Does the Establishment realize that Pakistan's future is with China?

[WotTen]

Pakistan is a burden that China has to carry for its strategic needs, had it not been for that they wouldn’t even bat an eye. They have to throw money at a dead horse to try and get it past the finish line. In the business world we call that a “sunk cost”.

That is unfortunately very true.

Pakistan failed to capitalize on our good relationship with the US in the early decades and we have failed to do the same with China.

The Indians have leveraged their relationship with the West and the Gulf Arabs into massive economic gains. Pakistanis keep making excuses that we need good trade with India in order to grow. Meanwhile, the second largest market on the planet (China) remains completely untapped by Pakistani businesses.

Given the fact that our wonderful civilian (and military) leaders have failed to provide the country with even a single top technical university, how many Pakistanis take advantage of a close relationship and get trained in China?

There is no choosing sides. This time Americans have selected India.

I agree completely. Not only the India factor, but Israel will never, ever allow a good relationship between the US and Pakistan as long as we have nuclear weapons. It doesn't matter if we recognize them or not. They simply will not rest until our nuclear capability has been defanged.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

They will take away our nuclear weapons if this is the kind of military leadership we have.

This military leadership only thinks of its retirement. This is why it is signing up on the line given by Americans. The problem is America gets everything and we get nothing in this deal. The line is accept India's subservience and recognize Israel. Bajwa has said publicly we want to normalize ties with India with no reciprocal message from India. How can normalization be unilateral?
While the civilian govt led by Imran was clear that Pakistan will not budge on Kashmir question.

There is only one man standing. And we should stand with him. In general, we are an ungrateful nation. We did not deserve honest leadership like Imran Khan. I hope and pray Pakistan is prosperous and fulfills the dream of its creators.



There is no choosing sides. This time Americans have selected India. We can dance as much as we want. We are on the sh*tlist. It does not mean we become enemies. It requires we realign ourselves. But with this myopic and cowardly military leadership, we cant thing beyond being America's bitch.

In this conspiracy, we knew where PPP and PMLN stood. But the military establishment has been the biggest loser. Its a dent to its reputation, it will not be able to repair.

The not-so-sharifs and bhutto/zardari clans have ONLY one agenda for Pakistan. Denuclearization and demilitarisation of Pakistan. To then become a slave nation to india. The americans want this too so that india can solely focus it's military against China. india is the west's trump card against the rise of China.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I hate the term Establishment , we should use the term Army if Army is involved or not
Time to break this wall or veil of deception

What is establishment ? Court / Army / Ilumanati ?

Let us be frank , if Army is involved with hand in cookie jar


They have stated no we are neutral , so what is this talk of Establishment

 

[Longhorn]

Seceding sovereignty and becoming a province of China is the only way you can be sure that Pakistan's future lies with China.
Otherwise, how are you so sure China will not use and throw you at an opportune time?

You keep your options open by playing off the two sides to your advantage.
For that you need internal political consensus.
No chance of that while we have meddling generals and these politicians whose only goal is to gain personal benefit for them and their families.

 

[Hallian_Khan]

They realized that long time ago, but they also realized that their children, and their own future is with america... So they preferred their future over Pakistan's

 

[VCheng]

America's decision to turn a blind eye to our nuclear program initially is well understood in the contemporary context. It has nothing to do with America wanting what's best for Pakistan or the region.

And why should it? Every nation must follow what serves its own national interests, just like Pakistan and USA in the present example.

 

[WotTen]

And why should it? Every nation must follow what serves its own national interests, just like Pakistan and USA in the present example.

It contradicts your claim that the US supported Pakistan's nuclear program as a balance of nuclear deterrence in South Asia.

The US and Israel have always been against Pakistan's nuclear capability. They have no such qualms about India's nuclear program. The US only turned a blind eye temporarily on Pakistan's nuclear program because other US interests were deemed more urgent and important.

It would be foolish for any Pakistani to harbor illusions about how the US and Israel really feel about Pakistan's nukes.

 

[nahtanbob]

This is not an option; it is a necessity forced upon us.

All this talk of balancing and diplomacy misses the point that the US is irrevocably against Pakistan. We can and should pursue economic interest but, strategically, they will never accept a strong Pakistan. The US will only tolerate a weak Pakistan that is subservient to India. This will not change no matter how much we dance to their tune.

1. The US' top priority is China containment and they have picked India as their regional ally. To that end, they must weaken Pakistan so India can focus on China.

2. The all-powerful Israeli lobby in the US will continue to push an anti-Pakistan agenda even if we recognize them. Israel will never accept a nuclear-capable Pakistan. It is non-negotiable.

3. The Muslim world is irrelevant. The Arabs and Iranians are locked in their eternal conflict, the Turks are schizophrenic about being part of Europe or Asia, the East Asian Muslim countries are rightfully focusing on domestic issue first.

