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Air Support in Chamb - 1971 War

Pakistani GHQ at Rawalpindi felt that, besides the main strategic offensive in Ganganagar-Suratgarh area, an additional secondary offensive was obligatory for creating a ‘pull’ on the Indian strategic reserves, thereby improving the relative strength ratio favourably in that sector. It was surmised that control of nodes on communication lines in Kashmir could provide the quickest access to vital areas in the hinterland, while simultaneously choking the enemy by severing his supply line. The Indian formations were, thus, bound to be unhinged by the threat to its jugular and, the Pakistani main offensive could thence be unleashed.

The capture of Akhnur town, along with the vital bridge, could sever the main road communication of Indian troops deployed in the western half of Jammu Province. With the defending Indian troops thus choked off, operations could be developed towards Jammu from the western side. For Pakistan, however, it was important to properly secure the Chamb Sector, before any plans for the capture of Akhnur could be put into action. The Grand Trunk Road and the main railway line ran close enough for the Indians to steal a jaunty ride towards either Lahore or Sialkot. This vulnerability dictated that Pakistan Army improve its defensive posture before any further advance.

23 Division was, thus, tasked to first secure the line up to Tawi River and then, ‘be prepared’ to capture Akhnur. The division had five infantry brigades and one armoured brigade at its disposal, which was a formidable force by any reckoning.

The Indian 10 Division, primarily organized for an offensive task, was purportedly retasked to defend against an impending Pakistani offensive. An infantry brigade was positioned west of Tawi River while another one defended the northern reaches of Chamb. One infantry brigade stayed put at Akhnur, to ward off any attack on the bridge from the exposed southern direction of Pukhlian Salient. An armoured and an infantry brigade at Akhnur made up the assault echelons of the division.

23 Division opened up with its offensive with two infantry brigades on the night of 3-4 December. The Indian forward brigade was pushed back and, after chaotic battles, it withdrew behind Tawi River. Over the next three days fierce fighting was witnessed with Pakistani forays repeatedly countered by Indian forces. During the night of 4-5 December, a small bridgehead was formed by Pakistani infantry elements to enable the armoured brigade to break through. Heavy enemy air and artillery attacks, however, forced them back with heavy losses to armour. The maximum extent of advance was about 2,000 yards east of Tawi River, before the withdrawal.

On 7 December, the indefatigable GOC of 23 Division, Maj Gen Iftikhar Janjua, ordered the capture of Chamb and Manawar after regrouping the forces. Both objectives were easily achieved as Indian resistance west of Tawi River had practically ceased. The gravity of the situation had forced the Indian 10 Division to prepare for a last stand at Akhnur.

With the primary mission accomplished and, seeing the enemy in complete disarray, Maj Gen Janjua decided to expand the operation to the more ambitious phase. He ordered the capture of Jaurian, the springboard for a final hop to Akhnur.

Orders for the attack were issued on 7 December, but operations could not start till the night of 9-10 December for several reasons. Regrouping and positioning of certain units and, resting the fatigued troops took up vital time. A replaced brigade commander needed an extra 24 hours to size up the situation. Finally, the unfortunate loss of the GOC in a helicopter crash on the morning of 9 December robbed the division of a “very bold and competent officer” (according to an Indian assessment). When the attack did commence, the impetus had already been lost. Fierce counter-attacks by the enemy, along with heavy air attacks, limited the extent of the Chamb offensive to the west bank of Tawi River. Capture of 90 square miles of territory was Pakistan’s most substantial gain. Its inconsequentiality was, however, highlighted when India ceded most of it, as the occupied territories were being traded off in the post-war Simla Accord.

Air Support

Three squadrons of F-86E/F at Sargodha, Murid and Peshawar made up the fighter element for air support in the Chamb Sector. T-6G trainers were also found handy for strafing convoys in moonlit nights. The menacing whine of their engines seemed to provide a suitable overture to the staccato fire of the .303” machine guns. F-6s, the better-endowed fighters for tank killing, remained committed in the more critical Shakargarh Sector.

