Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[Windjammer]

i m impressed with your way of pushing the false truth as the real facts.....tell me what do you say of pakistan,s claim of IAF having mig-19 and mig -23 in 1971....what do u want...we accept it also

I haven't read to the effect, however the IAF did claim a PAF Bristol Freighter destroyed in air strikes, nothing unusual there except the last one was phased out of the service in 1966.
On a sideline, claiming to have aircrafts in service is a little different than claiming to have them shot down like the above example.

 

[honour]

For a moment, let's assume that the PAF pilot didn't take 30 seconds and achieved his feat in 30 minutes, what counts is that he shot down five Hunters in a single sortie which is a far more important than the stop watch and for it's part, the PAF has provided the names, ranks and serial numbers of the victims, unless the GOI is refuting to accept them.

Three were Sqn Ldrs.--- O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat, among whom only the first mentioned survived. Also killed in the engagement were Flt Lt B. Guha and Flg Off J.S. Brar.

there is nothing called assumption in a war.....how can you tell all those you mentioned above died that day??? moreover tell something.....do library of congress is a credible link or not.............
Author James stain writes:"Gen. R.Ruth was told by a senior if you are ready to assume flicker is not right fully....what is the surety that he is even 10% right "<declassified 1997:note no. 951(c)para 144 ...will provide you the scanned pages>....


well any one----areesh,creeder,growler or windj...tell me did we had mig-23,19 in 1965/71????????????????

 

[deckingraj]

Since you want to live with the so called "possibility" to not to debunk Indian claim that the link by wind jammer is uncertain according to you(Infact it is not). Your link is also uncertain and based on your hypothesis we can easily refute it.

Several combat losses but how many??? It is uncertain.

I requested you to talk only about 1971 for now..Thanks for doing that...

However let me request again if you cannot contribute to the thread then please read and learn only....We are not talking about combat losses in this particular post....Here we are talking about did PAF received F-104 from Jordan or not??? Also the link is not Indian and just look at the of this claim ....By the way did you miss Significant Losses part ??? Let us first agree to the fact that PAF did receive F-104 part and then surely we will come back to SIGNIFICANT LOSSES part...Make sense???

 

[Frankenstein]

Another thread to start an "I got the bigger d**k" war !!

sure, If you guys have some history on it, share with us

 

[Areesh]

there is nothing called assumption in a war.....how can you tell all those you mentioned above died that day??? moreover tell something.....do library of congress is a credible link or not.............
Author James stain writes:"Gen. R.Ruth was told by a senior if you are ready to assume flicker is not right fully....what is the surety that he is even 10% right "<declassified 1997:note no. 951(c)para 144 ...will provide you the scanned pages>....


well any one----areesh,creeder,growler or windj...tell me did we had mig-23,19 in 1965/71????????????????

I just provided the pics along with date, Just open the link and watch it yourself dear. Don't worry it is your favorite Bharat Rakshak.

 

[Windjammer]

there is nothing called assumption in a war.....how can you tell all those you mentioned above died that day??? moreover tell something.....do library of congress is a credible link or not.............
Author James stain writes:"Gen. R.Ruth was told by a senior if you are ready to assume flicker is not right fully....what is the surety that he is even 10% right "<declassified 1997:note no. 951(c)para 144 ...will provide you the scanned pages>....


well any one----areesh,creeder,growler or windj...tell me did we had mig-23,19 in 1965/71????????????????

Stop trolling, what you want their death certificates. ??
The Indian MOD, only knows too well which pilot was missing/shot down on which day, if PAF had accumulated these kills over a period, why didn't your Government challenged the claims, instead it decided to remain silent. what does that prove. period.

 

[Areesh]

I requested you to talk only about 1971 for now..Thanks for doing that...

However let me request again if you cannot contribute to the thread then please read and learn only....We are not talking about combat losses in this particular post....Here we are talking about did PAF received F-104 from Jordan or not??? Also the link is not Indian and just look at the of this claim ....By the way did you miss Significant Losses part ??? Let us first agree to the fact that PAF did receive F-104 part and then surely we will come back to SIGNIFICANT LOSSES part...Make sense???

Lollzzz. I have made some posts along with links and till now no Indian has responed to my posts. All the links that I provided are from BR.

Anyways I am just using your logic that since WJ link is unclear(according to you) your link is uncertain itself. Yeah I just check the losses section. Even being uncertain the link is providing us with losses of PAF.

