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(Documentary) Warrior Empire: The Mughals..open thread to answer a question

AUz

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Here is pretty decent documentary of History channel on The Mughal Empire!


Interestingly, I didn't know that Mughal Empire was that much powerful/wealthy...

I regard Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Early Islamic Caliphate, Ummayad Empire, Abbasid Empire, Mongolian Empire, Ottoman Empire, French Empire, British Empire etc as the superpowers of their time...and I regarded Mughal Empire, Timurid Empire etc as great powers of their time..

But I'm kinda conflicted...

Mughal Empire, at its peak, held 25% of global economy, ~ 1/4th of global population, was the wealthiest empire on Earth with controlling the only diamond mines of the world, had 200,000+ war-horses, with hundreds of thousands of infantry men, other weapons, and best swords made with damascus steel. Mughals established new cities larger than London in deserts and Mughal engineers provided them with water by using great innovation...and so on...

I think that all these think make Mughal Empire more than a greatpower! What do you think?
 
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Mughal Empire really was great

Thats an undisputed fact...but my OP was asking a different question..

Can Mughal Empire be regarded as superpower like Rome and Persia? It certainly seems to have all the ingredients..

It was a greater power than the "greatpower" definition...

I wonder what @AUSTERLITZ has to say about OP and this ..
 
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It would be a great power, not a super power.

The sole reason that Mughal empire did not create changes anywhere apart from South Asia and very small parts of Central Asia.

Being a super power would imply that Mughal Empire's decisions had global ramifications. This did not come about.

The second is that Mughals did not create ground breaking inventions that took the world by storm...after a while it became decadent.
 
Thats an undisputed fact...but my OP was asking a different question..

Can Mughal Empire be regarded as superpower like Rome and Persia? It certainly seems to have all the ingredients..

It was a greater power than the "greatpower" definition...

I wonder what @AUSTERLITZ has to say about OP and this ..

Not at all. Both Rome and Persian empires are mentioned in Quran. There is a Surah in the Quran by the name of Rome/Rum, which mentions these empires. It is about conflict between these two empires during the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Also, I believe the Jews were living under the Roman Empire, when Prophet Isa was born among them.

The point is, these empires were so significant, that they became the part of eternal Devine revelation. If you consider them in this way, then these two empires become symbolic, representing a part of human nature.

Can you compare Mughal empire to that? No...
 
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Thats an undisputed fact...but my OP was asking a different question..

Can Mughal Empire be regarded as superpower like Rome and Persia? It certainly seems to have all the ingredients..

It was a greater power than the "greatpower" definition...

I wonder what @AUSTERLITZ has to say about OP and this ..

The mughals were economically a superpower in every sense of the word,Right up there with rome,ming china,persia etc.
But the reason the mughals are traditionally not counted among the 'best' superpowers was their military machine.
Mughal military machine was always somewhat obsolete in technology compared to its contemporaries and had no power projection capability beyond the subcontinent.They also had no naval ability and were bullied often by small european forces towards the end.
As for land,in the begiunning-It was lean,fast and mean,under babur but small.But while babur's army was superior in tech and ferocity to those in india in central asia and beyond where the ottomans reigned,compared to that it was hardly anything and its vaunted arty new in india, no advantage.Situation declined under humayun slightly.
It reached its peak power and efficiency under akbar,the army became massive and was well drilled due to akbar's obsession with drilling.
But from around jahangir's time military efficiency began to fall off,drilling,corrupt mansabdars,obsolete artillery[in regards to rest of world],shah jahan and aurangzeb's armies were overbloated inefficient machines.
Its infantry was mostly rabble.All european travellers testify to this and have shown total disdain for them..no training,drilling[after akbar's time],no discipline,low pay,no uniforms,logistics or same weaponry.All carried their families with them.Infantry held lowest prestige.They made up the numbers and if the cavalry was succeeding they would rush forward,if it failed they would flee.Morale was nonexistent after shahjahan's time.
Mughal artillery was the best in the subcontinent and primary cause of many mughal victories over indigineous forces who had no arty or very few.But while it was the terror of subcontinent,outside it it was somewhat obsolete.Shahjahan's central asian campaign was massive disaster..both jahangir and shahjahn.aurangzeb[as general] with massive numbers of forces outnumbering safavids couldn't take the simple fort of kandahar as their artillery was ineffective compared to safavids.So while mughal artillery remained master of the field well into 1730s till time of bahadur shah,it was nothing to brag about outside india.
Cavalry was the strike arm of the mughal army....
elephants were used until akbar with good results.After that they became obsolete due to gunpoweder proliferation and cost and were relegated to mobile command centres.
The cavalry was prestigious,well paid and well equipped.
The baburid cavalry was superb,excellent archers and ferocious.When the empire expanded,They drew contingents from the pashtuns and other tribes plus most of the nobility.From time of akbar the excellent rajput cavalry was also available.
But as the empire grew bigger and wealthier,they grew soft...prime example of a mongol generals' quote-
''You could conquer the world on horseback but u couldn't rule it from there''
Corruption,lavish wealthy lifestyle ,lack of earlier ferocity,increasing overreliance on sheer numbers to win[remember babur had won with small but mobile and motivated forces],increasingly bad generalship..many of the nobility were addicted to drugs and wine. Even the vaunted rajputs took large quantities of opium before battle to enter battle frenzy and were addicts.So cavalry lost its earlier edge too towards the end.And this became apparent against the maratha horsemen.
Another large weakness was logistics.mughal army simply had too much tail than teeth.Logistics train was like a mobile city.slow ,lumbering with women and children.This was another weakness exposed in maratha wars.
Mughals kept using old matchlocks and never truly upgraded their field artillery,had no navy.
In terms of wealth and land,they were truly a great power but global power projection not that much.
 