The first phase of 23 Division operations that lasted from 4-7 December was vigorously supported by the PAF. However, weapon-target compatibility left a lot to be desired as neither the F-86’s 0.5” guns, nor the general purpose bombs were effective against armour. Mercifully, the air support demands were not desperate, as the situation on the ground never went out of control for the Pakistan Army.

The sprawling Akhnur ammunition dump was sporadically bombed, involving 21 sorties. Forward stocking of ammunition supplies in the field might have cushioned the blow for the short term, but had 23 Division operations developed towards Akhnur, the Indian forces would have likely felt the ordnance deficiencies, if the smoke billowing from igloos was anything to go by.

T-6Gs flew 12-odd sorties during four nights. General area strafing was done on suspected enemy positions near Akhnur, though jammed guns and night visibility problems often dogged these intrepid attempts. In one mission on the night of 4-5 December, Flt Lt Israr Ahmad got hit in the arm by ground fire, but he determinedly brought back the aircraft for a safe landing.

On 8 December, Flt Lt Fazal Elahi of No 26 Squadron was fatally hit by ground fire while performing a close support mission in Chamb area. Apparently, the AAA shell hit the bomb fuse, causing the F-86F to blow up in mid-air.

On 10 December, two F-86Fs of No 26 Squadron had a brief scrap with two Hunters of No 20 Squadron. Sqn Ldr Aslam Choudhry and Flt Lt Rahim Yousafzai had just arrived on an air support mission near Chamb, when they spotted two Hunters attacking ground targets. Aslam manoeuvred behind one and fired a lengthy burst, ripping the fuselage and drop tanks of the Hunter. In the meantime, the second Hunter flown by Sqn Ldr R N Bharadwaj slipped in and responded with a massive fusillade of four 30-mm cannon. The F-86 went down, with Aslam getting no chance to eject. The Hunter crippled by Aslam was able to limp back to Pathankot, with its pilot, Flt Lt Karumbaya, surviving a fiery fate by a cat’s whisker.

Also on 10 December, two F-86Es of No 18 Squadron manoeuvred to get behind two Su-7s while both formations were on air support missions in Chamb area. Wg Cdr Moin-ur-Rab and Flt Lt Taloot Mirza claimed a Su-7 each in gun attacks, though it later transpired that both aircraft made it back to their base after having taken some nasty hits.

The PAF flew a total of 146 sorties in Chamb Sector, which was 20% of PAF’s total tactical air support effort. 89 sorties were considered successful while 57 were rated as failures. Just as in Shakargarh Sector, on many occasions the pilots found no enemy activity on reaching the target area, resulting in wasted missions.

While interference by enemy fighters in the air was not of much consequence, IAF had expended a heavy effort in support of their ground forces around Chamb. Ruefully, PAF’s complete lack of low level radar cover and, fringe high level cover in the battle area, underscored the futility of flying blind CAPs to ward off IAF’s persistent attacks against 23 Division targets. Without effective air cover, ground offensive plans are as good as stalemated from the outset. This truism finally drove home as GHQ pragmatically decided to curtail the operation and, be contended with an improved defensive posture at Chamb.
 
Information on 1971 air war is hard to come by and is often inaccurate. It is a well known fact that Indians lost far more aircrafts as compared to Pakistan Air Force. Names of most of the Indian Indian pilots came from P. V. S. Jagan Mohan’s web site. I appologize to all those PAF pilots who certainly achieved air victory but their names are not listed below as no information was provided by Indians about their actual combat losses and there is no way for us to obtain names of Indian pilots involved. It is widely believed that Indians lost at least 100 aircrafts and several sources confirm this number.

Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force by Pushpinder Singh and Ravi Rikhye:

" The IAF suffered commensurately higher losses in the 1971 war because it mounted a very great number of attack sorties. To all causes and for all aircraft the losses totalled about 100, of which about 90 would have been combat types". (page 67)

General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the Autobiography)

" The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] ***** in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division."
 
