Do we (Paks) want to copy Chinese culture or just JF-17?

[FaujHistorian]

Yes, you're right. The Holy Q'uran has so many references to scientific phenomena , that was way beyond the understanding of medics some 2000 years ago.

Surah Al-Baqarah, ayah 269, "Allah grants wisdom to whom He pleases and to whom wisdom is granted indeed he receives an overflowing benefit".

Even the Almighty endorses to us, his creation, to learn. Allah tells us that wisdom brings "overflowing benefit". Indeed, it does !

Sadly for Pakistanis, the more religious someone is, the less he believes in learning new things.

 

[Aepsilons]

Sadly for Pakistanis, the more religious someone is, the less he believes in learning new things.

Balanced view is best, my friend. We can still Glorify the Almighty by understanding and learning the laws and theorems that He was the author of. After all, He is is the wellspring form which all things came from....

Physics: Quantum Mechanics, Medicine, Pharmacology, Biomechanics, Physiology, Chemistry, Human behavior et al. He made it even before we could name it.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Sadly for Pakistanis, the more religious someone is, the less he believes in learning new things.

Success in my view is about finding solutions to a given problem.

To be able to find solutions one needs to be knowledgeable

One's knowledge is predicated on the quality and length of one's education.

Without education expecting someone to succeed is illogical.

Reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity.

Doing the same experiment over and over and expecting different results.

I have tried before, you can try again and maybe find out how to fix our educational system.

 

[Gunsnroses]

Brilliant thought provoking posts Nihonjin1051. Thank you, Sir!

 

[Aepsilons]

Thank you.

for anyone wanting to improve as a nation in Asia, japanese culture and its philosophers and their teachings offer tremendous learning opportunity.

I wish I could establish a Japanese Philosophy Institute in Pakistan some day.

A place where Pakistanis can learn from the current and past achievements of Japanese people.

It is not all about products like Toyota and Honda.

The real essence of a nation is its philosophy and culture that produces things and institutions like Toyota and Honda.



p.s. Toyota and Honda are the most trusted among all of the car brands in Pakistan so I used these as symbols as part of my discussion.

Thank you for the profound thoughts, @FaujHistorian , and I agree that there is much our two countries can learn from each other. If you don't mind my asking, are you in the field of academia?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

@Nihonjin1051 Correct me if I am wrong.


Japan was a closed island and Japanese refused to allow other countries and traditions in their land until America forced them to open ports for trade. Then Japanese thought that they were weak and they started to first buy from America and then they copied from them until they started to build on their own.

Japan had one advantage, they had old strong feudal system and a strong emperor. Whatever their emperor ordered they did without questioning him. That is how Japan progressed. They had one central organized command which viewed itself as weak and wanted to become strong through learning. After decades of copying Americans and others and learning from them Japan became industrialized and strong, that is how they achieved their status as powerful nation before world war two. After the war Japanese already had capability to learn and create. They simply focused their learning capability towards technology and now Japan after seven decades has the capability to stand in the ranks of nations who have the abilities to do original research.

Now lets look at China. China was ruled by a weak emperor. It also had feudal system but their feudal system was divided, that made them weak. After the war communist system emerged which united the country. They were called "weak man of asia" before their independence. They wanted to be strong too just like Japan wanted to be strong, and with one party communism they found one voice which they lacked under a weak emperor. After many years under one central organized command China progressed by copying and learning and achieved knowledge which allowed them to be capable today. They copied and still to this day copy but they are at a point where after one or two decades will be where Japan is today, or may be sooner.

After looking at Japan and China lets now look at Pakistan. Pakistan is at a position where it has feudal system which manifests itself in the form of political parties and military. Each political party and military is trying to dominate Pakistan's politics and business. Unlike Japan Pakistan does not have a strong emperor and Pakistan does not have one central organized command. But Pakistan has one thing in common with Japan and China, Pakistan is weak and is struggling to gain strength. Now how will Pakistan achieve what Japan and China achieved is a difficult question to answer. But if we look at Japan and China of past, we can see that they both copied western cultures and education to progress. How much of that western culture they kept till today is not the real question. The real question is that they kept education they learned from west and improved it for their use.

In today's Japanese society western culture is evident. Japanese not only copy western culture quickly they change it too because that is what Japanese do, they learn and change things to their needs. Japanese have become so proficient in learning new things and changing them that they stay ahead of most nations.

Chinese on the other hand are cautious in nature. They learn, think and evaluate new things before they copy. What will Chinese do with respect to culture is difficult to predict.