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Not at all. Both Rome and Persian empires are mentioned in Quran. There is a Surah in the Quran by the name of Rome/Rum, which mentions these empires. It is about conflict between these two empires during the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Also, I believe the Jews were living under the Roman Empire, when Prophet Isa was born among them.

The point is, these empires were so significant, that they became the part of eternal Devine revelation. If you consider them in this way, then these two empires become symbolic, representing a part of human nature.

Can you compare Mughal empire to that? No...

Well, I understand.

Roman and Persian empires influenced humanity beyond their borders....

But Mughal Empire definitely goes beyond than the 'greatpower' label...

Lets just say that it was greater than greatpower but not a super power..
 
The mughals were economically a superpower in every sense of the word,Right up there with rome,ming china,persia etc.
But the reason the mughals are traditionally not counted among the 'best' superpowers was their military machine.
Mughal military machine was always somewhat obsolete in technology compared to its contemporaries and had no power projection capability beyond the subcontinent.They also had no naval ability and were bullied often by small european forces towards the end.
As for land,in the begiunning-It was lean,fast and mean,under babur but small.But while babur's army was superior in tech and ferocity to those in india in central asia and beyond where the ottomans reigned,compared to that it was hardly anything and its vaunted arty new in india, no advantage.Situation declined under humayun slightly.
It reached its peak power and efficiency under akbar,the army became massive and was well drilled due to akbar's obsession with drilling.
But from around jahangir's time military efficiency began to fall off,drilling,corrupt mansabdars,obsolete artillery[in regards to rest of world],shah jahan and aurangzeb's armies were overbloated inefficient machines.
Its infantry was mostly rabble.All european travellers testify to this and have shown total disdain for them..no training,drilling[after akbar's time],no discipline,low pay,no uniforms,logistics or same weaponry.All carried their families with them.Infantry held lowest prestige.They made up the numbers and if the cavalry was succeeding they would rush forward,if it failed they would flee.Morale was nonexistent after shahjahan's time.
Mughal artillery was the best in the subcontinent and primary cause of many mughal victories over indigineous forces who had no arty or very few.But while it was the terror of subcontinent,outside it it was somewhat obsolete.Shahjahan's central asian campaign was massive disaster..both jahangir and shahjahn.aurangzeb[as general] with massive numbers of forces outnumbering safavids couldn't take the simple fort of kandahar as their artillery was ineffective compared to safavids.So while mughal artillery remained master of the field well into 1730s till time of bahadur shah,it was nothing to brag about outside india.
Cavalry was the strike arm of the mughal army....
elephants were used until akbar with good results.After that they became obsolete due to gunpoweder proliferation and cost and were relegated to mobile command centres.
The cavalry was prestigious,well paid and well equipped.
The baburid cavalry was superb,excellent archers and ferocious.When the empire expanded,They drew contingents from the pashtuns and other tribes plus most of the nobility.From time of akbar the excellent rajput cavalry was also available.
But as the empire grew bigger and wealthier,they grew soft...prime example of a mongol generals' quote-
''You could conquer the world on horseback but u couldn't rule it from there''
Corruption,lavish wealthy lifestyle ,lack of earlier ferocity,increasing overreliance on sheer numbers to win[remember babur had won with small but mobile and motivated forces],increasingly bad generalship..many of the nobility were addicted to drugs and wine. Even the vaunted rajputs took large quantities of opium before battle to enter battle frenzy and were addicts.So cavalry lost its earlier edge too towards the end.And this became apparent against the maratha wars.
Another large weakness was logistics.mughal army simply had too much tail than teeth.Logistics train was like a mobile city.slow ,lumbering with women and children.This was another weakness exposed in maratha wars.
Mughals kept using old matchlocks and never truly upgraded their field artillery,had no navy.
In terms of wealth and land,they were truly a great power but global power projection not that much.