If Pakistan loses China's trust, that will be the final nail in the coffin for this country. The economic meltdown will be followed by a reduction in military budget and forfeiture of our nuclear assets. For people who think that will never happen, why do they think the civilian and military leadership cannot be bought? Do current events justify such a sanguine self-assurance?

Nothing stops Pakistan and China from making an open alliance. USA and India will get closer. No one in the Pakistani establishment wants that

What happens to Pakistan when China and India make peace with each other ?

Their allegiance is to those that will pay them the most under the table.

Other very important points, maybe even the most important points, where do you think all their wealth is stored? In China or the West?

Where are their family members based (if living abroad? The West or China?

Where do their children study and live when not living in Pakistan? The West or China?

Where do they retire if leaving Pakistan? West or China?

Simple really.

Who buys Pakistani products ? West or China

Who allows more Pakistanis to immigrate ? West or China

Who allows more expatriate remmittances ? West or China

 

[WotTen]

Nothing stops Pakistan and China from making an open alliance. USA and India will get closer. No one in the Pakistani establishment wants that

Who's talking about military alliances? This is just about a reality check that Pakistan is on the wrong side of the equation when it comes to US top national interest priorities.

This is not through Pakistan's fault or America's fault. This is where the chips dropped and we had better be realistic about what kind of relationship Pakistan can expect from the US v/s what it can expect from China.

What happens to Pakistan when China and India make peace with each other ?

Then we can revisit the new dynamics and discuss.

 

[nahtanbob]

Who's talking about military alliances? This is just about a reality check that Pakistan is on the wrong side of the equation when it comes to US top national interest priorities.

This is not through Pakistan's fault or America's fault. This is where the chips dropped and we had better be realistic about what kind of relationship Pakistan can expect from the US v/s what it can expect from China.



Then we can revisit the new dynamics and discuss.

What does the title imply ? If your future lies with China that includes military matters

you are right Indian-American alliance against China is not aimed at Pakistan. But the consequences to Pakistan are real

You dodged the question - What happens to Pakistan when China and India make peace with each other ? Maybe you do not have any options
You can go running back to Uncle Sam only if Uncle Sam is interested

 

[MultaniGuy]

Personally I would not mind if Pakistan does dual nationality with China.

 

[WotTen]

What does the title imply ? If your future lies with China that includes military matters

you are right Indian-American alliance against China is not aimed at Pakistan. But the consequences to Pakistan are real

You dodged the question - What happens to Pakistan when China and India make peace with each other ? Maybe you do not have any options
You can go running back to Uncle Sam only if Uncle Sam is interested

You can read what you want but the words are very clear. Perhaps not to Indian-American trolls like yourself but everybody else can see what is written.

 

[nahtanbob]

You can read what you want but the words are very clear. Perhaps not to Indian-American trolls like yourself but everybody else can see what is written.

I have no clue what you are telling. You can say anything you want.
at the end of the day everyone including USA and China are tired of bailing out Pakistan every year

all this talk about charting a middle course does not make sense if the Pakistani state spends beyond its means

 

[WotTen]

I have no clue what you are telling.

That's because you seem incapable from seeing this from an American point of view. You are trapped in an Indian viewpoint.

The American policy towards Pakistan is not shaped by what India wants, but what America wants. Similarly, Chinese policy towards Pakistan will not be affected by what India wants, regardless of China-India relations.

In both relationships, USA-India and China-India, India is irrelevant in terms of the superpower's policy towards Pakistan. This will come as a shock to Indian nationalists, but so does most of reality.

at the end of the day everyone including USA and China are tired of bailing out Pakistan every year

No one has denied that. Many of us have written the same thing even in this thread.

 

[WotTen]

The reality is that Pakistan is being ignored in the India-USA hedging against China. It is not that anyone is out to get Pakistan. For starters India and USA could not predict the behavior of the Chinese state in the future. It is run by a opaque clique in a closed system. For some reason USA, Japan and Australia want India on board. Hence the Quad. I would say India is most reluctant member of the Quad.

USA wants to deal with Pakistan on matters of interest whether it is Afghanistan or terrorism. I doubt anyone in India can do anything about it. I doubt Indian leaders are complaining too loudly. USA has scaled back financial support and weapon transfers to Pakistan since 2011.

China friendship with Pakistan is driven by mutual antipathy towards India. Quit pretending otherwise. The writing is on the wall when China and India work out an understanding. On one hand India and China are massive peer competitors. On the other hand they have too much at stake to openly fight each other. It is not a matter of if they reach an understanding but when and under what circumstances.

TL;DR: "India doesn't care about Pakistan but Pakistan and China are obsessed with India."

Thank you for proving my point that your grasp of geopolitics is limited to Indian jingoism and has no connection to actual reality.