Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[holysaturn]

Yeah good one. Just stick to this question. Because we are here to troll and derail the thread.

u dont hav an answer right

 

[Areesh]

u dont hav an answer right

We have answer to all questions dear. But we want answer to our questions too.

 

[Windjammer]

Air operations
Main article: East Pakistan Air Operations, 1971
After the initial preemptive strike, PAF adopted a defensive stance in response to the Indian retaliation. As the war progressed, the Indian Air Force continued to battle the PAF over conflict zones, but the number of sorties flown by the PAF gradually decreased day-by-day.The Indian Air Force flew 4,000 sorties while its counterpart, the PAF offered little in retaliation, partly because of the paucity of non-Bengali technical personnel. This lack of retaliation has also been attributed to the deliberate decision of the PAF High Command to cut its losses as it had already incurred huge losses in the conflict.The PAF also did not intervene during the Indian Navy's raid on Pakistani naval port city of Karachi.
In the east, the small air contingent of Pakistan Air Force No. 14 Sqn was destroyed, putting the Dhaka airfield out of commission and resulting in Indian air superiority in the east.

gun camera shows two sabres meet their end over boyra.

captured pakistani pilots.The Two Pakistani Pilots Parvez Mehdi Qureshi and Khaleel Ahmed who were captured after baling out.

Just when one thought we have done away with the solitary image of an F-86 being shot down god knows when you bring it up again, Pervez Mehdi Qureshi was a pilot shot down in action and became POW and later rose to become COAS PAF, but do you even know how did Brij Pall Sikand achieved notoriety, he was the pilot who surrendered his Gnat when confronted by an F-104, initially while a prisoner in Pakistan, he was dismissed from the IAF, but ostensibly later became the Airchief of the IAF. The IAF claims to have completed some 4000 sorties compared to just under 3000 for the PAF. Now comparing the size ratio of 5:1, i don't need to remind you how this fairs with your airforce. The IAF it'self admits that most of the air engagements took place over India, which leaves little room to doubt as to which air arm was on the offensive. It is further said that at least three PAF Squadrons were not even utilized, conserving them for battles ahead.

 

[Windjammer]

Are we getting selective here?? Let me ask you straight do you believe Jordan gave you F-104's in 1971 war or not??

What happened 40 odd years earlier is not going to change or matter with our acceptance or denials, all i can say with conviction is that in my several visits to DPR (Air), albeit i have witnessed images of F-5s in PAF Insignia, but nothing to the effect that any Jordanian F-104s actually participated in any combat mission. The foreign Starfighters have never been depicted or portrayed in any manner. Albeit in one of these so called credible sources, i did read the PAF loosing 32 MIG-21s and the IAF supposedly operating Hunter Hawks.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Look at the the places where the kills happened..

1. Sakesar
2. Chakwal
3. Resalewala
4. Tejgaon (Dacca)

Lets make it clear. PAF shot down more IAF aircraft over Indian territory then IAF over pakistan.

If PAF has the superiority over IAF, the kills must have been in Indian territory. And is also validate the following statement.

"While the enemy was free to fly over our territory , Air Marshal M. Rahim Khan kept himself and his air force hidden during the conflict. ", p.174, Lt.Gen. A.A.K Niazi, The Betrayal of East Pakistan, Oxford University press, ISBN 0185777271

And you are referring to PAK east wing which became Bangladesh.
Then according to you PAF was whipped out.

Ironically IAF lost more fighters over the east wing and it was PAF which dismantlement most of the sabres and only few could be put back to flying condition by IAF. Heck the IAF claimed these detrimental aircrafts as their own "kills".

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Source: Aeroplane Magazine; Map: Maggie Nelson

 

[hillman32]

Role of Pakistani AA Units in Dacca

Limited inductions of improved short range air defence weapons resulted in a commendable anti air craft performance in the 1971 war. Anti Aircraft was then accredited with 51 aircraft, 23 alone were shot down at Dacca Air Field by 6 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment, now 6 Light Air Defence Regiment.

