Does Kashmir really matter to most Pakistanis ?

[ice_man]

Most here tend to get emotional when this subject comes up.

One needs to see it rationally and through the prism of reality. The reality is that Pakistan has behaved as a s sore loser on this subject. One can understand the consternation on not getting Kashmir , you could argue endlessly on why &how Hari Singh signed off his state to the Union of India.

Nothing has changed nor ever will. The Muslim angle Pak posters give does not hold good , they had a part of Bengal which was Muslim & they lost it due to their ham handed handling.The other side is there are Muslims in India too, in fact more than they are in Pakistan.

Water is the only issue. Close to 80 % of water in Pakistan comes from Kashmir - Indus, Jhelum & Chenab.

One appreciates the concern and need to assure water supply. The IWT has assured it.

Any conversation from the Pak side leads to Nukes. How do they help when India too has them, remember numbers do not matter. It took only two to make Japan surrender. If Pak feels it will use Nukes - India too feels the same. This alone should make them useless. Only the weak or unsure use threats of Nuclear bombs. Powerful nations never even talk of the weapons they posses.

I do not want to go into how many poor India or Pakistan has for they shall always be some poor on both sides.

Pak may use Nukes in Kashmir, where will the radioactive water go ? Pak would then have all its Dam with radioactive water which would flow through the entire length of the country . The effects would remain for generations. In effect Pak would be nukeing itself .

We have to accept realities. India may never get GB , Baltistan or Aksai Chin. This is something we have accepted , we may not say so publicly . We now focus on defending what we have & not lament on what we do not.

Pakistan for its own good needs to do the same. The Plebiscite is not enforceable ( thank god for the Indian diplomats who ensured that the resolution was passed under chapter VI). In any case too much time has gone by & too many changes have happened in the area ruled by Hari Singh for it to happen.

India must assure & ensure water to Pakistan remains uninterrupted , Pak has to reconcile and move on.

the truth of the matter is EGO.

Not a single Indian or a Pakistani cares about "KASHMIRI PEOPLE".

Water supply as you mentioned is a bit naive too. India CAN try to stop the water but how much can it stop. Even if India tries to create a dam or a few dams there will be a limit to it logically no nation can literally divert rivers completely.

Besides international diplomacy and international pressure can be used if the situation arises.

But the truth of the matter lies in the fact that India and Pakistan haven't developed as nations the way Europeans have. The Europeans fought each other over and over and over in the last 2 or 3 centuries be it the Napoleonic wars or the world wars.

Until they realized that you cannot change your neighbors. It is like an arranged marriage you just have to deal with it and make your peace. Once you do that eventually you "GROW INTO IT".

Today Germany has achieved what it failed to by showing military strength in both the world wars. Germany literally calls the shots for the whole continent. Through German economic prowess and not a single show of military might, yes it still disagrees with its ally France, but they do accept the difference and move on.

BUT and there always is a BUT

India and Pakistan need at least another century and I am being optimistic here to realize that real show of strength is not a show of military power or boasting about how you could have your enemy dealt with "swiftly" (something that all sides in world war one had claimed)

the real show of power is by working together and accepting the differences.

India and Pakistan will eventually get there i am hopeful that one day both nations would put GB,KASHMIR aside and be like ok let's move on. There was a time India wanted peace but Pakistan was not willing. Now Pakistan wants peace India doesn't and this is how it will keep going back and forth.

Like the Europeans it took them the Napoleonic wars, the Franco- Prussian war and the World wars to eventually learn that it is futile and progress can only be achieved by joining hands.

I hope in our life time we see an end to hostilities. but that would be to optimistic a thought. As both sides are not done yet with their boasting yet or let's call it TROLLING EACH OTHER yet. We are probably in round 6 of a 13 round bout of trolling each other.



@vsdoc @Icarus

@Bang Galore @SpArK

@AgNoStiC MuSliM

your thought's gentlemen.....

 

[Icarus]

The assessment and number are spot on and it would be nice if India and Pakistan can work past their differences in order to prioritize spending and divert capital from dead ends into civic development, social security and health projects however, the article does not take a key factor into account. The politicization of identity in India and Pakistan which Kashmir is an integral part of, it is not a rational issue at all where numbers and logic can be used to convince people to think wisely, it is an ideological component of nationalism that has been used to a point where both nations themselves are now a hostage to it.