As far as kills are concerned even the neutral link that i provided claims there were significant losses..they do not give any number..However i have yet to do my research on those kills...I am trying to hope you can appreciate that...

The point of this thread is to support your argument with concrete evidence. You can not support your argument with statements like "pakistan won air war" or India won air war. You have to prove it with different sources and list all the confirmed kills etc.

I have already listed the fate of all PAF F-104s. Out of 14, 6 have survived and 5-6 were lost due to accidents while 2-3 were lost to enemy fire.
All 10 of the Jordanian F-104 were delivered back to Jordan in 1972.
The reason why some sources claim Star fighters to have significant losses is because at the end of 1971 PAF was was left with 6 star fighters out of the original 14.

Mig-21 was soviet answer to F-104....F-104 was designed for Hit and Run combat as it was not maneuverable like Mig-21...This is what Indian's exploited...Care to explain the fighter that did well in 65(as claimed by Pak) was suddenly replaced by Mirage 5 right after the war where as per Pak it did well??? Does that make sense??? A fighter suddenly was not worth right with in 6 years time frame..can you explain??[/COLOR][/I]

Technically Mig-21 is way superior to Star fighter in 1vs1 combat. Star fighter was basically made for high altitude interceptor and Reconnaissance. Star Fighter proved to be quite lethal in 65 war with only 12 in number. They provided air support to PAF strike package that conducted raids in Indian territories.
Where as 12 of IAF Migs-21 were sitting ducks in 65 war.
After 65 and 71 war, US sanctioned Pakistan and thus spare parts thirsty F-104 could not be put to air all the time. Anyways, at the end of 71 war only 6 star fighters were left so they really had no use and on top of that US was not willing to supply spare parts.
Both F-104 and F-86 proved to be a deadly combo in 65 war.


Let me do more research and get back to you...As far as my research goes i never claimed that Jordian F-104's were shot down...All i am claiming is that

Serial numbers, pilot name, and pictures would be great to support your argument. Not asking for words only such as (5 Jordanian F-104 were shot down in 71 war).

- PAF did receive fighters from different countries including Jordian
Like i said. Only 10 star fighters and 5 F-5 were loaned to PAF but according to sir MuradK they rarely saw any combat and were used as "Reserves".
On the other hand. India received Soviet assistance in the combat.
4 Soviet reconnaissance air crafts assisted Indian air force attack Pakistan.

- PAF had better A2A missiles then IAF
So PAF had AIM-9X in 71 war and Indian Mig-21 were equipped with bow and arrows?
Aim-9B had a very low kill success rate and some sources put it to only 30% or even less.
- PAF had better communication system as compared to IAF
:lol: We had satellites? U-2 planes?
any links for your absurd claims.
- IAF had to keep reserves in case dragon join the party and thus the so called disparity between IAF and PAF was not as huge as claimed to be...
260 combat aircrafts vs even 500 out of total strength of 800+ still have alot of advantages.
- Last but not least F-104 did not do well against MIg-21 and as a result they were retired right after the war...[/QUOTE
Like i siad. F-104 was never a dog fighter.
Btw Mig-21 were a generation ahead of any PAF fighters in 71 war and should have dominated the sky but ironically more Mig-21s were lost then F-104s and did not inflict any significant damages on Pakistan side.
 
Ok guys i have some more neutral articles that claim F-104 indeed was outclassed by its demise the MIG-21...

By the 1971 conflict, however, the Starfighter was wholly outclassed by Indian MiG-21 "Fishbed" fighters.
Lockheed F-104 Starfighter - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft

again in the Indo-Pak War of 1971 - where a MiG-21 downed a Chengdu F - essentially the Chinese license-built MiG-19 "Farmer". In a bit of irony, the MiG-21's first kill came against another MiG product - a product the MiG-21 directly replaced. A trio of F-104 Starfighters were later downed by MiG-21 cannon fire in separate incidents (missile kills were still a mixed affair).