 

[deckingraj]

Here's another claim that F-104 was indeed provided by Jordan to Pakistan

After a lapse while the aftermath of the war was sorted out, the deliveries of ex-USAF Starfighters were completed, to be followed by a batch of F-104As from Taiwan. Apparently the Jordanians were instructed by Pakistani pilots, and in return for the courtesy, as mentioned above Jordanian Starfighters fought in the 1971 Indo-Pakistan War, suffering several losses at the hands of the Indian Air Force.

Another interesting note

Jordanian Starfighters were originally delivered in anti-corrosion overall light gray, to later acquire a dark green / olive / tan disruptive camouflage pattern on top with light gray underneath. Jordanian Starfighters were retired from operational service in the late 1970s, being replaced by French Dassault Mirage F1 fighters. Some of the old Starfighters ended up as airfield decoys, at least in some cases "dummied up" to resemble the Mirage F1.

[DR]Does this explain the one squadron of F-104 that we are talking about???

Same source is also talking about the plight of F-104 against Mig-21..

Pakistani F-104s fought in the 1971 war with India as well, assisted by Jordanian Starfighters. If the Indians had indeed been intimidated by the F-104 in the 1965 war, they weren't six years later. Even the Pakistanis admitted they didn't do so well, with up to seven losses and relatively few kills. Apparently the main deciding factor was that the F-104 was simply massively outnumbered.

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)


Now people can we move on to next item if we more or less agree on this???

 

[deckingraj]

Lollzzz. I have made some posts along with links and till now no Indian has responed to my posts. All the links that I provided are from BR.

Are you kidding me??? I have followed thie thread from post 1...i myself have put in many links and none is from BR...By the way growler and windjammer have used Pakistani sources then what's wrong in using BR???

Anyways I am just using your logic that since WJ link is unclear(according to you) your link is uncertain itself. Yeah I just check the losses section. Even being uncertain the link is providing us with losses of PAF.

Did you bother to read my link??? They are uncertain about the exact number of losses...What they are certain about is

- PAF did receive F-104 from Jordan
- PAF did suffered significant loses as far as F-104 is concerned...

which is contrary to WindJammer claim that PAF did not receive F-104 during the war....Not sure what part you are not getting...

 

[Windjammer]

Buddy, try and get the system, i have posted pictures of MIG-21, SU-7, Hunters and even the Canberras being shot down or destroyed on the ground, i have yet to see another image of a PAF aircraft other than the often repeated solitary F-86 being shot dowN.

Later.

 

[deckingraj]

Buddy, try and get the system, i have posted pictures of MIG-21, SU-7, Hunters and even the Canberras being shot down or destroyed on the ground, i have yet to see another image of a PAF aircraft other than the often repeated solitary F-86 being shot dowN.

Later.

Are you talking to me??? At-least quote my message so that there is no confusion....I am sure you know that when we debate we need to go step by step...As of now i have posted about 3 post rebuking your claims about F-104 saga...Lets get a consensus on those and move forward....As far as pictures and other things are concerned what does that prove??? If you are really interested then counter my previous posts where i have questioned step by step claims of Author viz-a-viz Pakistan's POV.....

A few pictures for you...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1965War/Photos-04.html
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/photo711.htm
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/photo712.htm
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/photo713.htm
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/photo651.htm
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/photo652.htm
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/photo654.htm

 

[Myth_buster_1]

[/COLOR]OK Guys i did find something interesting...Growler or WindJammer can you guys please deny/validate these claims...Please be civic since these are not my claims...
[DR] This suggests PAF had more Mirages before the war then what they showed in the parade.. Also it is quite known that they get external help from Middle Eastern Ally which makes reader believe that they surely had more Mirages than 28 and could show only 22. Does this mean there claim of no loss in combat was a farce???

ordersofbattle analyst is nothing but second hand source. meaning it is complied of many sources and mostly leads to Indians.
As for 28 Mirages claim, the source only leads to Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, and Pushpindar Singh.
According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (arms trade database) 24 Mirage-IIIEP/RP/DP versions were delivered to PAF NOT 28!
Another interesting fact from a 1969 Flight International Magazine
"French sources indicate that about 24 intercepter/strike aircraft are involved in the Pakistani order".

Many sources claim PAF operated Mirage-V in 71 war which were only ordered and were supposed to be delivered by the end of 71 but in fact due to the war the delivery were delayed due to sanctions and embargoes. Without the war PAF would have more Mirages in 71.

And btw, PAF lined up 22 Mirages and 1 was in the hanger while the 24th one crashed earlier on. so PAF did not lose a single Mirage-III in 71 war.