 

[HRK]

India thinks UN resolution lapsed after Simla. Simla makes Kashmir a bilateral issue and I don't think India will ever revert back to UN resolutions, however may Pakistani say about UN resolution.

Can you produce a single OFFICIAL DOCUMENT even form INDIAN GOVERNMENT of this stance (am not talking about some rant based statement) if not than plz advice your government to write an OFFICIAL LETTER to UN stating the same STANCE that after Shimla Agreement UN resolutions have lapsed ....

BTW have you ever wonder why Indian Government has never done this from 1971 till to date .... ??

(HINT:read the 1st clause of the Shimla Agreement & after that UN charter)

What is this with replying back?...this is a forum...the primary thing people do when join they a forum is to reply and put forward their point of view. Tell me if you cannot discuss, I can stop.

PRIMARY THING which one should do is either Learn or make others Learn after joining the forum .... its not a chat room ... see the difference ... hope you will reply back again with another post based on rant & without any substance or matter ....

 

[Bang Galore]

the truth of the matter is EGO.

Not a single Indian or a Pakistani cares about "KASHMIRI PEOPLE".

Water supply as you mentioned is a bit naive too. India CAN try to stop the water but how much can it stop. Even if India tries to create a dam or a few dams there will be a limit to it logically no nation can literally divert rivers completely.

Besides international diplomacy and international pressure can be used if the situation arises.

But the truth of the matter lies in the fact that India and Pakistan haven't developed as nations the way Europeans have. The Europeans fought each other over and over and over in the last 2 or 3 centuries be it the Napoleonic wars or the world wars.

Until they realized that you cannot change your neighbors. It is like an arranged marriage you just have to deal with it and make your peace. Once you do that eventually you "GROW INTO IT".

Today Germany has achieved what it failed to by showing military strength in both the world wars. Germany literally calls the shots for the whole continent. Through German economic prowess and not a single show of military might, yes it still disagrees with its ally France, but they do accept the difference and move on.

BUT and there always is a BUT

India and Pakistan need at least another century and I am being optimistic here to realize that real show of strength is not a show of military power or boasting about how you could have your enemy dealt with "swiftly" (something that all sides in world war one had claimed)

the real show of power is by working together and accepting the differences.

India and Pakistan will eventually get there i am hopeful that one day both nations would put GB,KASHMIR aside and be like ok let's move on. There was a time India wanted peace but Pakistan was not willing. Now Pakistan wants peace India doesn't and this is how it will keep going back and forth.

Like the Europeans it took them the Napoleonic wars, the Franco- Prussian war and the World wars to eventually learn that it is futile and progress can only be achieved by joining hands.

I hope in our life time we see an end to hostilities. but that would be to optimistic a thought. As both sides are not done yet with their boasting yet or let's call it TROLLING EACH OTHER yet. We are probably in round 6 of a 13 round bout of trolling each other.

Spot on. Wish there were more like you.

... however, the article does not take a key factor into account. The politicization of identity in India and Pakistan which Kashmir is an integral part of, it is not a rational issue at all where numbers and logic can be used to convince people to think wisely, it is an ideological component of nationalism that has been used to a point where both nations themselves are now a hostage to it.

That it is.

 

[vsdoc]

The assessment and number are spot on and it would be nice if India and Pakistan can work past their differences in order to prioritize spending and divert capital from dead ends into civic development, social security and health projects however, the article does not take a key factor into account. The politicization of identity in India and Pakistan which Kashmir is an integral part of, it is not a rational issue at all where numbers and logic can be used to convince people to think wisely, it is an ideological component of nationalism that has been used to a point where both nations themselves are now a hostage to it.

Good post @ice man

To be honest, most of you old timers know my views on this conflict. And equally I have promised @Horus to come back this time around a changed man and not pull religion into the discourse.

So I really do not know how to contribute to threads such as these.

What is Kashmir?

Nothing! A red herring, in the larger picture of India and Pakistan.

