Domestic & Social Crimes [Mob/ Vigilante justice] Thread

[sparklingway]

I have avoided commenting on this issue, keeping in mind the sensitivity and the kind of ignorant and irrational behavior it usually brings out of people.

Nonetheless, I have been forced to say something now.

Every self styled practicing Pakistani Muslim has claimed that somehow Ahmadis in Pakistan are involved in "anti-Pakistan" activities. Besides the fact that they are yet to bring an iota of evidence to substantiate their unfounded claims, it is all along the usual line of declaring everybody a traitor and an "agent". Nobody has a right to be different from this bigoted group.

Just provide me one, just one reference of how they are anti-Pakistan and the other stupid claims you people have made? When asked these questions Blackblood came up with the greatest of answers, that Ahmadis sitting in Canada were the real perpetrators and they had left proxies here to commit their acts. How they are pro-Zionist is beyond me? I won't go into the merits of arguing whether Israel is a threat or not (which is already corrupted with a ton loads of conspiracy theories that dominate the minds of the "educated" people as well), I am unable to comprehend why Ahamdis would be working for zionism. Are they Jews hiding as Muslims? How they support "enemies" is beyond any comprehension? Do you people mean to say that Ahmadis provide spies for India now?

If you've been told since childhood that Ahamdis are non-Muslims and the conspiracies that received widespread acclaim in society have reached you as well do not mean that they are somehow unworthy citizens. For all it's worth, they've contributed more to the society than most of us. They claim the highest literacy rate of any religious group in Pakistan and this is not because of the ever synonymous "foreign aid to destabilize Pakistan".

Ahmadis have only created a sense of insecurity among the mainstream followers for if they fear (which many are expressing here) that Ahmadis turn people away from Islam and pollute their minds with their un-Islamic beliefs, than it says more about the weakness of mainstream Evangelist groups inside Pakistan who are unable to stop the supposed "tirade" of an extremely small minority, then this speaks volumes about their incompetence.

If there exists a Tableeghi Jamaat which preaches religion door to door in each and every locality inside Pakistan and teaches every disciple a wordy, articulate and attractive speech to attract more people to its cause, then why should people from any other religions not be allowed to preach their religion? Are you people upholding that only Sunni Muslims would be allowed to preach in Pakistan now? Following this logic Shias will be prohibited soon and later there'll be Deobandi-Barelvi fights on the right to preaching as well.

What I can summarize is that everybody is scared that Ahmadis using their superpowers are able to convert ordinary people to their religion and this creates a sense of insecurity among the bigoted class. Religious evangelism is somehow only their turf which has to be guarded. If you believe in the truthfulness of your faith and its superiority, then enter a competitive field and preach your religion. Someone else's victory does not prove "foreign agenda" rather it proves your incompetence and failure.

The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan

PART II : Fundamental Rights and Principles of Policy
​

Article 20 : Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.

Subject to law, public order and morality:-
(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and
(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.

Third grade journalists have flooded people's minds with garbage. There used to be a weekly column in Nawa i Waqt's Sunday Magazine about Qadiyanis. The idiot who wrote it for over three years never provided a source or reference for his claims but spread so much hate through his columns and condoned violence that I was surprised as to why nobody dared taking him to court. But I realized that anybody who took him to court would be label a Qadiyani and lynched in a busy bazaar and the police later will have no eye witness to a public murder. He once claimed that Ahmadis eat poo in a religious ceremony (I read that column myself) and yet he was writing for a level 1 newspaper. Talk about heresay and conspiracies.

I plead you to provide conclusive and unimagined evidence of their "anti-Pakistan" activities. If you cannot, then please go and take a lesson in tolerance and rationality.

 

[T-Faz]

Just recently in the war against the terrorists, an ahmadi major sacrificed his life for Pakistan, it was done in such a brave manner that many generals came to visit his grave in an ahmadi area.

An Ahmadi Major lays down his life for Pakistan Pak Tea House

So many if them serve the country in secret, for the love of their country and for the sake of pakistani's themselves. If they wanted to destroy Pakistan, they would be using such ways that Pakistani's would be shaking in fear. Abdus Salam was an ahmadi, when India went on the offensive in 1965 with tanks, many ahmadis laid their lives to save Pakistan.

This is very shameful to see that such a treasured minority is written about this way, to save Pakistan, these extremist need to be eradicated and their roots destroyed.

 

[T-Faz]

I came across a story of one of the elders of ahmadi religion who before the partition was asked, why do ahmadis support Pakistan movement when they could suffer the same fate over there as the afghani prince who converted to ahmadiyyat and was stoned to death, he replied by simply saying that, we are not doing this for ourself but for all the Muslims of this country.

 

[qsaark]

It is really amazing that how two issues are mixed up and certain people are labeled as with 'self styled practicing Pakistani Muslim' as if its some kind of an insult.

I and many others have said it very clearly that Ahmedis have all the right to live and prosper in Pakistan however, as their leader (I dont think Mr. Ghulam Ahmed should even be called a false messenger) has claimed himself first 'Imam Mehdi' ,and later 'Isa ibn Mariam', neither Mr. Ghulam Ahmed nor his followers are Muslim period. They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam. They must declare themselves as non-Muslim and than they do whatever they like.

