Does a fifth gen fighter change the dynamics of aerial warfare in S. Asia?

[Joe Shearer]

I may be wrong and conversely you may be correct. But read the following article and tell me if I was wrong.

https://nation.com.pk/06-Sep-2017/chawinda-the-graveyard-of-indian-tanks-warplanes

Sadly, you are now no longer wrong; you are dreadfully ill-advised as well. Do not read newspaper articles and come to any conclusions, not unless it is Dawn (from Pakistan) or The Hindu (from India).

 

[Canuck786]

@Tps43 @Quwa @Horus

Can you please give an unbiased clarification on this matter so we know what the facts are.

 

[Basel]

As long as the engine is imported, it can be sanctioned. A maintenance facility is irrelevant if the supplies stop.



In the Battle of Chawinda, Pakistan had 3 times more modern tanks than India did and roughly the same number of infantry. And India was the one attacking, so we did it without enough numerical advantage. But in the end, we still held a lot of Pakistani territory in the region.

If one can fully overhaul / rebuilt the engine then sanctions can be taken care of, and that is what French and Brits have offered for JFT.

 

[randomradio]

If one can fully overhaul / rebuilt the engine then sanctions can be taken care of, and that is what French and Brits have offered for JFT.

Unless you build 100% of the engine, it is sanction-prone.

 

[Basel]

Unless you build 100% of the engine, it is sanction-prone.

You are arguing just to satisfy ego.

 

[randomradio]

You are arguing just to satisfy ego.

I think you have to come back to reality and accept the fact that no one is simply going to hand you engine tech.

 

[Tps43]

@Tps43 @Quwa @Horus

Can you please give an unbiased clarification on this matter so we know what the facts are.

Surely I will but u have to wait a lil bit

 

[HariPrasad]

It will change equation between India and Pakistan. Rest of subcontinent has nothing to with change in power equation.

If India gets it first, the huge gap between India and Pakistan will get further widen. If Pakistan gets it first, the gape will narrow.

 

[Basel]

I think you have to come back to reality and accept the fact that no one is simply going to hand you engine tech.

When did I say anything about full transfer of engine tech???

 

[litman]

It will change equation between India and Pakistan. Rest of subcontinent has nothing to with change in power equation.

If India gets it first, the huge gap between India and Pakistan will get further widen. If Pakistan gets it first, the gape will narrow.

if india gets it and the gap between india and pak will get further wide then what???? will india be in position to use it against pak ? NO. using a fifth gen jet means full scale war which will end up in nukes all over subcontinent. as whole of india is within range of our missiles we dont need to be worried.the nuclear deterrence is sufficient enough to keep india away from doing any mischief. pak should stop wasting funds on armed forces. lesser number of well equipped and well trained soldiers to fight LIC will do the job. few squadrons of JFT and F-16 with smart bombs will be sufficient. we need to equip for the ongoing fifth gen war and make it clear to the whole world that any aggression against pak will get a nuclear response and no country will ever dare to attack.

 

[Quwa]

@Tps43 @Quwa @Horus

Can you please give an unbiased clarification on this matter so we know what the facts are.

IMO it's tough to quantify the low-RCS stuff without proof of the PAF's solution (be it from China or otherwise) and its effectiveness. But any net-benefit in range, payload, and electronics output (esp. AESA radar) would be welcome and restore some parity in the region. But as with anything expensive, it's also a big question mark if the PAF will be able to field enough of said jets if and when they're available.

 

[Canuck786]

IMO it's tough to quantify the low-RCS stuff without proof of the PAF's solution (be it from China or otherwise) and its effectiveness. But any net-benefit in range, payload, and electronics output (esp. AESA radar) would be welcome and restore some parity in the region. But as with anything expensive, it's also a big question mark if the PAF will be able to field enough of said jets if and when they're available.

Sorry I was referring to the number of Indian tanks in the battle of Chawinda. My bad! I should have been more clear. This is what happens when get derailed and you forget what the original topic was.

 

[niaz]

@niaz sb, please correct my record as I remember being taught in school that there were 600 tanks on attack while the article suggests there were only 230?

Honourable Canuck786,

My post was in response to your statement:

“When India attacked Chawinda with 600 tanks we only needed a few good men to tackle it. Similarly if our backs were to be against the wall, we would again need a few more good men and blessings of Allah to come out of it Insha Allah!”

Since this is a scholarly column my post was meant to point out that Pakistan defenders even though outnumbered were more than a “ few good men” as you put it. Secondly, the Indian force launching that attack had only one armored division and a single armored division has about 300 tanks, certainly not 600.