Sure the military men here will stand up and point out the strategic nuances. Believe me, I get those.

But is the fight really about Kashmir?

No it is not.

This is an old fight. And the fight is left incomplete.

Partition was a MESS. Both in its conception and its execution.

Now we are left holding this mess on both sides.

Neither side is going to be ABLE to go easy on the military spending. Sure we both realize the social cost we have borne and are bearing.

But I do believe that we are in the midst of the fag end of an existential fight. A fight that is not going to be going away on its own. A fight that's been in the making for a thousand years and counting now.

A fight that will necessarily have to be fought. Till one side can fight no more.

Cheers, Doc

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Kashmir ke without , Pakistani map looks out of sorts

 

[45'22']

the truth of the matter is EGO.

Not a single Indian or a Pakistani cares about "KASHMIRI PEOPLE".

Water supply as you mentioned is a bit naive too. India CAN try to stop the water but how much can it stop. Even if India tries to create a dam or a few dams there will be a limit to it logically no nation can literally divert rivers completely.

Besides international diplomacy and international pressure can be used if the situation arises.

But the truth of the matter lies in the fact that India and Pakistan haven't developed as nations the way Europeans have. The Europeans fought each other over and over and over in the last 2 or 3 centuries be it the Napoleonic wars or the world wars.

Until they realized that you cannot change your neighbors. It is like an arranged marriage you just have to deal with it and make your peace. Once you do that eventually you "GROW INTO IT".

Today Germany has achieved what it failed to by showing military strength in both the world wars. Germany literally calls the shots for the whole continent. Through German economic prowess and not a single show of military might, yes it still disagrees with its ally France, but they do accept the difference and move on.

BUT and there always is a BUT

India and Pakistan need at least another century and I am being optimistic here to realize that real show of strength is not a show of military power or boasting about how you could have your enemy dealt with "swiftly" (something that all sides in world war one had claimed)

the real show of power is by working together and accepting the differences.

India and Pakistan will eventually get there i am hopeful that one day both nations would put GB,KASHMIR aside and be like ok let's move on. There was a time India wanted peace but Pakistan was not willing. Now Pakistan wants peace India doesn't and this is how it will keep going back and forth.

Like the Europeans it took them the Napoleonic wars, the Franco- Prussian war and the World wars to eventually learn that it is futile and progress can only be achieved by joining hands.

I hope in our life time we see an end to hostilities. but that would be to optimistic a thought. As both sides are not done yet with their boasting yet or let's call it TROLLING EACH OTHER yet. We are probably in round 6 of a 13 round bout of trolling each other.



@vsdoc @Icarus

@Bang Galore @SpArK

@AgNoStiC MuSliM

your thought's gentlemen.....

This deserves a positive rating

 

[jaunty]

the truth of the matter is EGO.

Not a single Indian or a Pakistani cares about "KASHMIRI PEOPLE".

Water supply as you mentioned is a bit naive too. India CAN try to stop the water but how much can it stop. Even if India tries to create a dam or a few dams there will be a limit to it logically no nation can literally divert rivers completely.

Besides international diplomacy and international pressure can be used if the situation arises.

But the truth of the matter lies in the fact that India and Pakistan haven't developed as nations the way Europeans have. The Europeans fought each other over and over and over in the last 2 or 3 centuries be it the Napoleonic wars or the world wars.

Until they realized that you cannot change your neighbors. It is like an arranged marriage you just have to deal with it and make your peace. Once you do that eventually you "GROW INTO IT".

Today Germany has achieved what it failed to by showing military strength in both the world wars. Germany literally calls the shots for the whole continent. Through German economic prowess and not a single show of military might, yes it still disagrees with its ally France, but they do accept the difference and move on.

BUT and there always is a BUT

India and Pakistan need at least another century and I am being optimistic here to realize that real show of strength is not a show of military power or boasting about how you could have your enemy dealt with "swiftly" (something that all sides in world war one had claimed)

the real show of power is by working together and accepting the differences.