At the outbreak of hostilities the Anti Aircraft Arty was organized as one Army Air Defence Brigade (i.e. 3 Army Air Defence Brigade) having 12x Light Anti Aircraft Regiments, 2x (SP) Light Anti Aircraft Regiments, 3x Heavy Anti Aircraft Regiments, and 2x Independent Light Anti Aircraft Batteries. Out of these, 1x Light Anti Aircraft Regiment was deployed in East Pakistan. The worth mentioning performance was of 6 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment deployed in East Pakistan (Dacca) under the Command of Brigadier (the then Lieutenant Colonel) Muhammad Afzal, SJ (Late). The unit destroyed 23x air crafts and was awarded 4x SJs.

“Miss Holingworth” a BBC War Correspondent described the performance of 6 Light Anti Aircraft Regiment as “It has been my great desire to see aircraft shot down by Anti Aircraft guns. Today when I am watching the duels between Indian pilots and Pakistani gunners, I can see the air crafts falling like toys.

 

[deckingraj]

First of all the link you are providing isn't very neutral. Many of it's findings are based on Indian sources. Second the link that Windjammer provided says clearly says that it is not certain whether the Aircrafts were used in war or not. In fact one also don't know that who were their Pakistani or Jordanians. So all these confusions clearly refute or seriously question your version that Pakistan used F 104 from jordan in the war.

Ohhh really??? OK lets look at the link that windjammer provided and its sources

Here is what he provided - F-104A/B in Combat

Sources

1. The Lockheed F-104G/CF-104, Gerhard Joos, Aircraft in Profile No. 131, Doubleday, 1969.

2. The World's Great Interceptor Aircraft, Gallery Books, 1989.

3. Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, Steve Pace, Motorbooks International, 1992.

4. Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1987.

5. The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion, 1987.

6. The World's Fighting Planes, William Green, Doubleday 1968.

7. American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.

8. Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, John Fricker, Wings of Fame, Vol 2, Aerospace Publishing Ltd, 1996.

9. Mikoyan MiG-21, Bill Gunston, Osprey, 1986.

Here is what i provided [3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)

Sources

# LOCKHEED F-104 STARFIGHTER by Steve Pace, Motorbooks International, 1992.

# "Lockheed F-104 Starfighter" by John Fricker & Paul Jackson, WINGS OF FAME, Volume 2 / 1996, 38:99.

# "Starfighter In Vietnam" by Warren Thompson, INTERNATIONAL AIR POWER REVIEW, Volume 12 / Spring 2004, 152:161.

# "The Last Starfighters -- Lockheed F-104s Of The Aeronautica Militaire Italiana" by Luigino Caliaro, INTERNATIONAL AIR POWER REVIEW, Volume 6 / Fall 2004, 172:181

Now may i ask what source you find to be Indian here??? In fact most of the sources in both the links are same...The only difference is my link is more recent than link by windjammer...Comon open your eyes before making foolish statements and calling others immature....

And when Pakistan admitted "significant" losses of F-104 in the war. Your source credibiltiy is seriously weak. According to PAF and GOP Pakistan lost only 3 F-104's during the war. One to ground fire and one due to accident. This isn't a significant loss.

Wow...what a justification...when you do not accept anything written by Indian you want me to accept what Pakistan says??? Isn't this immature??? I have shared with you a neutral source claiming there were significantlosses...provide me a neutral source which says the opposite...i know you can't...

Let me for your benefit tell you something more clearly...

Mig-21 was soviet answer to F-104....F-104 was designed for Hit and Run combat as it was not maneuverable like Mig-21...This is what Indian's exploited...Care to explain the fighter that did well in 65(as claimed by Pak) was suddenly replaced by Mirage 5 right after the war where as per Pak it did well??? Does that make sense??? A fighter suddenly was not worth right with in 6 years time frame....Think about it...

As said before as far as this source is concerned it is dedicated to F-104 and its sales across the world as well its performance with different Air Forces...Lockhead would know each and every F-104 being made and what was sold to whom...Along with what was transferred from what country to what.....

P.S : I think i have said enough on this topic....If you don't agree then debunk me with sources...