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (Fishbed) - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft

In this link it claims there were two F-104 planes shot one each on Dec 6 and Dec 12...(this is PAF official version)
Warbirds in Pakistan

On some more research i found this one

In the later Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, the F-104s were outfought and outgunned by the IAF's fighters and though Jordanian Starfighters were added to bolster the numbers, it did little to sway the air war in Pakistan's favour. Up to 8 PAF Starfighters were shot down by IAF MiG-21s [2] and even Pakistan admitted they didn't do so well, with up to seven losses and relatively few kills
.

F-104 Starfighter at AllExperts

Another interesting claim in the same link is

After the war the 12 PAF F-104s were grounded due to lack of spares resulting from the U.S. military embargo. They were replaced by French-made Dassault Mirage III fighters.

****************************************************************************************
Now i was wondering how come PAF grounded 12 F-104 when they had only 6 left...I did some calculation based on different links...Just to satisfy my Pakistani friends i concentrated on only on these links...

http://en.allexperts.com/e/f/f/f-104_starfighter.htm(To get the number of F-104's grounded by Pak after 1971 )
After the war the 12 PAF F-104s were grounded due to lack of spares resulting from the U.S. military embargo. They were replaced by French-made Dassault Mirage III fighters.

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2) data regarding F-104)
http://www.916-starfighter.de/F-104_PAF_web.htm(This link tells us PAF counts of F-104)

This link suggest PAF had 14 F-104 in total...6 were preserved and rest were either lost in accidents or combat...Now as we have agreed that Jordians gave 10 F-104 to pakistan which as per growler were later returned i would like to ask how many fighters were actually grounded.....

Now here are my calculations

14 F104 + 10 F104 = 24 F014
8 F104 - Claimed by Pak to be lost due to accidents or combat
24 F104 - 8 F104 = 16 F104
12 F104 Grounded after 71 war due to lack of spares(Arms Embargo by US)
16 F014 - 12 F104 = 4 F104(We do not know what happened to them)

2 F014 kills accepted by Pak and if i add 4 unknown F014 to this list then totals match...which is in synch with my link that suggest 6 claims...

"even Pakistan admitted they didn't do so well, with up to seven losses and relatively few kills"

P.S : We all know that it is impossible to match exact numbers because of very different claims by both the forces..However above research atleast gives us an idea that indeed F-104 did not do well against Mig-21 and thus reader would be more than inclined towards more kills of F-104 then what is claimed by PAF....
 
For the rest later but the narrative, proves the lack of knowledge by the author since the Mirage-3 was inducted into the PAF around 1968, long before any judgement could have been passed on the F-104s.
Later. :D

After the war the 12 PAF F-104s were grounded due to lack of spares resulting from the U.S. military embargo. They were replaced by French-made Dassault Mirage III fighters.
 
What a knee jerk reaction post! This same image of saber is duplicated by many indian sites and some refer it to as 65 war kill or 71 war. Btw the two pilots are average AF pilots where as IAF top gun pilots were zapped by PAF average pilots!

Well just to ask who are you to judge which pilot is avg and which pilot is good......so keep your post on facts..


onw thing more...in the earlier posts you said that Bharat Rakshak is a unreliable source but seems ur friend Areesh is totally relying on that...

also to mention most of our posts<links> which are by neutral countries are ignored by saying that the post is sourced by indian sources.....even global security.....so i feel you are totally in no mood for a healthy and genuine argument !!

moreover where Bharat rakshak is not saying about the cause of death...there your friends give the conclusion by themselves. so its my humble request that please post neutral sites<links>....not something like fricker,tail chopper which is full of Pakistani sources.......

Moreover i expect an answer from you about the "white spots" in the "air enthusiast" post...

also to check its credibility....just check why its office patent rights/copyrights were redrafted in 1974......?
 
The point of this thread is to support your argument with concrete evidence. You can not support your argument with statements like "pakistan won air war" or India won air war. You have to prove it with different sources and list all the confirmed kills etc.