[DR] We all know that there was no Air Support for Longewal..Can someone please tell us the valid reasons??...Also if PAF was beating IAF AZZ then how come sorties were declining...

This subject has already been discussed and infact PAF ex officer from this forum sir MuradK gave elaborate analysis.
The reason why PAF did not support the army was because PAF with limited aircrafts were preoccupied with their own activities and demanded Pakistan army to wait for air support to arrive later on.

[DR] Since there were instance where it was proved beyond doubt that PAF was getting foreign help in term of Air-Craft how can we say that PAF was beating IAF A$$...Why would a winning formation need foreign help and that too in terms of Air-Craft??? Also if they did get more Aircraft then how come they were not able to reach the places as mentioned above???

10 Jordanian F-104 and 5 F-5 were delivered to pakistan as a reward for helping arabs in 1967 six day war.
PAF was out numbered 260 to nearly 800+.

Another article where it is claimed that IAF enjoying superiority over PAF was a farce...

the source of your article is. By Indranil Banerjie, Rupak Chattopadhyay and Air Marshal (Retired) C.V.Gole
Should i post Pakistani sources?

[DR] IAF and PAF disparity was not as big as it is made out to be...They definitely had better A2A missiles and communication system as compared to Indian counterparts...Even numerical superiority was not that great as it is made out to be...

Indians seem to take a huge pride in this feeling.
The sidewinder that pakistan was using had a very low 30% success rate. Where as IAF operated Mig-21 in huge numbers.

P.S : I am looking out for neutral sources..Would appreciate if some Indian members can help...in the mean time if Pakistani friends can counter it we would get to know their POV as well....

Ironically the sources you have posted leads to Indian sources.
Atleast try posting non indian sources that is not associated with Indian sources.

 

[Areesh]

Are you kidding me??? I have followed thie thread from post 1...i myself have put in many links and none is from BR...By the way growler and windjammer have used Pakistani sources then what's wrong in using BR???




Did you bother to read my link??? They are uncertain about the exact number of losses...What they are certain about is

- PAF did receive F-104 from Jordan
- PAF did suffered significant loses as far as F-104 is concerned...

which is contrary to WindJammer claim that PAF did not receive F-104 during the war....Not sure what part you are not getting...

Are you kidding me??? I have followed thie thread from post 1...i myself have put in many links and none is from BR...By the way growler and windjammer have used Pakistani sources then what's wrong in using BR???

Ah I hate this part. OK let me define my post to you. I never said that you used Indian source or BR. I said I used BR in all my posts and no Pakistani source yet. Got it!!! I was answering to your post to contribute to this thread with proofs.

Did you bother to read my link??? They are uncertain about the exact number of losses...What they are certain about is

- PAF did receive F-104 from Jordan
- PAF did suffered significant loses as far as F-104 is concerned...

So as our link did that. Our link also refuted Indian propaganda that PAF acquired F-104 from Jordan based on the conflicting Indian versions. But you refuted it without any sane reason claiming that it is unclear which it is not. So I am using your own logic to disapprove your link. Since they are uncertain about the kills of F-104 how can they make comments about PAF so called significant losses against IAF of F-104. And because of this contradiction and ambiguity we can say your link is unauthentic and unreliable.

You also didn't answer to 1965 war posts by Pakistani members and jumped to 1971 war.

 

[deckingraj]

Ironically the sources you have posted leads to Indian sources.
Atleast try posting non indian sources that is not associated with Indian sources.

I totally agree with you...In fact i simply said in my post that i am looking out for neutral sources...As a matter of fact i did... ... may be you were busy and catching up with the thread....However i have some counter questions...

And btw, PAF lined up 22 Mirages and 1 was in the hanger while the 24th one crashed earlier on. so PAF did not lose a single Mirage-III in 71 war.

I will do some more research on this...Even though my link suggested otherwise but because you pointed out that there were Indian sources involved so for now i will go with your assesment...Hope you will reciprocate in the same manner...

This subject has already been discussed and infact PAF ex officer from this forum sir MuradK gave elaborate analysis.
The reason why PAF did not support the army was because PAF with limited aircrafts were preoccupied with their own activities and demanded Pakistan army to wait for air support to arrive later on.

And i have utmost respect for Sir Muradk...However there are similar ranks in IAF which will give completely different picture...I am no doubt AF officials will have more information that me and you but they definitely won't have complete knowledge...I am just questioning certain aspects that do not make sense to me...Hope you can appreciate it and answer them...

