Do we (Paks) want to copy Chinese culture or just JF-17?

[Ra'ad]

Japan copied every thing of west, later they create their own..............etc.

If Pakistan learned from China, then they create their own................etc.

And when is that gonna be? Bro do note that China got independence after Pakistan. Both countries were in a poor, bad state. Japan started from scratch too after 1945 when ww2 ended. So compare these 3 countries as siblings.

We can 'learn from China and create our own....etc' just like you mentioned but if we could do that...why did we waste these 60 years. Why are they developed, and we are thinking of starting to develop if we copy the chinese. We need to ask ourselves: what have we been doing these past 60 years? And what have they been doing? Why did they develop and we didn't when we started in the same time period?

I am in no way sceptic about our qom. We Pakistani's have great potential. 'Agar zara nam ho to ye zameen bari zarkhez hai'....i believe in this. We need to wake up...if we are sleeping as a qom. We need to learn from other successful qoms if that is what is required. We need to identify what's missing in us, and plug that hole so that we can start on the path to a developed nation.

I hope you get the purpose of this thread. Its not about jf17s, or f22p frigates, or al-khalid tanks. Its about Us. We..the nation.

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian
Your question is correct but seems that it's usual bitter tone has objected some people.
Let us assume that there is a class. The class has multiple students, majority of high scorers.However,after gradation..amazingly one of the most average student discovers the solution of any unknown disease while rest position holders were left behind.
So,what is the extract here?
It is -Inception,discipline and dedication.
The current west is like that average student .They were once in dark ages but they later on realized and made inventions ,leaving Arabs and Asians behind.
When nawabs of India were throwing money lavishly over women-lord Rutherford was passing x-rays over same gold foil to discover structure of atom.
It is a blessing of god that Pakistan realizes and becomes nuclear state-but to come on west's level(forget China, I am taking west as example)we must have discipline first,then together with faith and dedication we can come to high level.
Now let us continue the example...
The invention was made by the average most student of class as a result of which his status was changed-now he was leading and rests were following to learn that how did he the average most student come to make such a huge discovery? and the reason was that his thinking orientation was different and well distinct as compare to rest students.
So,moral here is that we must be disciplined first, then have faith and dedication to make new things.Some times new ideas can be done by following lead with patience and knowledge.
Regards

Please read adam smiths wealth of nations.

you may end up changing your mind about the West.

They were the top students then as now.

Peace

 

[Genesis]

@FaujHistorian

One of China's Qing dynasty's best reformers said that he has so many regrets to his life, not because he didn't try his best, he did, but because he was not a reformer, but a carpenter.

What did this mean? He would buy weapons and build banks, while also doing business and build factories, but the fundamentals of the empire has not changed. He is simply a carpenter that fixes a shaky house by cover it up now and again.

When rain comes, it's still ok, he can reapply some patches, but when storm hits, the house is done.

He was brutally defeated in Sino Japanese war. Gone are his reforms within a few month.
I don't want to be too blunt, but just having JF-17 and these weapon system doesn't change the fundamentals of Pakistan. Real strength comes from core changes. Today's China is not stronger than the China of old because we got better weapons or more money, but because the core of the country is changed.

What changes Pakistan needs to make? Don't know, What changes Pakistan can make? Don't know.

But the answer is definitely not nothing.

I don't know Pakistan's situation well enough to answer, but I will say if the answer people come up with is democracy, then we may see some more not so great years ahead.

 

[Sasquatch]

I see a lot of chest beating (and well deserved in some cases) about joint projects with china,

where we copy Chinese defense tech
then use our labor to produce more of the defense items copied.

However I do not see a serious effort on our part to ask a simple question.

--- Are we trying to copy JF-17
without ever realizing

-- that JF-17 is the product of Chinese culture

And if we agree on this,

Do we want to copy just the things like JF-17

without ever becoming "chinese" in our pursuit of basic knowledge, traditions, habits, etc that allowed Chinese to build high tech equipment?

If we don't ask this question,
or don't take an action

Then we'll remain a passive and dumb copy cats for a long long long time.

And it is likely that Chinese will start shunning us because the only thing common between us and them will be our passive copying of their machines.

We'll never be able to build and MAInTAIN people to people contacts due to stark difference in culture.


Thoughts?

comments?


@Slav Defence, @Luftwaffe, @WebMaster, @Jungibaaz, @jaibi, @notsuperstitious, @Azlan Haider, @ajpirzada, @DESERT FIGHTER, @AgNoStiC MuSliM, @Jazzbot, @Jf Thunder, @Hyperion, @JonAsad, @Nihonjin1051, @cirr

There's no need to be Chinese, I have similar criticism of China needing to be more innovative like the US that requires more risk taking and out of the box thinking alien to Chinese way of thinking. There's no need to be more American for us because we are slowly doing that.

