Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[deckingraj]

Actually the author is getting mixed up with his Apples and Oranges since the first batch of Mirge-3s equipped No.5 Squadron and remains so to this day, as noted in the following article, a follow up batch of 30 Mirage-5 was already on order to replace the older F-86s and went on to also re-equip No.9 (F-104) Squadron. It's worth noting that in September 1970, the US Government did offer seven F-104s but GOP declined as it was planing to phase out the Starfighter.

Conmon windJammer...Are we getting nit picky here just to take a shot at credibility of the author??? It is common understanding that when you retire any fighter you replace it with some other better fighter for the same role...All author has said is tht F-104 were replaced with Mirage...He never claimed that New orders of Mirage were ordered specialy to replace F-104....Now let me ask you few questions based on your claims

- We all know F-104 did great in 1965
- Then comes the US arms Embargo and obviously it would ahve made life difficult for PAF, still they continued with F-104
- As you yourself said Mirages were ordered only to replace Sabres in 1967
- Then may i ask what brough the sudden end of F-104 in PAF, a fighter which was inducted only in 1961??? Even though US offered you more F-104 right after the war???

Growler was giving me numbers sayign only 6 were there which would have njot amde any difference however my counter was you ahve only 8 by 1967 and still you continued with this fighter..but what brought in a sudden end after 1971???

Comon man why you guys don't agree that indeed Mig-21 outclassed F-104...This has been accepted by the makers of F-104(have backed it up with proofs) but not sure why you guys are reluctant??

*******************************************************************
See the beauty of these debates...How much difference of opinion is floating around...even people in same camp have different thoughts...let me highlight a few difference between you and Growler

- Did Jordan provide F-104 to Pak in 1971 war...
Growler suggests that they did...You seems to be on opposite side

- Did Pak retired F-104 because of Arms Embargo
Growler suggest it was Arms Embargo and you suggest that US did offer F-104 after 71 war

As far as i am concerned here is my stand(which i have backed with links)
Jordan did provide you 10 F-104 in 71 war and Mig-21 end the career of F-104 in PAF....

 

[deckingraj]

Link is as under :-

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

Thanks for your inputs...However please try and put some neutral links..I know it is going to be a little difficult(i have been guilty of it as well) but since both Air Forces provided different counts it is going to be hard to convene...I hope you get the message

 

[Windjammer]

"Interestingly the PAF was augmented during the war by No.9 squadron of the
Royal Jordanian Air force, flying F -104s and the delivery of between 25 and 70 F -86s
from Saudi Arabia. It is also believed that Libya sent a training detachment of F -5s,
perhaps to allow for rapid transfer of more of these aircraft had the war gone on for a
longer period.
Exact kill and loss figures remain controversial to this day, but it is clear that India
effectively won the air war in 1971, and that the Pakistan Air Force emerged with a
dented reputation and was blamed by the man on the street for 'letting down the nat ion'
World Air Power Journal, Air Power Analysis : Pakistan

The Mirage -IIIEP served with No.5 squadron at Saragodha during the 1971 war,
operating primarily in the air Defense role. Some 28 Mirages were supplied by France,
and 23 were shown after t he war, though six extra aircraft were said to have been
supplied by a Middle Eastern ally.
The PAF played a more limited role in the operations, and was reinforced by F -104s
from Jordan, Mirages from an unidentified Middle Eastern Ally (probably Libya) a nd by
F-86s from Saudi Arabia. Their arrival helped camouflage the extent of Pakistan's losses.
Libyan F -5s were reportedly deployed to Saragodha, perhaps as a potential training unit
to prepare Pakistani pilots for an influx of more F -5s from Saudi Arabia .
Chris Bishop, Indo-Pakistan wars 1965-71, p.386, "The Encyclopedia of 20th Century

Air Warfare", 2001 Aerospace publishing ltd, 2001 edition

dont say all the above quotes are from Indian sources.....