I know that..in fact if you see whatever i am claiming i am trying to provide sources...I have tonnes of Indian sources which obviously i am not posting...I am trying to get as much western sources as possible...Care to explain what post or claim you find has not been backed by a source???


I have already listed the fate of all PAF F-104s. Out of 14, 6 have survived and 5-6 were lost due to accidents while 2-3 were lost to enemy fire.
All 10 of the Jordanian F-104 were delivered back to Jordan in 1972.
The reason why some sources claim Star fighters to have significant losses is because at the end of 1971 PAF was was left with 6 star fighters out of the original 14.
As promised i did my research and have shared my thoughts...Please share your views on it..


Technically Mig-21 is way superior to Star fighter in 1vs1 combat. Star fighter was basically made for high altitude interceptor and Reconnaissance. Star Fighter proved to be quite lethal in 65 war with only 12 in number. They provided air support to PAF strike package that conducted raids in Indian territories. Where as 12 of IAF Migs-21 were sitting ducks in 65 war.
Bolded part is contradictory to your claim on how Mig-21 was superior to F-104...I have not done my research on 65 so for now can talk only about 71 and as per my western sources Mig-21 was demise of F-104...

P.S : I have no military background and had to read a lot before posting...So please bear with me there....In fact i had no idea IAF had 12 Mig 21 during 65 war..I will do my research on it and get back to you..Fair???


After 65 and 71 war, US sanctioned Pakistan and thus spare parts thirsty F-104 could not be put to air all the time. Anyways, at the end of 71 war only 6 star fighters were left so they really had no use and on top of that US was not willing to supply spare parts.Both F-104 and F-86 proved to be a deadly combo in 65 war.

I did figure that out i.e. F-104 were phased out due to Arms Embargo...However Arms Embargo do not explain the whole story...Check out this link

Warbirds in Pakistan

Out of claimed 14 F104 6 fighters were lost way before 71 war...US arms embargo was applied right after 65 war...So in essense(as per PAF records) you kept 8 fighters in 71 war and lost only 2...So if PAF could have done with 8 fighters not sure what was so wrong with just 6 fighters later on...Make sense???


Serial numbers, pilot name, and pictures would be great to support your argument. Not asking for words only such as (5 Jordanian F-104 were shot down in 71 war).
Fair enough..However i am quoting western sources and that too from records of Lockheed...Why would the maker of the plane post something wrong about it?? Also it is difficult to get pictures of all this..Having said it i will try...

Like i said. Only 10 star fighters and 5 F-5 were loaned to PAF but according to sir MuradK they rarely saw any combat and were used as "Reserves".
On the other hand. India received Soviet assistance in the combat.
4 Soviet reconnaissance air crafts assisted Indian air force attack Pakistan.

As said i have utmost respect for Sir Muradk but please note that i am also quoting Military Experts while making claims...As far as Russian help is concerned i will take your words on it...Don't want to bombard myself with research...

So PAF had AIM-9X in 71 war and Indian Mig-21 were equipped with bow and arrows?
Aim-9B had a very low kill success rate and some sources put it to only 30&#37; or even less.

Did i claimed that??? The only fightet that had missiles fitterd in IAF inventory was MIG-21..It had K-13 which were scrapped after the war..it speaks a lot about its performance in 71 war..Doesn't it...whereas PAF had F-6, Sabres and F-104 fitted with Sidewinder....Do you see the difference???

:lol: We had satellites? U-2 planes? any links for your absurd claims.
So far you have shown patience..I would request to continue so...Yes i have link but it is indian...Let try to find out something western...However your radars, communication system were from US and you were US ally from a long time...India due to so called NAM was not close to anybody however relations with Russia was improving...So saying that you were better equipped should not be a big surprise...Also so many times i had seen people here claiming how western equipments(radars, avionics) are better then ruskies...were standards different at that time?? Anyways i do not believe in trash and rely on credible sources..so let me get back to research...

260 combat aircrafts vs even 500 out of total strength of 800+ still have alot of advantages.