 

[Aepsilons]

@FaujHistorian ,

I believe that each nation has its own unique traits that define its national character. The Americans have a unique trait -- centered on individuality and problem based skills, as well as their creativity. The Japanese are unique , in regards to the corporate structure by manifesting our Kaizen culture, which focuses on perfecting mechanisms, identifying problems in a team, addressing the problem, and establishing solution(s). Pakistan is renowned for their determination, passion for learning, and their zeal to national integrity. I believe that Pakistan's potential for growth is limitless. In my line of work, which is in academia, I have come into contact several graduate students in the fields of life sciences, engineering, economics -- who are originally from Pakistan. They are successful here in the United States, and even in Japan (believe it or not, there are alot of post-docs from Pakistan who re working on research in Japanese universities).

I believe that Pakistani Government needs to invest more in schools, universities, research laboratories and to mold the youth in this direction.

Now to address your premise in regards to research and technology with China. I don't think there is anything wrong for Pakistani scientists , politicians and civilians to admire the Chinese work ethic, the Chinese abide by their unique Confucian culture. Perhaps Pakistanis can emulate certain aspects. I will end this post in reiterating the importance of education. And only through education can Pakistan realize her manifest destiny. It is through this singular factor that can contribute qualitatively in the fields of economics, politics, military, and overall demography.


I remain,
Sincerely,
@Nihonjin1051

 

[Jungibaaz]

I see a lot of chest beating (and well deserved in some cases) about joint projects with china,

where we copy Chinese defense tech
then use our labor to produce more of the defense items copied.

However I do not see a serious effort on our part to ask a simple question.

--- Are we trying to copy JF-17
without ever realizing

-- that JF-17 is the product of Chinese culture

And if we agree on this,

Do we want to copy just the things like JF-17

without ever becoming "chinese" in our pursuit of basic knowledge, traditions, habits, etc that allowed Chinese to build high tech equipment?

If we don't ask this question,
or don't take an action

Then we'll remain a passive and dumb copy cats for a long long long time.

And it is likely that Chinese will start shunning us because the only thing common between us and them will be our passive copying of their machines.

We'll never be able to build and MAInTAIN people to people contacts due to stark difference in culture.


Thoughts?

comments?


@Slav Defence, @Luftwaffe, @WebMaster, @Jungibaaz, @jaibi, @notsuperstitious, @Azlan Haider, @ajpirzada, @DESERT FIGHTER, @AgNoStiC MuSliM, @Jazzbot, @Jf Thunder, @Hyperion, @JonAsad, @Nihonjin1051, @cirr

It's a valid concern, but I think for now the 'copying' is justified. Ours is an infant industry that cannot fill PAF requirements> Sir, make no mistake, the JF-17, a capable, reliable and affordable platform is a PAF need, and it did not come about from a PAF just taking a wild stab at the prospect of a partially homegrown jet. The PAF requirement trumps the need to be original for now. It's be nice, but I think even with the JF-17 we've been really pushing PAC, we'll gain a lot from this.

Now if you'll observe, working with the Chinese, PAC engineers have gained a whole lot more experience and ability. The way we did with the Al Khalid, back then it was pretty much a Chinese tank, now with the AK I upgrade, most if not all of the effort was done by Pakistani HIT itself.

It's a balancing act, and for now I think PAF has done it well. If you'd asked me if we'd have gone this far some 10-15 years back, I'd be shocked.

 

[Aepsilons]

It's a valid concern, but I think for now the 'copying' is justified. Ours is an infant industry that cannot fill PAF requirements> Sir, make no mistake, the JF-17, a capable, reliable and affordable platform is a PAF need, and it did not come about from a PAF just taking a wild stab at the prospect of a partially homegrown jet. The PAF requirement trumps the need to be original for now. It's be nice, but I think even with the JF-17 we've been really pushing PAC, we'll gain a lot from this.

Now if you'll observe, working with the Chinese, PAC engineers have gained a whole lot more experience and ability. The way we did with the Al Khalid, back then it was pretty much a Chinese tank, now with the AK I upgrade, most if not all of the effort was done by Pakistani HIT itself.

It's a balancing act, and for now I think PAF has done it well. If you'd asked me if we'd have gone this far some 10-15 years back, I'd be shocked.