I have repeatedly tried to access the above sources without much joy but i would request Aresh and Growler to look up and see if the link is authentic, however while searching for above, i came across this interesting piece which again goes to prove that all is not what meets the eye.
December 3 saw the formal declaration of war following preemptive strikes by the Pakistan Air Force against Indian Air Force installations in the west. The PAF targets were Indian bases in Srinagar, Ambala, Sirsa, Halwara and Jodhpur on the lines of Israeli Operation Focus. At the time it was reported that the InAF had anticipated the attack and it failed as no major losses were suffered.[22] However, statements made since then by then InAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal P. C. Lal, seem to contradict this to some extent.
And this is what i found in the second link with reference to the Indian Defence Minister.
[
The final tally of the 14-day 1971 war announced by Indian Defence Minister Jagjivan Ram, in the
Parliament on Dec 18, 1971, puts Pakistani losses at 94 aircraft and Indian losses at 45 (54 [28] ) aircraft.
The figure for kills was determined though very strict procedures and does not include damaged aircraft or
probable kills. It has not been clear whether these claims refer to PAF losses alone or to all aircraft
destroyed in combat or if they include the F-86Es captured at Tejgaon, which would make the numbers
much higher. A breakdown of kills was never released officially, although a crude estimate of 75 kills
mentioned the Official history of the 1971 war, would include 35 Pakistani aircraft lost to the air action and
the rest destroyed on the ground. This document attempts to list to the highest extent possible, all of the
claims made by the IAF, in terms of enemy aircraft destroyed during the conflict. Since the IAF itself has
not released a single, detailed list of such claims, all the respective tables (especially Table 1.1) are thus
incomplete until more information becomes available.

 

[KS]

Guys.....

Its true PAF had the upper hand in the air-to-air battles with the IAF
while it is also true that IA and IN had the upper habd over the Pakistani counterparts.
And bottom line both the sides are not gonna accept wat the other side claims.

 

[honour]

I have repeatedly tried to access the above sources without much joy but i would request Aresh and Growler to look up and see if the link is authentic, however while searching for above, i came across this interesting piece which again goes to prove that all is not what meets the eye.
December 3 saw the formal declaration of war following preemptive strikes by the Pakistan Air Force against Indian Air Force installations in the west. The PAF targets were Indian bases in Srinagar, Ambala, Sirsa, Halwara and Jodhpur on the lines of Israeli Operation Focus. At the time it was reported that the InAF had anticipated the attack and it failed as no major losses were suffered.[22] However, statements made since then by then InAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal P. C. Lal, seem to contradict this to some extent.
And this is what i found in the second link with reference to the Indian Defence Minister.
[
The final tally of the 14-day 1971 war announced by Indian Defence Minister Jagjivan Ram, in the
Parliament on Dec 18, 1971, puts Pakistani losses at 94 aircraft and Indian losses at 45 (54 [28] ) aircraft.
The figure for kills was determined though very strict procedures and does not include damaged aircraft or
probable kills. It has not been clear whether these claims refer to PAF losses alone or to all aircraft
destroyed in combat or if they include the F-86Es captured at Tejgaon, which would make the numbers
much higher. A breakdown of kills was never released officially, although a crude estimate of 75 kills
mentioned the Official history of the 1971 war, would include 35 Pakistani aircraft lost to the air action and
the rest destroyed on the ground. This document attempts to list to the highest extent possible, all of the
claims made by the IAF, in terms of enemy aircraft destroyed during the conflict. Since the IAF itself has
not released a single, detailed list of such claims, all the respective tables (especially Table 1.1) are thus
incomplete until more information becomes available.

well the red parts are not links but its just to highlighten the source.....well the content you posted i s from orbat .com which you claimed is bs.....so what now....also i dont see a single claim in the content refuting the claim of the starfighter/f-86/mirage sourced from libiya/saudi/jordan

 

[honour]

Actually the author is getting mixed up with his Apples and Oranges since the first batch of Mirge-3s equipped No.5 Squadron and remains so to this day, as noted in the following article, a follow up batch of 30 Mirage-5 was already on order to replace the older F-86s and went on to also re-equip No.9 (F-104) Squadron. It's worth noting that in September 1970, the US Government did offer seven F-104s but GOP declined as it was planing to phase out the Starfighter.
You will find the above information in these pages.