When did we started posting about 71 or when did we get to any conclusion about 65? 65 comes before 71. Isn't it. In fact it was you who appealed to shift to 71 and not to talk about 65. The sane thing is to first get to conclusion about 65 and then move to next war. Check yourself. Whether you jumped or not?

Till now you and other Indian members have been off topic and immature.

Look at post# 19, 21 where i am asking for sources from members posting their findings...then look at post#30 where growler gave me western source about 71 war...I took it and started my fact findings...Now tell me when i say lets stick to one topic in hand how wrong was I??? After 7 pages what have we concluded...Nothing.....

Its just fan boys who don't want to find the truth but want to push others and debunk them....


Now Look at post#41..On my request of source windJammer again gave me 71 war source...and then look at post#45 i requested you to stick to 71 since i already had two bulky posts to reply and wanted to keep the discussion in check so that we all can learn and conclude...Fair???


Now look at this thread....Pictures, Newspaper cuttings etc are being shared without any particular direction....So i try to give some direction in post # 45(Indian Source) and then post # 52(neutral source)....Not only that instead of just copy pasting exercise i posted only relevant columns and asked some very valid questions....How about ou replying to them???? I know you won't because the obvious will come out...If you don't think so why don't you answer them???

Just for your comfort i am re-posting my neutral link where this canadian gentelman clearly says who was ruling the sky....look at my post 52 and if you can answer my questions...

The India-Pakistan War Of 1971: A Modern War

 

[deckingraj]

What happened 40 odd years earlier is not going to change or matter with our acceptance or denials, all i can say with conviction is that in my several visits to DPR (Air), albeit i have witnessed images of F-5s in PAF Insignia, but nothing to the effect that any Jordanian F-104s actually participated in any combat mission. The foreign Starfighters have never been depicted or portrayed in any manner. Albeit in one of these so called credible sources, i did read the PAF loosing 32 MIG-21s and the IAF supposedly operating Hunter Hawks.

These are the the two neutral source i ahve provided so far...Can you please point what so called credible source is claiming that???

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)
The India-Pakistan War Of 1971: A Modern War

 

[Windjammer]

If I have not given you pictures that does not mean facts will change...b/w let me know what specific pictures are you looking for and i will see if i can provide you same??? Since I did not know what specific pic you were asking from me so posted a few...

Suffice to repeat my self, if the IAF had indeed engaged with the Jordanian F-104s and more over if it claims to have downed any PAF Mirages, it would be more inclined to publicize these kills rather than the same irritating images of the F-86 being repeated for ever.
On the contrary, here is how PAF gives credibility to it's claims.

 

[Windjammer]

These are the the two neutral source i ahve provided so far...Can you please point what so called credible source is claiming that???

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)
The India-Pakistan War Of 1971: A Modern War

You are missing the point here, i have read to the effect in what i said in my posts. Since you are adamant to resort to the so called neutral sources, let me ask you, who was actually based on ground level, ??
Yes it was India and Pakistan hence these historians usually disclose what they would learn from the respective countries. I doubt they travel around to different bases counting air frames and wrecks.

 

[deckingraj]

Suffice to repeat my self, if the IAF had indeed engaged with the Jordanian F-104s and more over if it claims to have downed any PAF Mirages, it would be more inclined to publicize these kills rather than the same irritating images of the F-86 being repeated for ever.
On the contrary, here is how PAF gives credibility to it's claims.

Hang on here...Bcoz i have not been able to give you pictures doesn't mean that claims can be debunked....Since PAF claims they ruled the sky how many pictures can you provide me for each claimed kill??? If you wanna kill by kill i am all for it...However it is hard to get pictures(especially when i have 0 military background) and is waste of time.....Still i will carry on my research and will get back...Fair???

 

[Myth_buster_1]

These are the the two neutral source i ahve provided so far...Can you please point what so called credible source is claiming that???

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)
The India-Pakistan War Of 1971: A Modern War

I have already answered. Try reading posts.

As you yourself said that it is not certain so Indian claims cannot be simply debuked because there is a possibility that they were used and their performance against Mig-21 was not good as well...