In defense of Pakistani military industry, every organization draws inspiration from another organization's products. The evolution of the aeroplane is a direct result of this. The Chinese, too, are known for their reverse engineering of Soviet technology and even American technology. I mean, the J-10 is a product of reverse engineering of the F-16, the J-11 is a product of reverse engineering of Sukhoi Su-27.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Chinese/Japanese people have a common vision for themselves and for their country which is lacking in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and even in India. You have to educate masses and you also need more skilled workers in order to progress your country. Chinese/Japanese are fond of technology . We waste our energy in less significant things. Culture certainly plays a role if it promote peaceful co-existence, hard work, team work, dedication, persistence, determination but quality of education systems matter the most .They work hard and try to improve themselves instead of waiting for the government to do it for them. No other country or government has lifted more people out of absolute poverty and misery in such a short period of time.

 

[Aepsilons]

Chinese/Japanese people have a common vision for themselves and for their country which is lacking in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and even in India. You have to educate masses and you also need more skilled workers in order to progress your country. Chinese/Japanese are fond of technology . We waste our energy in less significant things. Culture certainly plays a role if it promote peaceful co-existence, hard work, team work, dedication, persistence, determination but quality of education systems matter the most .They work hard and try to improve themselves instead of waiting for the government to do it for them. No other country or government has lifted more people out of absolute poverty and misery in such a short period of time.

Hi, @Proudpakistaniguy ,

I believe that countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh are capable of the same feats.

To be honest with you, before Japan was industrialized and forced to open to the west in the mid 19th century, the country lived in relative isolation from the world. The country was profoundly poor, there was no major industry in the country, no major ports, no nationalized military. The country lived , relatively, as a feudal state all the way up to the 1840s.

When Japan was forced to open to western trade, by Commodore Matthew C. Perry (United States Navy). In fact they threatened to use their awesome firepower on us if Japan did not open to western trade; and thus the Treaty of Kanagawa was signed.

Immediately, we realized the abject technological inferiority we were in , as compared to the West. After the Meiji Restoration, the first priority of the Imperial Government was to adopt Western-Style Education. Japanese were sent abroad ; to England, France, Germany, Russia, the United States, Italy -- and to learn everything they could from the west. Be it Philosophy, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Economics, Engineering et al, and to bring it back to Japan. Thus, the first modern-Japanese schools were based on Western teaching methodology.

It was this very notion of western education that helped propel the country from abject poverty, to an industrial power in the 20th century.

After Japan's defeat in World War II, the nation was in absolute ruins. Our cities were flattened, over 3 million of our citizens were dead, the war effort had taken its toll on Japan militarily, economically, politically and spiritually. But we retained our understanding and emphasis on....EDUCATION. It was education, my friend, that allowed the country to rise from the ashes of war to become what it is today.

This is why, I always relegate supreme importance on education. Brute force and military, alone, cannot propel the nation to its destiny without an educated mass. This is why I believe Education is the tool for Pakistan.

If Japan, once a feudal and backwards nation, can do it. There is no reason why Pakistan cannot. Pakistan can.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Your annual budget is like $6 billion dollars - for new equipment, upgrades, etc. How much of that can you possibly put into R&D? Most of which will go into missile tech. Most fighter programs alone cost more than your budget.

Riding off of China's decades of toiling is a good strategy.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Hi, @Proudpakistaniguy ,

I believe that countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh are capable of the same feats.

To be honest with you, before Japan was industrialized and forced to open to the west in the mid 19th century, the country lived in relative isolation from the world. The country was profoundly poor, there was no major industry in the country, no major ports, no nationalized military. The country lived , relatively, as a feudal state all the way up to the 1840s.

When Japan was forced to open to western trade, by Commodore Matthew C. Perry (United States Navy). In fact they threatened to use their awesome firepower on us if Japan did not open to western trade; and thus the Treaty of Kanagawa was signed.

Immediately, we realized the abject technological inferiority we were in , as compared to the West. After the Meiji Restoration, the first priority of the Imperial Government was to adopt Western-Style Education. Japanese were sent abroad ; to England, France, Germany, Russia, the United States, Italy -- and to learn everything they could from the west. Be it Philosophy, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Economics, Engineering et al, and to bring it back to Japan. Thus, the first modern-Japanese schools were based on Western teaching methodology.

It was this very notion of western education that helped propel the country from abject poverty, to an industrial power in the 20th century.

After Japan's defeat in World War II, the nation was in absolute ruins. Our cities were flattened, over 3 million of our citizens were dead, the war effort had taken its toll on Japan militarily, economically, politically and spiritually. But we retained our understanding and emphasis on....EDUCATION. It was education, my friend, that allowed the country to rise from the ashes of war to become what it is today.