You love this post even when i posted much about the credibility of the source in my earlier posts.......

also this content has been posted earlier also in the thread...

again the same question"can i have a neutral link"

 

[deckingraj]

I have repeatedly tried to access the above sources without much joy but i would request Aresh and Growler to look up and see if the link is authentic, however while searching for above, i came across this interesting piece which again goes to prove that all is not what meets the eye.
December 3 saw the formal declaration of war following preemptive strikes by the Pakistan Air Force against Indian Air Force installations in the west. The PAF targets were Indian bases in Srinagar, Ambala, Sirsa, Halwara and Jodhpur on the lines of Israeli Operation Focus. At the time it was reported that the InAF had anticipated the attack and it failed as no major losses were suffered.[22] However, statements made since then by then InAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal P. C. Lal, seem to contradict this to some extent.
And this is what i found in the second link with reference to the Indian Defence Minister.
[
The final tally of the 14-day 1971 war announced by Indian Defence Minister Jagjivan Ram, in the
Parliament on Dec 18, 1971, puts Pakistani losses at 94 aircraft and Indian losses at 45 (54 [28] ) aircraft.
The figure for kills was determined though very strict procedures and does not include damaged aircraft or
probable kills. It has not been clear whether these claims refer to PAF losses alone or to all aircraft
destroyed in combat or if they include the F-86Es captured at Tejgaon, which would make the numbers
much higher. A breakdown of kills was never released officially, although a crude estimate of 75 kills
mentioned the Official history of the 1971 war, would include 35 Pakistani aircraft lost to the air action and
the rest destroyed on the ground. This document attempts to list to the highest extent possible, all of the
claims made by the IAF, in terms of enemy aircraft destroyed during the conflict. Since the IAF itself has
not released a single, detailed list of such claims, all the respective tables (especially Table 1.1) are thus
incomplete until more information becomes available.

I am sorry but what are you pointing out??? The same article also points out

This document attempts to list to the highest extent possible, all of the claims made by the IAF, in terms of enemy aircraft destroyed during the conflict.

In other words there is a possibility of Author missing few kills but he has tried his best to put all IAF claims in a list...

The figure for kills was determined though very strict procedures and does not include damaged aircraft orprobable kills.

In other words extra care has been taken to validate claims and wherever there was doubt that kill was not awarded...

The author further elaborate that he is not sure that crude number reported in Indian parliament includes all aircraft destroyed in combat..He says

It has not been clear whether these claims refer to PAF losses alone or to all aircraft destroyed in combat or if they include the F-86Es captured at Tejgaon, which would make the numbers much higher

In other words if he adds numbers of other aircrafts destroyed in combat and adds the one that were captured number would have been very high...So all in all he is saying that he is not sure what was the composition of numbers reported in Indian parliament...He has gone ahead and done his research...Him mentioning all this only indicates the transparency of his findings and reporting the truth rather than doing a fan boy king of research....

Here is the link...
http://www.orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills_rev1.pdf

 

[deckingraj]

Guys.....

Its true PAF had the upper hand in the air-to-air battles with the IAF
while it is also true that IA and IN had the upper habd over the Pakistani counterparts.
And bottom line both the sides are not gonna accept wat the other side claims.

Karthic then please help us out here...Will history change?? No..so why don't you share your thoughts...I love to change my stance because i am not a fanboy...Just wanted to find out the truth...

I have posted few posts with relevant links and have asked few questions...Why don't you answer them and help me out with my dillusion??