By the way there is another link that say's the opposite

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)

Nothing but Indian propaganda. According to SIPRI arms transfer data base PAF loaned 10 Jordanian F-104s and returned all of the 10 in 1972. Their is no evidence that Jordanian F-104s were shot down in 71 war other then Indian claims.

PAF acquired 12 F-104 in 1962 and 2 more were acquired in mid 60s.
Here is a list of 6 PAF F-104s that survived both wars.







And here is the list of F-104s that were lost due to accidents and action.

56-802
Lost on 09-11-1963 when the aircraft went into spin. F/O Asghar Shah ejected

56-803
Lost on 03-09-1964 during a low pull-out. F/L Tariq Majeed died in the accident

56-804
Lost on 05-12-1971 due to AAA. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected

56-805
Lost on 10-07-1968 due to fire while on ground. Pilot S/L Asif Iqbal survived

56-807
Lost on 15-04-1968 due to an inflight fire. F/L G U Abasi died in the accident

56-868
Lost on 17-09-1965 due to pilot getting disoriented. F/L G U Abbasi survived the accident

56-877
Lost on 07-09-1965 after a mid-air collision with IAF Mystere. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected

56-773
Lost in air combat on 12-12-1971. Pilot W/C M L Middlecoat died after the ejection

LINK


Its always easy to debunk Indian claims. IAF has claimed accidents as their own kills which is quite cheap.

 

[deckingraj]

I have already answered. Try reading posts.

Man..i am but seems you are that paying that much attention...

We are still debating(WindJammer and Areesh) that Jordian F-104 were given to PAF or not....lol....We still haven't reached that conclusion....So help me out here

As far as kills are concerned even the neutral link that i provided claims there were significant losses..they do not give any number..However i have yet to do my research on those kills...I am trying to hope you can appreciate that...

B/w there was something very interesting that this link claimed...Hope you can answer(i asked same to Areesh)....

Mig-21 was soviet answer to F-104....F-104 was designed for Hit and Run combat as it was not maneuverable like Mig-21...This is what Indian's exploited...Care to explain the fighter that did well in 65(as claimed by Pak) was suddenly replaced by Mirage 5 right after the war where as per Pak it did well??? Does that make sense??? A fighter suddenly was not worth right with in 6 years time frame..can you explain??

Nothing but Indian propaganda. According to SIPRI arms transfer data base PAF loaned 10 Jordanian F-104s and returned all of the 10 in 1972. Their is no evidence that Jordanian F-104s were shot down in 71 war other then Indian claims.

Let me do more research and get back to you...As far as my research goes i never claimed that Jordian F-104's were shot down...All i am claiming is that

- PAF did receive fighters from different countries including Jordian
- PAF had better A2A missiles then IAF
- PAF had better communication system as compared to IAF
- IAF had to keep reserves in case dragon join the party and thus the so called disparity between IAF and PAF was not as huge as claimed to be...
- Last but not least F-104 did not do well against MIg-21 and as a result they were retired right after the war...

Let me know which one's you do not agree and why...

Its always easy to debunk Indian claims. IAF has claimed accidents as their own kills which is quite cheap.

Already shared my thought...B/W what accidents are you talking about which Indian's claim's as kills...

 

[Windjammer]

Hang on here...Bcoz i have not been able to give you pictures doesn't mean that claims can be debunked....Since PAF claims they ruled the sky how many pictures can you provide me for each claimed kill??? If you wanna kill by kill i am all for it...However it is hard to get pictures(especially when i have 0 military background) and is waste of time.....Still i will carry on my research and will get back...Fair???

No dear, i am not contradicting you, it's common knowledge that such images would have surfaced at some point in some corner. It's obvious every kill is impossible to record and capture, but wouldn't you agree that such evidence doesn't evaporate into thin air either. During the Yum Kipur war despite strenuous denials by the Israelis, it was later proved that some of the F-4 Phantoms in the IAF were flown by the USAF pilots, here is another interesting read to show how sometimes the hard evidence comes into light.