Disproving some genocide claims

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^Duh. I don't expect Pakistani generals to admit that they killed these people.

The second post validates the Pakistani general, and your source offers no hard evidence supporting the allegations either.

 

[Vinod2070]

Are you denying that Yahya Khan stated these word?

Or that the order was implemented?

 

[Flintlock]

The second post validates the Pakistani general, and your source offers no hard evidence supporting the allegations either.

How does it validate the General?

All I can see so far is the defendant's words saying "I didn't do it".

In East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) [General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan and his top generals] also planned to murder its Bengali intellectual, cultural, and political elite. They also planned to indiscriminately murder hundreds of thousands of its Hindus and drive the rest into India. And they planned to destroy its economic base to insure that it would be subordinate to West Pakistan for at least a generation to come. This despicable and cutthroat plan was outright genocide

STATISTICS OF PAKISTAN'S DEMOCIDE

B'deshi Source:
Martyr Intellectual day 2002: Homage to my martyr colleagues. Ajoy Roy

__________________

December 14th is mourned in B'desh as the day of martyred intellectuals. Am I to believe that they celebrate this day on a whim?

EDITED

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Are you denying that Yahya Khan stated these word?

Or that the order was implemented?

The evidence clearly shows the 'order' was not implemented, or if killings were ordered, they never reached the levels you have argued.

Whether Yahya actually said that I cannot say - there seems to be only one actual source for this reported claim, and the number is identical to that spouted by apologists for the Indian view point on this, so I am skeptical as to its authenticity.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How does it validate the General?

All I can see so far is the defendant's words saying "I didn't do it".

In East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) [General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan and his top generals] also planned to murder its Bengali intellectual, cultural, and political elite. They also planned to indiscriminately murder hundreds of thousands of its Hindus and drive the rest into India. And they planned to destroy its economic base to insure that it would be subordinate to West Pakistan for at least a generation to come. This despicable and cutthroat plan was outright genocide

STATISTICS OF PAKISTAN'S DEMOCIDE

B'deshi Source:
Martyr Intellectual day 2002: Homage to my martyr colleagues. Ajoy Roy

__________________

December 14th is mourned in B'desh as the day of martyred intellectuals. Am I to believe that they celebrate this day on a whim?

In any case, the loss of intellectuals is apparent, with people like Munshi still filling the void.

Enough of the insults please, once can make a point without resorting to that kind of attitude, especially when the individual concerned isn't even responding to you in this instance.

I still see no evidence, you say its a general saying he didn't do it, but I don't see the people making this allegation proving their case either. Innocent till proved guilty.

The second post validates my argument that the atrocities were nowhere close to the numbers being claimed by India and some others. Therefore, if one claim could be exaggerated to such an extent, why not this one.

 

[Flintlock]

Enough of the insults please, once can make a point without resorting to that kind of attitude, especially when the individual concerned isn't even responding to you in this instance.

I did not insult Munshi, as far as I can see.

I still see no evidence, you say its a general saying he didn't do it, but I don't see the people making this allegation proving their case either. Innocent till proved guilty.

Well, if that's the way you want it to be....so be it.

You know and I know that there is not going to be a genocide trial.

So lets stick to the happy version, since it makes us happy.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Here is another quote by Gen. Rao on the issue:

In his book, How Pakistan got divided , Maj. Gen. Rao Farman does express the fear that "orders countermanding the earlier orders were perhaps not issued and some people were arrested. I do not till this day know where they were kept. Perhaps they were confined in an area which was guarded by mujahids. The corps or the Dacca garrison commander lost control over them after surrender and they ran away out of fear of the Mukti Bahini who were mercilessly killing mujahids. The detained persons might have been killed by Muktis or even by the Indian army to give the Pakistan army a bad name. Dacca had already been taken over by the Indians."

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, if that's the way you want it to be....so be it.

You know and I know that there is not going to be a genocide trial.

So lets stick to the happy version, since it makes us happy.

Its not about sticking to the 'happy' version, its about sticking to the one that can be verified through evidence, logic and various accounts.

I find the declassified State Dept. documents and the Bangladeshi Ambassador and journalists response to those documents to be the strongest rebuttal of the version of events pushed by India.

 

[Flintlock]

Its not about sticking to the 'happy' version, its about sticking to the one that can be verified through evidence, logic and various accounts.

Its about sticking to the happy version. Lets not have any pretensions about that.

I find the declassified State Dept. documents and the Bangladeshi Ambassador and journalists response to those documents to be the strongest rebuttal of the version of events pushed by India.

I find no reason to trust the US documents, since they turned a blind eye to the atrocities during that period.

The strongest evidence is the word of Bangladeshis themselves. Obviously, the figure is not 3 million, but then its not twenty either.