Ahmedis/Qadianis/Lahories were decalred non-Muslim and for their own good. It is not that as non-Muslims they have no rights in Pakistan, in fact they have all the rights any Pakistani could have. If a Christian and a Hindu can become the Chief Justice of Pakistan, than a person or persons from other minorities can also achieve what ever they inspire for.

Now violence against Ahmedis or any other minority is a crime and whoever gets involved into it must be prosecuted and punished according to the Pakistani law.

 

[sparklingway]

It is really amazing that how two issues are mixed up and certain people are labeled as with 'self styled practicing Pakistani Muslim' as if its some kind of an insult.

It was supposed to be a reminder of how they claim tolerance in religion yet do not believe in it in any way.

They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam. They must declare themselves as non-Muslim and than they do whatever they like.

Hasn't the state already done that? Doesn't the magistrate order the police nearly every month to go their places of worship and remove religious scripture (kalmas and verses)? What more do you want? A card reading "I'm a Qadiyani" hanging around their necks?

 

[qsaark]

So one day the Sunni in Pakistan could argue that no Shia can call themselves Muslim because 'Sunni are the majority in Pakistan and a 'consensus' of Sunni ulema have determined the Shia are not Muslim and it 'hurts their sentiments' to see the Shia practice and preach their faith freely and call themselves Muslims.

What nonsense.

The majority should grow a thicker skin and stop acting like children in a schoolyard whose 'sentiments get offended' because some other kid said something.

Muslims who think the above need to end this infantile behavior and grow up.

Comparing an Ahmedi who believes that Mr. Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani was Imam Mehdi and Prophet Isa ibn e Mariam with Shia and Sunni who believe that Mehdi and Isa will be two different persons and will come in the time of Dajjal as mentioned by the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) in itself is a nonsense.

This is not the matter of majority or minority, its a simple matter of belief that is simply not in accordance with what the Prophet Muhammed has said about Mehdi and Isa. The Ijmaa was not something that the Ulema based on some kind if 'invention', it was based on the Quran and Hadith.

 

[qsaark]

It was supposed to be a reminder of how they claim tolerance in religion yet do not believe in it in any way.

Why needed? Who supported violence against Ahmedis?

Hasn't the state already done that? Doesn't the magistrate order the police nearly every month to go their places of worship and remove religious scripture (kalmas and verses)? What more do you want? A card reading "I'm a Qadiyani" hanging around their necks?

Who is asking for? the debate is not on whether they should hang something around their necks or not, the debate is, they must not use the name if Islam for preaching their cult which they certainly do and I mentioned my personal experience in this regard.

 

[Meesna]

They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam.

There is a thing called civil liberties. Look it up while you are in the US. If you dictate people what they should believe or call themselves then you take away their religious freedom and you can't do that.

 

[qsaark]

There is a thing called civil liberties. Look it up while you are in the US. If you dictate people what they should believe or call themselves then you take away their religious freedom.

Religious freedom is not that being a Muslim while following Islamic teachings I start calling myself a Christian only because it will help me achieving my goals; This is called dishonesty and fraud in a civil society and prosecutable by law. And as far as myself living in USA is concerned, ever heard about Mormons? First read, than talk.

 

[Meesna]

Religious freedom is not that being a Muslim I start calling myself a Christian only because it will help me achieving my goals. Ever heard about Mormons? First read, than talk.

Why would a Muslim call himself Christian? However if you wish to call yourself Christian who is complaining?

What about Mormons? So some don't consider them real Christians… are they being persecuted for that in US? Protestants and Catholics have butchered each other for centuries for the same reason, who is going to decide who is a real Christian? Same with Muslims; Shias and Sunnis have killed each other for centuries.

because it will help me achieving my goals

What goals? Conspiracy theory again?

 

[qsaark]

Why would a Muslim call himself Christian? However if you wish to call yourself Christian who is complaining?

Because Qadyanis and Muslims are two distinct religion (later only a cult though) and if a Qadiani proclaims himself a Muslim, he is committing fraud.

What about Mormons? So some don't consider them real Christians… are they being persecuted for that in US?

So I was right, you know nothing about the history of Mormons in the USA and you are debating here.

Protestants and Catholics have butchered each other for centuries for the same reason, who is going to decide who is a real Christian? Same with Muslims; Shias and Sunnis have killed each other for centuries.

But both Shia and Sunni are united on Mehdi and Isa and believe in what Muhammed told the Muslims.

What goals? Conspiracy theory again?

Of making other Muslims fool and converting them to Qadyanis in the guise of Islam.

 

[T-Faz]

Because Qadyanis and Muslims are two distinct religion (later only a cult though) and if a Qadiani proclaims himself a Muslim, he is committing fraud.

So I was right, you know nothing about the history of Mormons in the USA and you are debating here.

But both Shia and Sunni are united on Mehdi and Isa and believe in what Muhammed told the Muslims.