I was in the UK as a young student when the war started and used to go to Pakistan High Commission at the Lowndes Square to read the latest newspapers and get the latest news. Most of the Pakistani students were keenly following the events as it was the first full-scale all-out war between India & Pakistan, I still vividly remember the happening of 1965 war.

If there is any retired officer of Pak Army who actually participated in the 65 war and is a member of PDF forum, he would probably know the first-hand account; according to best of my info the main attacking force was the Indian Army Ist Corps which consisted of one armored division (1st Arm’d) and two infantry divisions ((14th Div. & 26th) and one Mountain Div. (6th Mountain) making 4 divisions in total. Indian forces at the Sialkot sector were commanded by Lt. Gen P.O. Dunn. Maj.Gen. Rajinder Singh Sparrow commanded the Ist Armoured Div. (Black Elephant)

The defending force on Pakistani side consisted of one armored division (6th Arm’d) and one infantry division (15th Infantry). GOC of 6th Armoured was Maj. Gen. Abrar Hussein with Gen. Tikka Khan (then Major General) commanding the Infantry. Pakistani formations were part of Ist Corps commanded by Lt Gen Bakhtiar Rana based at Lahore.

Undoubtedly the Pak Army even though outnumbered fought very well. However, I am sure you are aware that propaganda plays a big part in the war and to keep up the morale of the nation, enemy strength is often exaggerated.

I quoted the passage from the war history site in my post. I remember reading the account battle of Chowinda in the Defence Journal as well but it didn’t mention the exact number of tanks employed by either side. Thus I am unable to vouch for the veracity neither of the article you referred to nor in a position to disprove it.

 

[Canuck786]

Honourable Canuck786,

My post was in response to your statement:

“When India attacked Chawinda with 600 tanks we only needed a few good men to tackle it. Similarly if our backs were to be against the wall, we would again need a few more good men and blessings of Allah to come out of it Insha Allah!”

Since this is a scholarly column my post was meant to point out that Pakistan defenders even though outnumbered were more than a “ few good men” as you put it. Secondly, the Indian force launching that attack consisted of only one armored division and a single armored division only has about 300 tanks, certainly not 600.

I was in the UK as a young student when the war started and used to go to Pakistan High Commission at the Lowndes Square to read the later newspapers and get the latest news. Most of the Pakistani students were keenly following the events as it was the first full-scale all-out war between India & Pakistan, I still vividly remember the happening of 1965 war.

If there is any retired officer of Pak Army who actually participated in the 65 war and is a member of PDF forum, he would probably know the first-hand account; according to best of my info the main attacking force was the Indian Army Ist Corps which consisted of one armored division (1st Arm’d) and two infantry divisions ((14th Div. & 26th Mountain Division) and one Mountain Div. (6th Mountain) making 4 divisions in total. Indian forces at the Sialkot sector were commanded by Lt. Gen P.O. Dunn. Maj.Gen. Rajinder Singh Sparrow commanded the Its Armoured Div. (Black Elephant)

The defending force on Pakistani side consisted of one armored division (6th Arm’d) and one infantry division (15th Infantry). GOC of 6th Armoured was Maj. Gen. Abrar Hussein with Gen. Tikka Khan (then Major General) commanding the Infantry. Pakistani formations were part of Ist Corps commanded by Lt Gen Bakhtiar Rana based at Lahore.

Undoubtedly the Pak Army even though outnumber fought very well. However, I am sure you are aware that propaganda plays a big part in the war and to keep up the morale of the nation, enemy strength is often exaggerated.

I quoted the passage from the war history site in my post. I remember reading the account battle of Chowinda in the Defence Journal as well but it didn’t mention the exact number of tanks employed by either side. Thus I am unable to vouch for the veracity neither of the article you referred to nor in apposition to disprove it.

Most certainly an unbiased opinion and very brave one at that! Thanks a lot!!

Kind Regards,
A patriot yet trying to be honest Pakistani!

@Joe Shearer in light of these developments I shall stand down unless further conflicting facts emerge out of this discussion. It is necessary for all of us to be honest about events that took place 50+ years ago.

Please accept my apologies!

 

[HariPrasad]

if india gets it and the gap between india and pak will get further wide then what???? will india be in position to use it against pak ? NO. using a fifth gen jet means full scale war which will end up in nukes all over subcontinent. as whole of india is within range of our missiles we dont need to be worried.the nuclear deterrence is sufficient enough to keep india away from doing any mischief. pak should stop wasting funds on armed forces. lesser number of well equipped and well trained soldiers to fight LIC will do the job. few squadrons of JFT and F-16 with smart bombs will be sufficient. we need to equip for the ongoing fifth gen war and make it clear to the whole world that any aggression against pak will get a nuclear response and no country will ever dare to attack.

Nuclear diarrhea is an epidemic in Pakistan.