The question is from where Pakistan will find its unity. Unity along with Faith and Discipline which Quaid-e-Azam M. A. Jinnah wanted us to have. We to this day have not united as one nation. And our priority should be education and unity but we are divided. We should have some policies on which we should be one. Obviously we should not have one person, one organization or one party ruling us because we all know the dangers of one man rule, one party rule and military rule. Japan and many other nation have seen the horrors of one entity's rule.

The answer to the question, should Pakistan copy one nation's culture or just its technology, can be answered by evaluating how Sir Syed Ahmed Khan cautioned Muslims not to fall behind in education. Sir Syed wanted Muslims to learn western education so they can progress in modern world. Although to learn western education we had to copy some of western culture, but the outcome of that education was that leaders like M. A. Jinnah and Allama M. Iqbal were born and they achieved Pakistan. And if we evaluate ourselves today, after one hundred and forty years of Sir Syed's Aligarh Movement, we can get the answer of the question, have we copied British culture or have we copied only their technology. Sadly we still need to do more in education to progress. While China and Japan were under one system, we were changing system again and again, and because of that we are still behind.

 

[Aepsilons]

@Nihonjin1051 Correct me if I am wrong.


Japan was a closed island and Japanese refused to allow other countries and traditions in their land until America forced them to open ports for trade. Then Japanese thought that they were weak and they started to first buy from America and then they copied from them until they started to build on their own.

Japan had one advantage, they had old strong feudal system and a strong emperor. Whatever their emperor ordered they did without questioning him. That is how Japan progressed. They had one central organized command which viewed itself as weak and wanted to become strong through learning. After decades of copying Americans and others and learning from them Japan became industrialized and strong, that is how they achieved their status as powerful nation before world war two. After the war Japanese already had capability to learn and create. They simply focused their learning capability towards technology and now Japan after seven decades has the capability to stand in the ranks of nations who have the abilities to do original research.

Now lets look at China. China was ruled by a weak emperor. It also had feudal system but their feudal system was divided, that made them weak. After the war communist system emerged which united the country. They were called "weak man of asia" before their independence. They wanted to be strong too just like Japan wanted to be strong, and with one party communism they found one voice which they lacked under a weak emperor. After many years under one central organized command China progressed by copying and learning and achieved knowledge which allowed them to be capable today. They copied and still to this day copy but they are at a point where after one or two decades will be where Japan is today, or may be sooner.

After looking at Japan and China lets now look at Pakistan. Pakistan is at a position where it has feudal system which manifests itself in the form of political parties and military. Each political party and military is trying to dominate Pakistan's politics and business. Unlike Japan Pakistan does not have a strong emperor and Pakistan does not have one central organized command. But Pakistan has one thing in common with Japan and China, Pakistan is weak and is struggling to gain strength. Now how will Pakistan achieve what Japan and China achieved is a difficult question to answer. But if we look at Japan and China of past, we can see that they both copied western cultures and education to progress. How much of that western culture they kept till today is not the real question. The real question is that they kept education they learned from west and improved it for their use.

In today's Japanese society western culture is evident. Japanese not only copy western culture quickly they change it too because that is what Japanese do, they learn and change things to their needs. Japanese have become so proficient in learning new things and changing them that they stay ahead of most nations.

Chinese on the other hand are cautious in nature. They learn, think and evaluate new things before they copy. What will Chinese do with respect to culture is difficult to predict.

The question is from where Pakistan will find its unity. Unity along with Faith and Discipline which Quaid-e-Azam M. A. Jinnah wanted us to have. We to this day have not united as one nation. And our priority should be education and unity but we are divided. We should have some policies on which we should be one. Obviously we should not have one person, one organization or one party ruling us because we all know the dangers of one man rule, one party rule and military rule. Japan and many other nation have seen the horrors of one entity's rule.

The answer to the question, should Pakistan copy one nation's culture or just its technology, can be answered by evaluating how Sir Syed Ahmed Khan cautioned Muslims not to fall behind in education. Sir Syed wanted Muslims to learn western education so they can progress in modern world. Although to learn western education we had to copy some of western culture, but the outcome of that education was that leaders like M. A. Jinnah and Allama M. Iqbal were born and they achieved Pakistan. And if we evaluate ourselves today, after one hundred and forty years of Sir Syed's Aligarh Movement, we can get the answer of the question, have we copied British culture or have we copied only their technology. Sadly we still need to do more in education to progress. While China and Japan were under one system, we were changing system again and again, and because of that we are still behind.