India and Pakistan will eventually get there i am hopeful that one day both nations would put GB,KASHMIR aside and be like ok let's move on. There was a time India wanted peace but Pakistan was not willing. Now Pakistan wants peace India doesn't and this is how it will keep going back and forth.

Like the Europeans it took them the Napoleonic wars, the Franco- Prussian war and the World wars to eventually learn that it is futile and progress can only be achieved by joining hands.

I hope in our life time we see an end to hostilities. but that would be to optimistic a thought. As both sides are not done yet with their boasting yet or let's call it TROLLING EACH OTHER yet. We are probably in round 6 of a 13 round bout of trolling each other.



@vsdoc @Icarus

@Bang Galore @SpArK

@AgNoStiC MuSliM

your thought's gentlemen.....

To add to this, from a Pakistani point of view, if there was no Kashmir issue then there would be no reason to keep such a disproportionately large army. So I don't think the powers that be actually want the Kashmir issue resolved. Their very existence depends on it.

 

[ice_man]

To add to this, from a Pakistani point of view, if there was no Kashmir issue then there would be no reason to keep such a disproportionately large army. So I don't think the powers that be actually want the Kashmir issue resolved. Their very existence depends on it.

that can be argued both ways. As most of the indian deployment is in Kashmir. Not so much along the Aksai Chin or Arunchal Pradesh. So indian army's bread and butter is obsession with Pakistan too. You hardly hear Indian army deployment along the McMahon Line.

So yes indian army does use Pakistan as well in terms of procurement and budget demands.

 

[Bang Galore]

that can be argued both ways. As most of the indian deployment is in Kashmir. Not so much along the Aksai Chin or Arunchal Pradesh. So indian army's bread and butter is obsession with Pakistan too. You hardly hear Indian army deployment along the McMahon Line.

So yes indian army does use Pakistan as well in terms of procurement and budget demands.

Regardless of where they are presently deployed, the point is that they will have an alternate scenario to press their claims.

This deserves a positive rating

That post by @ice_man requires a rating of "sanity".

This forum & sometimes even the wider discussion of "Kashmir" and the "India-Pakistan" scene have very little scope for that attribute. Kind of crazy, we speak with a kind of desensitisation. Essentially keeping a score card of the dead. While that of terrorists/militants & even those of the opposing armed forces may well make sense, we have grown to be very callous in our reaction to even innocent civilians dying. I understand the cold logic of what is happening in the Sialkot area & its connection to the happenings on the LoC but I can never bring myself to gloat over that "retaliation". On the other hand, watching Pakistanis on Tv & reading both comments & articles makes one wonder how people who claim to care about the "suffering" of a few million people in Kashmir show no compunction in loosely discussing the use of nuclear weapons on a much larger civilian population. The madness is never ending.

 

[third eye]

But the truth of the matter lies in the fact that India and Pakistan haven't developed as nations the way Europeans have. The Europeans fought each other over and over and over in the last 2 or 3 centuries be it the Napoleonic wars or the world wars.

No Asian nation which has a dispute to my mind has matured enough to put old issues behind & move on. Examples :

N Korea - S Korea
China - Japan
India - Pakistan
Israel - Rest of ME
India - China

We are very emotional , thinking from the heart. We get swayed by sentiment not rationale.

No where in Europe will you see the social structure that exists say In India & Pakistan. This level playing field helps in arriving at sane decisions.

Our animosity keeps jobs going in US, China, Russia , Israel to name a few. Someday when this simple fact dawns upon us we might change.

 

[vsdoc]

Not being either a Hindu or a Muslim, and having actually been given refuge on this land so long ago by both of them, when they were still one people, Hindus, I invariably see the India-Pakistan conflict (hyphenation if you will) from the religious and social PEOPLE level, and not so much as reluctant pawns in the Great Game.

I believe most Parsis do. With a sense of dismay. Comparing it to the homeland and people we left behind.

It is why I believe that this fight is not over.

Partition was a lull. A re-arraying of opponents and resources and positions after the Brits left. Of taking stock. Or rearming and building force, unhindered, behind a no-go line.

Left to its logical conclusion, this would have been one state with 2/3 Hindu and 1/3 Muslim populace.

The Brits were the first spoiler.

Partition was the second.