This is why, I always relegate supreme importance on education. Brute force and military, alone, cannot propel the nation to its destiny without an educated mass. This is why I believe Education is the tool for Pakistan.

If Japan, once a feudal and backwards nation, can do it. There is no reason why Pakistan cannot. Pakistan can.

I agree with you and i never said we cannot but i said we don't (because of laziness or may be we are wasting our time in other useless things which are less important. You know Irony is our religion emphasis on education more than anything else

 

[FaujHistorian]

Hi, @Proudpakistaniguy ,

I believe that countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh are capable of the same feats.

To be honest with you, before Japan was industrialized and forced to open to the west in the mid 19th century, the country lived in relative isolation from the world. The country was profoundly poor, there was no major industry in the country, no major ports, no nationalized military. The country lived , relatively, as a feudal state all the way up to the 1840s.

When Japan was forced to open to western trade, by Commodore Matthew C. Perry (United States Navy). In fact they threatened to use their awesome firepower on us if Japan did not open to western trade; and thus the Treaty of Kanagawa was signed.

Immediately, we realized the abject technological inferiority we were in , as compared to the West. After the Meiji Restoration, the first priority of the Imperial Government was to adopt Western-Style Education. Japanese were sent abroad ; to England, France, Germany, Russia, the United States, Italy -- and to learn everything they could from the west. Be it Philosophy, Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Economics, Engineering et al, and to bring it back to Japan. Thus, the first modern-Japanese schools were based on Western teaching methodology.

It was this very notion of western education that helped propel the country from abject poverty, to an industrial power in the 20th century.

After Japan's defeat in World War II, the nation was in absolute ruins. Our cities were flattened, over 3 million of our citizens were dead, the war effort had taken its toll on Japan militarily, economically, politically and spiritually. But we retained our understanding and emphasis on....EDUCATION. It was education, my friend, that allowed the country to rise from the ashes of war to become what it is today.

This is why, I always relegate supreme importance on education. Brute force and military, alone, cannot propel the nation to its destiny without an educated mass. This is why I believe Education is the tool for Pakistan.

If Japan, once a feudal and backwards nation, can do it. There is no reason why Pakistan cannot. Pakistan can.

excellent post.


What/how do you think about the role of japanese thinkers and activists like Fukuzawa Yukichi?


For Pakistanis who don't know Fukuzawa, here is a summary.



Fukuzawa Yukichi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

excellent post.


What/how do you think about the role of japanese thinkers and activists like Fukuzawa Yukichi?


For Pakistanis who don't know Fukuzawa, here is a summary.



Fukuzawa Yukichi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was pivotal during the Restoration period, and was one of the leading academics during his time. To be quite honest, one thing that I admired about Yukichi Fukuzawa was the emphasis of learning the Western Model and its applicability to the Japanese sense. He is considered in Japan to be like Voltaire, the French Enlightenment Thinker. He was able to "think outside the box", to adopt western methods and not hold a sense of foreboding. He was revolutionary.

I'm surprised you know about him, @FaujHistorian ! Hats off to you.

 

[FaujHistorian]

He was pivotal during the Restoration period, and was one of the leading academics during his time. To be quite honest, one thing that I admired about Yukichi Fukuzawa was the emphasis of learning the Western Model and its applicability to the Japanese sense. He is considered in Japan to be like Voltaire, the French Enlightenment Thinker. He was able to "think outside the box", to adopt western methods and not hold a sense of foreboding. He was revolutionary.

I'm surprised you know about him, @FaujHistorian ! Hats off to you.

Thank you.

for anyone wanting to improve as a nation in Asia, japanese culture and its philosophers and their teachings offer tremendous learning opportunity.

I wish I could establish a Japanese Philosophy Institute in Pakistan some day.

A place where Pakistanis can learn from the current and past achievements of Japanese people.

It is not all about products like Toyota and Honda.

The real essence of a nation is its philosophy and culture that produces things and institutions like Toyota and Honda.



p.s. Toyota and Honda are the most trusted among all of the car brands in Pakistan so I used these as symbols as part of my discussion.

 

[Aepsilons]

You know Irony is our religion emphasis on education more than anything else

Yes, you're right. The Holy Q'uran has so many references to scientific phenomena , that was way beyond the understanding of medics some 2000 years ago.

Surah Al-Baqarah, ayah 269, "Allah grants wisdom to whom He pleases and to whom wisdom is granted indeed he receives an overflowing benefit".

Even the Almighty endorses to us, his creation, to learn. Allah tells us that wisdom brings "overflowing benefit". Indeed, it does !