Thanks for the post...

One thing I was wondering...Why did Mughals never established a formidable navy to project power further? They had SO MUCH WEALTH!!!!! The reason I think is that Mughals did not need to project power..I mean, they had such a vast empire....SUCH wealth...ruling over 1/4th of humanity already...they just had everything..so instinctively, they never felt the need to project their power globally and go to Persia, Westwards etc for resources...

I mean, Europe didn't colonized Africans b/c they hated blacks...they did it because they needed to..They couldn't not have survived in competition without the resources of new world etc...but for Mughals, there was no evolutionary 'push' to project power in far lands..they were so wealthy, so vast, and ruling over sooooooooooo many people..that they just didn't need it...

What do you think about that?
 
Thanks for the post...

One thing I was wondering...Why did Mughals never established a formidable navy to project power further? They had SO MUCH WEALTH!!!!! The reason I think is that Mughals did not need to project power..I mean, they had such a vast empire....SUCH wealth...ruling over 1/4th of humanity already...they just had everything..so instinctively, they never felt the need to project their power globally and go to Persia, Westwards etc for resources...

I mean, Europe didn't colonized Africans b/c they hated blacks...they did it because they needed to..They couldn't not have survived in competition without the resources of new world etc...but for Mughals, there was no evolutionary 'push' to project power in far lands..they were so wealthy, so vast, and ruling over sooooooooooo many people..that they just didn't need it...

What do you think about that?

Europe had priority to navy due to 3 factors,1]ottomans/persia controlled land route for trade and levied heavy tariffs.They were desperate to find alternate sea route.This lead to columbus discovery.
2]Naval race,due to control of spice route to asia and then for colonies after 1492.
3]Naval competition with ottomans.

While these 3 fueled naval growth in europe.
Mughals were basically a land power with central asian origins and had no concept of navy from their landlocked origin.
Another reason was they didn't NEeD trade with europe,europe needed trade with asia mostly.So the requirement wasn't there economically for mughals to build up merchant marine,and without merchant marine there is not much reason for navy to exist.
Before the discovery of new world and flowing in of south american mayan and incan gold bullion,europe didn't have much to trade with asian powers.After flow of wealth they traded mostly gold.
Later they traded in weaponry..latest gunpowder weapons.And also military experts and doctors.
 
Mughal empire was a great regional power of its time no doubt, but it was certainly not a super power

ottoman empire on the other hand was a true global super power, the other two muslim global super powers being the Ummayad caliphate, & the Abbasid caliphate, these three back in their times were like the United states, Soviets union & British empire of the day , all three were great expansionist, their rule spanning continent's of Asia, Africa & Europe ! they possessed lands from 2 million plus sq mi to up to 5.8 million sq mi !

while the Mughals & Safavid empire back then were more like U.K , France , Japan & Germany of today, they just couldn't expand beyond the Indian subcontinent & Persia, you cannot be considered a global super power till you don't expand beyond your peripheries
 
Well, I understand.

Roman and Persian empires influenced humanity beyond their borders....

But Mughal Empire definitely goes beyond than the 'greatpower' label...

Lets just say that it was greater than greatpower but not a super power..

Mughal empire was Turk/Mongol, they were limited to South Asia, and even that they barely maintained.
 
Remember Mughals built Taj Mahal. And other monuments. They left a legacy for the world. During Akbar's rule, the Mughals had almost all of the Indian subcontinent under its rule. It was a great power, but to call it a super power would be too much.
 
Three events that was greatest acheivement of Muslims in India

Mahmud of Ghazni - Destroying of Somnath temple

Destroying of corrupt, self indulging Muslim Sultanate of India

Advent of Babur into India
 
Three events that was greatest acheivement of Muslims in India

Mahmud of Ghazni - Destroying of Somnath temple

Destroying of corrupt, self indulging Muslim Sultanate of India

Advent of Babur into India



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Triple facepalm.

Here's what i think 3 great achievements of muslim dynasties in indian history.

1.Building of Beautiful architecture,monuments,art and culture and legacy.
2.Protected the subcontinent from mongol devastation.
3.Political stability due to centralized structure,this led to growth of trade and commerce and rise of urban centres.Reversing trend of decline of urban centres and trade during early medieval era due to rampant feudalism.
 
The Mughal empire shall remain controversial. And GDP of subcontinent actually shrunk during the Mughal empire it was more before them despite endless riches.

It was a unstable empire and was so incompetent that it did not allow its people to create wealth for themselves and for the empire. But they levied taxes that made them unpopular.

Despite riches they could not withstand the west because they were corrupt and centralized power needlessly.
 

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