And i never deny that...All i am saying is that the disparity was not as big as was made out to be...

a) China Factor
b) Better missile and more fighters fitted with them
c) Better communication system
d) Last but not the least combat fighter of around 650 made out to look 800+

Like i siad. F-104 was never a dog fighter. Btw Mig-21 were a generation ahead of any PAF fighters in 71 war and should have dominated the sky but ironically more Mig-21s were lost then F-104s and did not inflict any significant damages on Pakistan side.

and they did...It is just we are not agreeing to it....As far as more Migs were lost we have different positions on this and yet to conclude...So far lets first close on F-104 vs Mig 21 saga...What say???
 
Information on 1971 air war is hard to come by and is often inaccurate. It is a well known fact that Indians lost far more aircrafts as compared to Pakistan Air Force. Names of most of the Indian Indian pilots came from P. V. S. Jagan Mohan’s web site. I appologize to all those PAF pilots who certainly achieved air victory but their names are not listed below as no information was provided by Indians about their actual combat losses and there is no way for us to obtain names of Indian pilots involved. It is widely believed that Indians lost at least 100 aircrafts and several sources confirm this number.

Psyche of the Pakistan Air Force by Pushpinder Singh and Ravi Rikhye:

" The IAF suffered commensurately higher losses in the 1971 war because it mounted a very great number of attack sorties. To all causes and for all aircraft the losses totalled about 100, of which about 90 would have been combat types". (page 67)

General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the Autobiography)

" The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] ***** in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division."

Plz provide the link of the article...

also to an answer to your earlier post of chanb sector kindly help us with the role of airforce of Pakistan in Karachi port and longewala incident
 
For the rest later but the narrative, proves the lack of knowledge by the author since the Mirage-3 was inducted into the PAF around 1968, long before any judgement could have been passed on the F-104s.
Later. :D

"Interestingly the PAF was augmented during the war by No.9 squadron of the
Royal Jordanian Air force, flying F -104s and the delivery of between 25 and 70 F -86s
from Saudi Arabia. It is also believed that Libya sent a training detachment of F -5s,
perhaps to allow for rapid transfer of more of these aircraft had the war gone on for a
longer period.
Exact kill and loss figures remain controversial to this day, but it is clear that India
effectively won the air war in 1971, and that the Pakistan Air Force emerged with a
dented reputation and was blamed by the man on the street for 'letting down the nat ion'
World Air Power Journal, Air Power Analysis : Pakistan

The Mirage -IIIEP served with No.5 squadron at Saragodha during the 1971 war,
operating primarily in the air Defense role. Some 28 Mirages were supplied by France,
and 23 were shown after t he war, though six extra aircraft were said to have been
supplied by a Middle Eastern ally.
The PAF played a more limited role in the operations, and was reinforced by F -104s
from Jordan, Mirages from an unidentified Middle Eastern Ally (probably Libya) a nd by
F-86s from Saudi Arabia. Their arrival helped camouflage the extent of Pakistan's losses.
Libyan F -5s were reportedly deployed to Saragodha, perhaps as a potential training unit
to prepare Pakistani pilots for an influx of more F -5s from Saudi Arabia .
Chris Bishop, Indo-Pakistan wars 1965-71, p.386, "The Encyclopedia of 20th Century

Air Warfare", 2001 Aerospace publishing ltd, 2001 edition

dont say all the above quotes are from Indian sources.....
 
For the rest later but the narrative, proves the lack of knowledge by the author since the Mirage-3 was inducted into the PAF around 1968, long before any judgement could have been passed on the F-104s.
Later. :D
I am giving you benefit of doubt here...You might have hit the reply button in a haste..Author is not claiming that Mirage III were inducted after 71 war...What he is claiming is that F-104 were replaced with Mirage III due to arms embargo...See there is a huge difference between two....
 
I am giving you benefit of doubt here...You might have hit the reply button in a haste..Author is not claiming that Mirage III were inducted after 71 war...What he is claiming is that F-104 were replaced with Mirage III due to arms embargo...See there is a huge difference between two....