 

[Windjammer]

Conmon windJammer...Are we getting nit picky here just to take a shot at credibility of the author??? It is common understanding that when you retire any fighter you replace it with some other better fighter for the same role...All author has said is tht F-104 were replaced with Mirage...He never claimed that New orders of Mirage were ordered specialy to replace F-104....Now let me ask you few questions based on your claims

- We all know F-104 did great in 1965
- Then comes the US arms Embargo and obviously it would ahve made life difficult for PAF, still they continued with F-104
- As you yourself said Mirages were ordered only to replace Sabres in 1967
- Then may i ask what brough the sudden end of F-104 in PAF, a fighter which was inducted only in 1961??? Even though US offered you more F-104 right after the war???

Please read again, they were offered in Sept. 1970, three months before the war, and Pakistan refused as it was anticipating second batch of Mirages to replace the earlier F-86 and the Starfighter.

Growler was giving me numbers sayign only 6 were there which would have njot amde any difference however my counter was you ahve only 8 by 1967 and still you continued with this fighter..but what brought in a sudden end after 1971???

My information is there were seven, none the less, until the induction of the Mirage-3, PAF had to hold on to it for fast deep strike capability which otherwise was redundant to the PAF.

Comon man why you guys don't agree that indeed Mig-21 outclassed F-104...This has been accepted by the makers of F-104(have backed it up with proofs) but not sure why you guys are reluctant??

Buddy, no one is in denial that the MIG-21 indeed out fought the F-104, but the claim of some 9 F-104s falling prey to the Soviet fighter are absurd, however two were indeed shot down by the MIGs.

See the beauty of these debates...How much difference of opinion is floating around...even people in same camp have different thoughts...let me highlight a few difference between you and Growler

- Did Jordan provide F-104 to Pak in 1971 war...
Growler suggests that they did...You seems to be on opposite side

Kindly read my posts again, some Jordanian aircraft were indeed shipped to Pakistan but they never participated in any action, the general theory is that they arrived at the end of hostilities.

- Did Pak retired F-104 because of Arms Embargo
Growler suggest it was Arms Embargo and you suggest that US did offer F-104 after 71 war

You see before and after is the fine line, scroll back and observe what i said and in any case it's mentioned in the last page of the article Growler posted. You have misread me.

As far as i am concerned here is my stand(which i have backed with links)
Jordan did provide you 10 F-104 in 71 war and Mig-21 end the career of F-104 in PAF....

Jordan did send it's aircraft over which didn't participate in the hostilities, the F-104, even at it's peak wasn't in full squadron's strength and operated as a single flight and by destroying six Indian aircraft for the loss of three, still aquited it'self.
It's not always the dismal performance in a war that renders an aircraft as obsolete, several other aspects come into play, for example, IAF lost more Hunters than SU-7s in the war, yet it held on to the older Hunter while disposing the SU-7 much earlier than anticipated. If you can't find the reason, by all means come back.

 

[indiarocks]

Guys.....

Its true PAF had the upper hand in the air-to-air battles with the IAF
while it is also true that IA and IN had the upper habd over the Pakistani counterparts.
And bottom line both the sides are not gonna accept wat the other side claims.

Expected a genuine and facts based answer from you...not an generalised answer based on these non neutral posts

 

[indiarocks]

Please read again, they were offered in Sept. 1970, three months before the war, and Pakistan refused as it was anticipating second batch of Mirages to replace the earlier F-86 and the Starfighter.

My information is there were seven, none the less, until the induction of the Mirage-3, PAF had to hold on to it for fast deep strike capability which otherwise was redundant to the PAF.
Buddy, no one is in denial that the MIG-21 indeed out fought the F-104, but the claim of some 9 F-104s falling prey to the Soviet fighter are absurd, however two were indeed shot down by the MIGs. Kindly read my posts again, some Jordanian aircraft were indeed shipped to Pakistan but they never participated in any action, the general theory is that they arrived at the end of hostilities.