Anyways coming back to discussion i can understans that PAF was busy in other activities and even though it is quite surprising that your Tank thrust in Longewal was being defeated which mind it was a very important operation and in line with your overall objective i.e. Win significant land in India to compensate for East Pakistan and have some sort of stalemate...yet how come there was no support when Karachi was attacked or when Indian tanks broke the protective cordon in the Zafarwal area??? And why were the sorties declining???

I can understand there might be co-ordination issues b/w Attacking PA and PAF as far as Longewal Operations are concerned but how come attack on your own land went without Air Support??? Don't you think it will give reader an impression that surely PAF was not ruling the sky???

10 Jordanian F-104 and 5 F-5 were delivered to pakistan as a reward for helping arabs in 1967 six day war. PAF was out numbered 260 to nearly 800+.

Thanks for saying this...Your buddy windjammer was hell bent on saying that PAF never got F-104 during 1971 war...As far as outnumbered is concerned you made fun when i said that there were sufficient reserves for the dragon...No one is declining that India had/have numerical edge over Pakistan but then it was not as big as it was made out to be...For example Pakistan used all 260(+ whatever she got as foreign help) whereas India did not have that luxuary....Also you failed to mention the better missiles and better communication system that PAF enjoyed over India...It checked the numerical superiority quite a bit...That is the only point i am trying to make and not taking pride in it...as ther is none... War are fought for objectives and not for numbers...If IAF did the job even with 10:1 ratio i do not care...same is true for PAF...

the source of your article is. By Indranil Banerjie, Rupak Chattopadhyay and Air Marshal (Retired) C.V.Gole
Should i post Pakistani sources? Ironically the sources you have posted leads to Indian sources.
Atleast try posting non indian sources that is not associated with Indian sources.

As said i did post neutral one's as well...

 

[Cent4]

well I have been reading comments from both sides and instead of studying for exam I was searching for the truth regarding both 65-71 wars.
few things i would like to disclose which I came across
1) PAF did not lose a single Mirage-III in 71 war
2) PAF had air superiority in 1965 war.


jordon or iran did not support pakistan in 1971 because they wanted to they did supports us because they were forced to. I am posting some links to prove that. these sources are from the notes of the then PRESIDENT of USA President Richard Nixon.

Details of U.S. support for military assistance to Pakistan from China, the Middle East, and even from the United States itself. Henry Kissinger's otherwise thorough account of the India-Pakistan crisis of 1971 in his memoir White House Years, omits the role the United States played in Pakistan's procurement of American fighter planes, perhaps because of the apparent illegality of shipping American military supplies to either India or Pakistan after the announced cutoff.(7) Of particular importance in this selection of documents is a series of transcripts of telephone conversations from December 4 and 16, 1971(Document 28) in which Kissinger and Nixon discuss, among other things, third-party transfers of fighter planes to Pakistan. Also of note is a cable from the Embassy in Iran dated December 29, 1971 (Document 44) which suggests that F-5 fighter aircraft, originally slated for Libya but which were being held in California, were flown to Pakistan via Iran. [23, 26, 28, 29, 33-45]


Document 28
White House, Telephone Conversations (Telcon), Dated December 4 and December 16, 1971, 11 pp. Includes Cover Sheet Dated January 19, 1972
Source: NPMP, NSC Files, Country Files: Middle East, Box 643.

These telcons show Nixon and Kissinger's knowledge of third party transfers of military supplies to Pakistan. Haig summarizes the Telcons to Kissinger by writing that the telcons, "confirm the President's knowledge of, approval for and, if you will, directive to provide aircraft to Iran and Jordan," in exchange for providing aircraft to Pakistan. The telcons also show that Kissinger and Nixon, following the advice of Barbara Walters, decide to put out a White House version of the facts involved with the South Asian crisis through John Scali. Nixon express his desire to, "get some PR out on the- - put the blame on India. It will also take some blame off us."

Document 44
United States Embassy (Tehran), Cable, F-5 Aircraft to Pakistan, Secret, December 29, 1971, 3 pp. Includes DOD cable.
Source: NPMP, NSC Files, Indo-Pak War, Box 575

Embassy Iran reports that three F-5A Fighter aircraft, reportedly from the United States, had been flown to Pakistan to assist in the war efforts against India. A Northrop official matches the aircraft to a group of planes originally slated for sale to Libya, but which were then diverted to USG control in California. This information suggests that not only did Washington look the other way when Jordan and Iran supplied U.S. planes to Pakistan, but that despite the embargo placed on Pakistan, it directly supplied Pakistan with fighter planes.