... In Arabic this is called Shura

Now here is the main difference...

In Democracy the representatives sit in the parliament and can devise all sorts of laws... So they can declare that drinking alcohol is alright... Men and women can live together and have children without the contract of marriage... Feudal land lords can keep their land without making use of it for cultivation for as long as they want... We can go to war and destroy another country because it benefits Lookheed Martin... People and the state should trade in interest based transaction and fiat currency... Shooder be declared inferior to Barahman... I hope you get the idea...

Whereas in Caliphate this will not be permitted... Representatives of the people can discuss administration and make rules for that like where to build a hospital or school, but they can never be allowed to vote on issues that are definitive i.e Qatai (if you use the Arabic term) from the rules of the Quran and Sunnah... So using above examples they cannot legislate that... drinking alcohol is alright, men and women can live together without marriage... feudal land lords can keep land unused for more than three years... Cannot go to war to profit the military industrial complex... no interest based transaction or fiat currency is allowed... No such thing as superior or inferior caste!!!

Feel free to discuss...

Ok Im not going to reply to each one of your points as your talking about incidents rather then whole issue itself.

As you say democracy does not work, please let me know which country on this planet is flourishing without a democratic system. And by flourishing I mean both economically and a having a strong sense of society.

Islamic law does not work, there are more than enough examples around the world so we dont need to debate on that. Religion and governance cannot run together, the world does not work like that. Religion has the tendency to stick to old rules and outdated tradition where as the responsibility of a state is to change with times and adapt, religion and politics contradict each other in every way.

You are again picking and choosing points to criticize democracy over. The easiest way to judge the success of the democratic system is to see who rules the world. No one comes close to the United States and the main reason being the freedom of thought, expression and the right to choose their own government, that their democratic constitution grants them. Please let me know where else on earth as an alternate system showed signs of success and has nurtured a successful nation.

Democracy is a evolving system which takes decades to mature. Just because Pakistan started having elections does not make it a democratic country. Until and unless the proper infrastructure is in place, the system will never work. It require patience and hard work which by the looks of it is going to be a tough ask for Pakistan as the signs for another military coup are on their way. Pakistani's sadly lack the understanding of democracy and most of the time want instant results or revolutions. I see to often here people calling for drastic change and venting their emotions on forums but life does not work like that. Political changes happen over long durations and take conscious effort. As a famous Pakistani said recently Pakistan has become the country of meaningless talk shows and debates. Every channel has these talks shows where a " Defense analyst " talks about theoretical scenarios and references back to old times for instant gratification. The problem is not with democracy but with the attitude which seems to be to rigid to change. As I said before dont blame the system blame the people running it.

 

[KALKI]

The problem is not with democracy but with the attitude which seems to be to rigid to change.

Says it all!

 

[Time Assassin]

All these problems can be solved by simple steps.

No.1: On the War on Terror either pull out completely or charge in for a full assualt cos the longer it lasts the more trouble it will cause.

No.2: Sort out Pakistan's image to the rest of the World, we ain't a s***hole to be walked over, we have many powers.

No.3: Stop the whole India is the bad guy saga cause its not, India figured out along time ago that wars make your country collapse, if India and Pakistan works together we would be the best of allies. I kno many Indians and Pakistanis have no problems with each other but its time to tell our goverments that.

No.4: Either devolp Karachi, Lahore or Islamabad we have the money to do it, forget everything else a good city equals respect, power and more money.

No.5: DEMAND USA for more money if they want to keep us, we have more to lose in the WoT than they do and they started this pointless war cos NO-ONE!!! can beat the Taliban, history tells us over and over again.

 

[Chogy]

^^ I don't disagree with much of what you say, but if no one can defeat the Taliban, then what answer do you propose? If you ignore them, not only do you expose millions to their twisted social constructs, you expose yourself in the sense that the Taliban seek to export their thoughts and methods. Terror will not vanish if we leave them alone.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

excuse me I am a Muslim if you really want to know, just by being an Indian does not mean that I cant be a Muslim, check your facts before you write something. Grow up from your pre-historic mindset, the world is moving so move with it or perish.

My apologies desiman... I meant no offense... If you are a Muslim then you would understand what I have written even more...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Ok Im not going to reply to each one of your points as your talking about incidents rather then whole issue itself.