Sir, that was a profound post. I am sure within the ebb of time, as the Pakistani Government stabilizes its frontiers, and as it increases its development of infrastructure, the standard of living , basic necessities will be provided for throughout the country. There is one point that I am in agreement with you , which you have mentioned , the factor of education. This singular factor will be what uplifts all Pakistan into the greatness that awaits her.

Peace and development is not easy to attain, and sometimes one's nation and people have to fight hard for this. Pakistan deserves this. And I am confident that Pakistan will attain this, and more. Al-hamdulillah.

 

[Pakistanisage]

I am sorry to say Faujhistorian, this thread of yours is not making any sense to me. We don't need to copy anyone but create a Culture of Research and Development and Promote Science and Technology in Pakistan

 

[Cherokee]

I am sorry to say Faujhistorian, this thread of yours is not making any sense to me. We don't need to copy anyone but create a Culture of Research and Development and Promote Science and Technology in Pakistan

Naqal ke liye bhi Aqal chahiye hoti hai . That is the crux of whole post i think . Research everywhere apart from early gainers ( Western countries ) started by copying , TOT , technical help , legal/illegal help . Later when ground work for that was set they started ( they as in Japan , China , even south Korea) started their own and look where they are .

 

[FaujHistorian]

Success in my view is about finding solutions to a given problem.

To be able to find solutions one needs to be knowledgeable

One's knowledge is predicated on the quality and length of one's education.

Without education expecting someone to succeed is illogical.

Reminds me of Einstein's definition of insanity.

Doing the same experiment over and over and expecting different results.

I have tried before, you can try again and maybe find out how to fix our educational system.

Our education system in incompatible with our needs. We have a system that only produces baboos and clerks.


We need to update our education system that produces inventors and world class techs.

And for that an excellent example is already there.

No it doesn't come from Arab lands

It comes from 18th and 19th century Germany.


Hope you understand.

 

[Ra'ad]

It comes from 18th and 19th century Germany.

What did you mean by that? I didn't understand.

 

[FaujHistorian]

What did you mean by that? I didn't understand.

Germany's traditional education system trained its students early for industry floor internship.

so by the time they graduated from High school, they were already trained to work in modern industry.

On the other hand, in Pakistan, you cannot expect a 12th grade certificate holder to be expert ready to start career in heavy mechanical industry.

We follow British-Indian education system that was mostly geared towards producing clerks.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Aepsilons]

Germany's traditional education system trained its students early for industry floor internship.

so by the time they graduated from High school, they were already trained to work in modern industry.

On the other hand, in Pakistan, you cannot expect a 12th grade certificate holder to be expert ready to start career in heavy mechanical industry.

We follow British-Indian education system that was mostly geared towards producing clerks.

Hope this clarifies.

I agree. IN Japan, we follow the Prussian style of education. As early as high school, Japanese students can opt to start summer co-ops in industry. Co-ops can be in engineering, nursing, medicine, administration, podiatry, dentistry, computer science etc. Actually , when i was in high school as early as my 2nd year in high school, i started doing co-ops. This helps students to identify where they want to specialize in by college .

We follow British-Indian education system that was mostly geared towards producing clerks.

The British educational system, from my experience with Oxford grads, tend to focus on philosophical quandaries. They produce great lawyers, bureaucrats.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I agree. IN Japan, we follow the Prussian style of education. As early as high school, Japanese students can opt to start summer co-ops in industry. Co-ops can be in engineering, nursing, medicine, administration, podiatry, dentistry, computer science etc. Actually , when i was in high school as early as my 2nd year in high school, i started doing co-ops. This helps students to identify where they want to specialize in by college .



The British educational system, from my experience with Oxford grads, tend to focus on philosophical quandaries. They produce great lawyers, bureaucrats.

This is kind of similar to Japanese military setup.

If I understood it correctly, back in 18th-19th century, Japanese setup their Navy on British model, but their army (land forces) were setup on Prussian model. (there was no airfoce back then )

This is the Japanese quality that I greatly admire.

To smartly pick and choose the best available system.

 

[Aepsilons]

This is kind of similar to Japanese military setup.

If I understood it correctly, back in 18th-19th century, Japanese setup their Navy on British model, but their army (land forces) were setup on Prussian model. (there was no airfoce back then )

This is the Japanese quality that I greatly admire.

To smartly pick and choose the best available system.

Yes! Wow you know a lot about Japanese and Prussian / German training processes. Impressive !

The same is retained to this day, too. We try to keep up to date with foreign methodology, and to see whether or not it can be applicable to ours, and if new concepts can be integrated.