Actually the author is getting mixed up with his Apples and Oranges since the first batch of Mirge-3s equipped No.5 Squadron and remains so to this day, as noted in the following article, a follow up batch of 30 Mirage-5 was already on order to replace the older F-86s and went on to also re-equip No.9 (F-104) Squadron. It's worth noting that in September 1970, the US Government did offer seven F-104s but GOP declined as it was planing to phase out the Starfighter.
You will find the above information in these pages.
scan0002-5.jpg

scan0010-3.jpg
 
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Technically Mig-21 is way superior to Star fighter in 1vs1 combat. Star fighter was basically made for high altitude interceptor and Reconnaissance. Star Fighter proved to be quite lethal in 65 war with only 12 in number. They provided air support to PAF strike package that conducted raids in Indian territories. Where as 12 of IAF Migs-21 were sitting ducks in 65 war.

My response was :

Bolded part is contradictory to your claim on how Mig-21 was superior to F-104...I have not done my research on 65 so for now can talk only about 71 and as per my western sources Mig-21 was demise of F-104...

As promised above i did some research on Sitting Duck part and here are my findings...

In short : Mig-21 played very limited role in 1965 war...This was due to

- Mig 21 were inducted in IAF as late as 1964...
- Lack of training was another reason...

Also please note that IAF counterparts inducted F-104 in 1961....Kind of gives an inclination of how much was the disparity between both the forces in quality terms...As far as Quantity goes we were always ahead...but much of it is negated when your enemy has better planes in its inventory backed with sufficient time to get training....



One from the original batch of MiG-21F-13s (Type 74) supplied to IAF in 1963 was BC821. The aircraft suffered from problematic maintenance and the Indian crews received only very poor training in the USSR. The spirit of the "First Supersonic" Indian pilots were nevertheless high and they were swift to call their MiGs "Supersonic Sport-planes".
MiG-21 in Indian Service, Part 1

One from the original batch of MiG-21F-13s (Type 74) supplied to IAF in 1963 was BC821. The aircraft suffered from problematic maintenance and the Indian crews received only very poor training in the USSR. The spirit of the 'First Supersonic' Indian pilots were nevertheless high and they were swift to call their MiGs 'Supersonic Sport-planes'.
WINGS PALETTE - MiG MiG-21/J-7 Fishbed/Mongol - India

The Indian Air Force (IAF) was operating MiG-21s by the beginning of the September 1965 war with Pakistan, but the Fishbeds were too new to the IAF and did not see real combat. The IAF would make better use of them later.

In December 1971, India and Pakistan went to war again in a brief conflict that saw the emergence of the new nation of Bangladesh from East Pakistan. The IAF and PAF engaged each other energetically, with IAF MiG-21s proving more than a match for PAF Lockheed F-104 Starfighters, generally regarded as the MiG-21's closest counterpart among US fighters. However, Indian and Pakistani sources differ very greatly on the details of the air war.

[2.0] MiG-21 Trainers / Chinese J-7 / MiG-21 In Service



In 1961, the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted to purchase the MiG-21 over several other Western competitors because the Soviet Union offered India full transfer of technology and rights for local assembly. In 1964, the MiG-21 became the first supersonic fighter jet to enter service with the IAF. Due limited induction numbers and lack of pilot training, the IAF MiG-21 played limited role in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965

Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-21 (Trishul)
 
The result of this thread is quite clear that both sides never accept claims of eachother !
But the fact is that PAF got air superiority over IAF in 1965 nd 1971 until the only airbase of PAF on EASTERN FRONT is not destroyed !
 
The result of this thread is quite clear that both sides never accept claims of eachother !
But the fact is that PAF got air superiority over IAF in 1965 nd 1971 until the only airbase of PAF on EASTERN FRONT is not destroyed !

if no one gonna accept it so how can u show fact ???:cheesy::cheesy:
 
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