Of making other Muslims fool and converting them to Qadyanis in the guise of Islam.

Relax man, chill, enough with the conspiracies. So you are saying Muslims are such fools that they are easily converted to Ahmadiyat. I know most muslim are weak in their faith so what is the problem. At least this way they pray and learn something about religion. Or are you going to say now that Ahmadies worship the Dajjal.

See you just proved one thing, a weak muslim (too many in the world) is so unaware of his religion and belief that anyone can sway him to their side. First make muslims strong enough to sustain themselves without converting, no wonder so many muslims are converting in the first place. They hear what mullahs like you have to say and they are run out.

Yon continuously come back to accusations of Ahmadi converting muslims in the guise of Islam. Could you provide me with some sort of proof that ahmadies do this, please do not provide source from a wahabi funded site or some dumbfounded article.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They want to preach their religion, they are most welcome but they must not be allowed to preach their teachings in the guise of Islam. They must declare themselves as non-Muslim and than they do whatever they like.

What is the problem if they preach their religion in the name of Mickey Mouse and claim him a prophet? By restricting what they call their beliefs/faith we are discriminating and restricting their freedom to practice their faith as they see fit.

You brought up the point about Mormons - the other Chrisitian sects are within their rights to declare Mormons a 'non-Christian cult', but the US government has no business legislating what Mormons can and cannot do and what they can and cannot call themselves - that is the point being made here. The State should not get into the business of theology and legislating on the basis of theology, especially when it comes to restricting the rights of certain communities.

Ahmedis/Qadianis/Lahories were decalred non-Muslim and for their own good. It is not that as non-Muslims they have no rights in Pakistan, in fact they have all the rights any Pakistani could have. If a Christian and a Hindu can become the Chief Justice of Pakistan, than a person or persons from other minorities can also achieve what ever they inspire for.

How is restricting Ahmadi's from calling themselves what they wish and proselytizing in the name of whatever they wish 'for their own good'? If you are going to argue that it is for their own good in that it prevents the majority community from violently targeting them and persecuting them, then that is an invalid justification and a poor reflection on the mentality of the majority.

Now violence against Ahmedis or any other minority is a crime and whoever gets involved into it must be prosecuted and punished according to the Pakistani law.

Absolutely, but by legislating against their right to call themselves what they wish we are openly doing them another injustice.

If you think about the issue dispassionately, you will realize that there is no harm done to either society or Islam with allowing the Ahmadis to call themselves Muslim.

I don't buy the argument that somehow the fact that Ahmadi's call themselves Muslim allows them to use 'deceitful means' to convert other people to their faith thinking they are converting to another sect of Islam. For those who follow mainstream Islam, the basic tenet of 'the finality of prophet-hood' with Mohammed (PBUH) should be obvious, and the Ahmadi belief in a prophet after Mohammed a clear indication that the 'proselytizer' is not preaching in favor of any of the 'traditional sects' of Islam.

If those being proselytized to do not even understand such a basic tenet of mainstream Islam as the 'finality of prophet-hood with Mohammed', then perhaps you shouldn't really worry too much about these particular 'Muslims', and focus more on spreading the proper message of Islam as you see it, rather than denying others the right to proselytize their beliefs.

 

[qsaark]

Relax man, chill, enough with the conspiracies. So you are saying Muslims are such fools that they are easily converted to Ahmadiyat. I know most muslim are weak in their faith so what is the problem. At least this way they pray and learn something about religion.

When someone starts using smilies in his reply,its is a clear indication that he is left with no logical arguments and better be left alone with all his ignorance. Indeed there are foolish Muslims who even get converted to Christianity or other religions let alone Ahmediya. But more foolish are those Muslims who do not realize it their religious duty to help those 'weak' Muslims not to convert from Islam to other religion. There was a reason why the Tablighi Jamaat was established by noted scholars such as Moulana Muhammed Ilyas in Mewat, almost eighty decades ago but I am talking to whom?

Or are you going to say now that Ahmadies worship the Dajjal.

Do not put your words in my mouth.

See you just proved one thing, a weak muslim (too many in the world) is so unaware of his religion and belief that anyone can sway him to their side. First make muslims strong enough to sustain themselves without converting, no wonder so many muslims are converting in the first place. They hear what mullahs like you have to say and they are run out.

I am not a Mullah, but Alhamdulillah more aware about my religion and the duties bestowed upon me by my Allah and his Prophet, something you need to think about rather than slinging mud and insulting people.

Yon continuously come back to accusations of Ahmadi converting muslims in the guise of Islam. Could you provide me with some sort of proof that ahmadies do this, please do not provide source from a wahabi funded site or some dumbfounded article.

I do not have to provide you with any source, because this has happened to me personally and I know that Ahmedis try to sell their cult under the guise of Islam.

 

[Awesome]

Actually no. Pakistan is different from most other states in the world; its officially, constitutionally, legally an apartheid state, It does not like its Ahmadis;



In that Pakistan is no different from Israel in how it treats Palestinians or how South Africa treated its Blacks in apartheid years.

Hopefully we can change this soon in our Pakistan.