You see before and after is the fine line, scroll back and observe what i said and in any case it's mentioned in the last page of the article Growler posted. You have misread me.
As far as i am concerned here is my stand(which i have backed with links)
Jordan did provide you 10 F-104 in 71 war and Mig-21 end the career of F-104 in PAF....

Jordan did send it's aircraft over which didn't participate in the hostilities, the F-104, even at it's peak wasn't in full squadron's strength and operated as a single flight and by destroying six Indian aircraft for the loss of three, still aquited it'self.
It's not always the dismal performance in a war that renders an aircraft as obsolete, several other aspects come into play, for example, IAF lost more Hunters than SU-7s in the war, yet it held on to the older Hunter while disposing the SU-7 much earlier than anticipated. If you can't find the reason, by all means come back.[/QUOTE]

OK let Jordan gave you the star fighters which reached after the hostiles but tell me about a link that shows you returned them all/Jordan paraded them all before media....

the truth is that u used them as camouflage ..............just to hide the losses during the war

 

[Windjammer]

I am sorry but what are you pointing out??? The same article also points out

In other words there is a possibility of Author missing few kills but he has tried his best to put all IAF claims in a list...

In other words extra care has been taken to validate claims and wherever there was doubt that kill was not awarded...

The author further elaborate that he is not sure that crude number reported in Indian parliament includes all aircraft destroyed in combat..He says

In other words if he adds numbers of other aircrafts destroyed in combat and adds the one that were captured number would have been very high...So all in all he is saying that he is not sure what was the composition of numbers reported in Indian parliament...He has gone ahead and done his research...Him mentioning all this only indicates the transparency of his findings and reporting the truth rather than doing a fan boy king of research....

Here is the link...
http://www.orbat.com/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills_rev1.pdf

Come on about now, let's not mince the words, the article starts with,

The final tally of the 14-day 1971 war announced by Indian Defence Minister Jagjivan Ram, in the
Parliament on Dec 18, 1971, puts Pakistani losses at 94 aircraft and Indian losses at 45 (54 [28] ) aircraft.

Now how would you claim that to be a neutral source, since it's according to the Indian Defence Minister.

 

[Windjammer]

OK let Jordan gave you the star fighters which reached after the hostiles but tell me about a link that shows you returned them all/Jordan paraded them all before media....

the truth is that u used them as camouflage ..............just to hide the losses during the war

Firstly this was your so called advice to the other member,

Expected a genuine and facts based answer from you...not an generalised answer based on these non neutral posts

Likewise.

Any ways, we at least admit to Jordan sending it's aircraft over, however on your part, you haven't managed to show any evidence to the effect of shooting down any of the kind or even proving that if any more than two were gunned down, more over India to this day is in denial of being helped by Soviet manned MOSS, AEW Aaircrafts during the war.

 

[Hulk]

@deckingraj and honour, I appreciate the work you guys put in, mind blowing I must say.
@deckingraj in this debate people should learn from you how to stick to topic, debate with providing links awesome job.

Also I feel when Pakistan took help from so many other countries to fight India, Jorden, SA how can they claim to be superior? How many countries did India got help from?

 

[honour]

@deckingraj and honour, I appreciate the work you guys put in, mind blowing I must say.
@deckingraj in this debate people should learn from you how to stick to topic, debate with providing links awesome job.

Also I feel when Pakistan took help from so many other countries to fight India, Jorden, SA how can they claim to be superior? How many countries did India got help from?

sir pleased to here that...well will be very happy if u join with us


Moreover they even claim to win the kargil war...they even claim Kashmir is theirs...even windj claims there is "insurgency" in Tamilnadu
what can we do about that???????????

well now @ windj....you didn't answered his <indiarocks>question....did Jordan released the pictures of their f-104 aircraft's when returned.....ony opertational picture after 1971 war.........