And nukes the third.

The ONLY way of a non lethal rapprochement now is for Pakistan to eventually see Hindus and Muslims living peacefully together in a prosperous and progressive India as a working continuum.

No Asian nation which has a dispute to my mind has matured enough to put old issues behind & move on. Examples :

N Korea - S Korea
China - Japan
India - Pakistan
Israel - Rest of ME
India - China

We are very emotional , thinking from the heart. We get swayed by sentiment not rationale.

No where in Europe will you see the social structure that exists say In India & Pakistan. This level playing field helps in arriving at sane decisions.

Our animosity keeps jobs going in US, China, Russia , Israel to name a few. Someday when this simple fact dawns upon us we might change.

Beautifully put.

 

[ice_man]

No Asian nation which has a dispute to my mind has matured enough to put old issues behind & move on. Examples :

N Korea - S Korea
China - Japan
India - Pakistan
Israel - Rest of ME
India - China

We are very emotional , thinking from the heart. We get swayed by sentiment not rationale.

No where in Europe will you see the social structure that exists say In India & Pakistan. This level playing field helps in arriving at sane decisions.

Our animosity keeps jobs going in US, China, Russia , Israel to name a few. Someday when this simple fact dawns upon us we might change.

We cannot change the fact that we think from the heart. In that way we are more similar to let's say South Americans. Sadly the South Americans Brazalian and Argentinian to be specific have matured.

Argentina–Brazil relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for social structures well they are changing but at least another 50 years are needed for an overhaul.

Like i stated earlier we as nations have not had enough of trolling the other yet. Once we do then maybe one day we may be able to move on. but sadly i feel we are not even half way there yet.

 

[Shamain]

the truth of the matter is EGO.

Not a single Indian or a Pakistani cares about "KASHMIRI PEOPLE".

Water supply as you mentioned is a bit naive too. India CAN try to stop the water but how much can it stop. Even if India tries to create a dam or a few dams there will be a limit to it logically no nation can literally divert rivers completely.

Besides international diplomacy and international pressure can be used if the situation arises.

But the truth of the matter lies in the fact that India and Pakistan haven't developed as nations the way Europeans have. The Europeans fought each other over and over and over in the last 2 or 3 centuries be it the Napoleonic wars or the world wars.

Until they realized that you cannot change your neighbors. It is like an arranged marriage you just have to deal with it and make your peace. Once you do that eventually you "GROW INTO IT".

Today Germany has achieved what it failed to by showing military strength in both the world wars. Germany literally calls the shots for the whole continent. Through German economic prowess and not a single show of military might, yes it still disagrees with its ally France, but they do accept the difference and move on.

BUT and there always is a BUT

India and Pakistan need at least another century and I am being optimistic here to realize that real show of strength is not a show of military power or boasting about how you could have your enemy dealt with "swiftly" (something that all sides in world war one had claimed)

the real show of power is by working together and accepting the differences.

India and Pakistan will eventually get there i am hopeful that one day both nations would put GB,KASHMIR aside and be like ok let's move on. There was a time India wanted peace but Pakistan was not willing. Now Pakistan wants peace India doesn't and this is how it will keep going back and forth.

Like the Europeans it took them the Napoleonic wars, the Franco- Prussian war and the World wars to eventually learn that it is futile and progress can only be achieved by joining hands.

I hope in our life time we see an end to hostilities. but that would be to optimistic a thought. As both sides are not done yet with their boasting yet or let's call it TROLLING EACH OTHER yet. We are probably in round 6 of a 13 round bout of trolling each other.



@vsdoc @Icarus

@Bang Galore @SpArK

@AgNoStiC MuSliM

your thought's gentlemen.....

Ironically, the entire stupid post doesnt speak a word for how to resolve kashmir dispute,land of kashmiris who have been butchered and oppressed by ia and cprf dogs for decades. And typical retarded bs that there was a time pakistan wasnt willing for peace. Yes ofcourse it was pakistan who broke away bangladesh.

 

[hussain0216]

Yes we do

Give the Kashmiris a choice and let them decide

Both sides should respect the decision


India however dosent want a democratic referendum to occur