_____________________________________________________________

The Sunday Times, London, June 13, 1971, ""The Government's policy for East Bengal was spelled out to me in the Eastern Command headquarters at Dacca. It has three elements:
1. The Bengalis have proved themselves unreliable and must be ruled by West Pakistanis; 2. The Bengalis will have to be re-educated along proper Islamic lines. The - Islamization of the masses - this is the official jargon - is intended to eliminate secessionist tendencies and provide a strong religious bond with West Pakistan;
3. When the Hindus have been eliminated by death and fight, their property will be used as a golden carrot to win over the under privileged Muslim middle-class. This will provide the base for erecting administrative and political structures in the future."

NYT, Dec 19th, 1971
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50C13F83C5E127A93CBA81789D95F458785F9

 

[Flintlock]

Here's a summary of the various estimates:

The high estimates of how many Bengalis were massacred are almost 10 times the low estimates:

* WHPSI: 307,013 deaths by pol.viol. in Pakistan, 1971.
* D.Smith says 500,000
* S&S: 500,000 (Civil War, Mar.-Dec. 1971)
* 1984 World Almanac: up to 1,000,000 civilians were killed.
* Hartman: 1,000,000 Bengalis
* B&J: 1,000,000 Bengalis
* Kuper cites a study by Chaudhuri which counted 1,247,000 dead, and mentions the possibility that it may be as many as 3,000,000.
* MEDIAN: 1,000,000-1,250,000
* Porter: 1M-2M
* Rummel: 1,500,000.
* Eckhardt: 1,000,000 civ. + 500,000 mil. = 1,500,000 (Bangladesh)
* Harff & Gurr: 1,250,000 to 3,000,000
* The official estimate in Bangladesh is 3 million dead. [AP 30 Dec. 2000; Agence France Presse 3 Oct. 2000;
* Rounaq Johan: 3,000,000 (in Century of Genocide: Eyewitness Accounts and Critical Views, Samuel Totten, ed., (1997))
* Compton's Encyclopedia, "Genocide": 3,000,000
* Encyclopedia Americana (2003), "Bangladesh": 3,000,000

Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its about sticking to the happy version. Lets not have any pretensions about that.



I find no reason to trust the US documents, since they turned a blind eye to the atrocities during that period.

The strongest evidence is the word of Bangladeshis themselves. Obviously, the figure is not 3 million, but then its not twenty either.

_____________________________________________________________

I find the accusation of the US not doing anything, and therefore not being 'trusted' not credible - there were varying accounts being reported, some grossly exaggerated, and this all happened in a relatively short timeline of months.

The US even owned up to its responsibility in causing a genocide in Guatemala, with Clinton apologizing for it - I doubt they would hide Pakistan's role in these declassified documents.

I find no reason to trust the accounts by Indians and others during that time since there were vested interests at play. The strongest argument is not that of the Bengalis, but that presented by official body counts, natural deaths, etc. (i.e. solid verifiable evidence) not rumor and innuendo.

The 'happy' version argument plays both ways, your arguments fit your side, in helping denigrate and demonize Pakistan by distorting history. That is why in this thread we argued why the higher end claims were statistically impossible. You can revisit those arguments and answer them.

Genocide is not something to be thrown around lightly - without evidence to support your claims there is nothing. I think we have provided enough accounts and evidence that contradict the Indian version.

 

[Flintlock]

I wonder why you keep referring to the higher estimates as the Indian version.

Its the Bangladeshis who brought up the figure, not India.

In any case, refer to the various estimates in my previous post.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I wonder why you keep referring to the higher estimates as the Indian version.

Its the Bangladeshis who brought up the figure, not India.

In any case, refer to the various estimates in my previous post.

The estimates are just that, 'estimates' not really based on empirical evidence.

Estimates that are validated by taking into account the natural death rate, refugees who never returned, and actual body or grave counts are the ones that actually meet the test of being substantiated by empirical evidence, and those counts are far lower.

 

[Vinod2070]

I agree, referring to the atrocities as an Indian claim and thereby thinking that they stand disreputed is not a great way to logically present a claim.

The target of the atrocities were Bangladeshis. They are the ones who came up with the figure (their father of nation did).

 

[Vinod2070]

Atrocities were committed all round in that conflict. You should have seen how the Mukti Bahini and Mujib Bahini behaved. What is not documented is the Bengali on Bengali violence that occurred. Some of the killings of leftists were carried out on the orders of RAW. It is not clear how many deaths were caused by Indian policy of elimination and assassination.

Whose side you are on? I can see now why your compatriots are calling you neo-Razakar on the internet.

You are justifying the murders and atrocities on your own people and making excuses for the people who did that! Just to get acceptance here and to feed the hatreds that you have for India.

Pathetic! Pathetic!