As you say democracy does not work, please let me know which country on this planet is flourishing without a democratic system. And by flourishing I mean both economically and a having a strong sense of society.

What you consider "working" is still a failure in the amount of misery that is found in democratic states...

In another way... Yes democracy at present is the best system applied... but that does nt mean its the best available... Muslims did not build the house of wisdom under a democracy... mind you...

Islamic law does not work, there are more than enough examples around the world so we dont need to debate on that. Religion and governance cannot run together, the world does not work like that. Religion has the tendency to stick to old rules and outdated tradition where as the responsibility of a state is to change with times and adapt, religion and politics contradict each other in every way.

and you said that you are a Muslim... haha

and why debate when you say we dont need to debate on that?

There is no Caliphate in the world... that means Islam in its political form is absent from the world... The examples you have are all non Islamic with a few elements of Islam thrown in to confuse Muslims like you...

You are again picking and choosing points to criticize democracy over. The easiest way to judge the success of the democratic system is to see who rules the world. No one comes close to the United States and the main reason being the freedom of thought, expression and the right to choose their own government, that their democratic constitution grants them. Please let me know where else on earth as an alternate system showed signs of success and has nurtured a successful nation.

America is obviously the sole superpower in the world... However the point that you are missing is that it is currently existing as a superpower with sheer brutality and injustice... The reason why America has to invade other lands and kill their people is because people are not buying the American dream and believe in other ideologies than the one America is offering to people...

The other point which is completely lost on you (and perhaps because of your non familiarity with Islam's history) is that Muslims have been the builders of numerous civilizations even though they had lots of disagreements and fights amongst themselves... To present American power as something new tells me that you are ill informed of history of mankind... There have been numerous empires and superpowers in the world's history... Does nt make them right... Soviet Union was a superpower... Was communism right? By your logic just coz they were a mighty power, we should ve simply let them occupy Afghanistan and become communists ourselves...

Democracy is a evolving system which takes decades to mature. Just because Pakistan started having elections does not make it a democratic country. Until and unless the proper infrastructure is in place, the system will never work. It require patience and hard work which by the looks of it is going to be a tough ask for Pakistan as the signs for another military coup are on their way. Pakistani's sadly lack the understanding of democracy and most of the time want instant results or revolutions. I see to often here people calling for drastic change and venting their emotions on forums but life does not work like that. Political changes happen over long durations and take conscious effort. As a famous Pakistani said recently Pakistan has become the country of meaningless talk shows and debates. Every channel has these talks shows where a " Defense analyst " talks about theoretical scenarios and references back to old times for instant gratification. The problem is not with democracy but with the attitude which seems to be to rigid to change. As I said before dont blame the system blame the people running it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah... Talk about patronizing... Pakistan lacks the understanding of Democracy... and you Mr India understands it...

I think its pretty pointless to discuss anything with you... btw are you a Tamil?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I believe in the statement "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Democracy is not perfect, but I think it is the best system. Poor voter turnout comes from one of two sources.

1) Feeling helpless. "My vote means nothing" or...
2) Feeling content/lazy. "I like how everything's going. I haven't voted in 10 years, and everything's fine."

Both reasons are foolish, and when a vote is available, it is a civic responsibility to get out and vote. The first Iraqi vote had a tremendous turnout, despite the terror threats.

The problem with giving all of the power to one man, absolute authority over life and death... they often disguise this ultimate power with "councils" and "courts" and other means to convince the people that the power is spread, when in fact it resides with the individual. A classic case is Hitler's 3rd Reich. When German citizens needed to be tried for crimes against the State, the court is composed of those who acknowledge Hitler's absolute will, and they exercise it. They dare not go against the wishes of the Fuhrer.

Benevolent Dictatorships are very rare in human history, and almost all of them existed in antiquity. Far more frequent are the evil variety: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il, Saddam, and a wide variety of petty South American dictators.

Yep we have had our idiots as leaders too... Yazid anyone?

I agree... no one should have power of life and death over others... This is why if a Caliph acts unjustly against someone, the Islamic state gives the right for that person to take the Caliph to court...

Oh and although Bush was nt a benevolent Dictator... you should include him amongst these people for spilling an equal amount of blood... Where he differs is that he did it to another country...