Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[Myth_buster_1]

SOURCE ? or is this just one of your multiplied claims like always ?

I will gradually post links here to support my claim. just wait and see.

 

[Areesh]

India lost approximately 200 aircraft in 65 and 71 war where as PAF lost 50.

Not only that they also lost the CM of Gujrat also.

There was evidently too little communication between the army, air force and the political leadership. The IAF, for example, was told to stay back in the hangars in the eastern sector even when the PAF launched withering attacks on Kalaikunda and Bagdogra. Even after the disastrous Chhamb engagement, the IAF was so casual as to leave a whole bunch of frontline aircraft exposed at Pathankot, within minutes of flying time from PAF bases, and the result was another disaster in a raid at dusk. The Pakistanis seemed to have such a free run they even shot down the Dakota carrying the then chief minister of Gujarat, Balwant Rai Mehta, deep inside our territory, at night.

An example of air superiority in 1965

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Its so easy to debunk Indian claims. Of course they are always exaggerated beyond reality. For example. India claimed of destroying 70+ PAF aircrafts but it was easily disapproved by PAF right after the war.

Source: Flight International 31 March 1966

the Pakistan Air Force flypast over Rawalpindi on March 23, Pakistan's
National Day. In the simultaneous parade five Chinese-built T.59 medium
tanks appeared. The Mig-19s led a flypast of 72 F-86s, ten F-104s, 19 B-57s
and 22 T-37s—almost the full complement of Pakistan airpower since the
conflict with India last September, when, reportedly, less than 20 aircraft were lost from the front-line strength of 136 (excluding transport and training aircraft).

 

[Windjammer]

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@Growler.............they claimed over a hundred PAF jets.
The claims were debunked after the war.....
ROFL at indian fan boys and phony war mongering gurus.

 

[deckingraj]

I am not a indian who would pathologically lie all the time to satisfy my ego. but you are the same guy who runs away from my posts and this thread will make you do just that once again.

I will gradually post links here to support my claim. just wait and see.

Would do a world of good to prove a point if you can restrain from using foolish words making your whole post looks foolish....This is your own thread and i am trying my best to support it...Can't you for once be more civil??? How about for once ignore people and keep on posting some credible sources the way you did????

 

[Myth_buster_1]

^ bro re post your images so we all can see without clicking on it.

 

[Windjammer]

The Indian MOD have always denied M.M. Alam's claim, but when a Western Aviation Historian provided them with back up proof with the names of IAF Hunter pilots shot down by M.M. Alam, the Indian MOD decided to remain quite. However,

Three were Sqn Ldrs.--- O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat, among whom only the first mentioned survived. Also killed in the engagement were Flt Lt B. Guha and Flg Off J.S. Brar.

 

[deckingraj]

@Growler.............they claimed over a hundred PAF jets.
The claims were debunked after the war.....
ROFL at indian fan boys and phony war mongering gurus.

Stay away from the discussion and help Growler and this thread by not helping....Flame bait will just ruin the thread and nothing conclusive will come out of it...Since you are that sure about false claims of IAF what are you worried about...let the Indians bury in their lies...

 

[deckingraj]

The Indian MOD have always denied M.M. Alam's claim, but when a Western Aviation Historian provided them with back up proof with the names of IAF Hunter pilots shot down by M.M. Alam, the Indian MOD decided to remain quite. However,

Three were Sqn Ldrs.--- O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat, among whom only the first mentioned survived. Also killed in the engagement were Flt Lt B. Guha and Flg Off J.S. Brar.

Boss....Second time same request...post it with source so that we can rebuke or accept it...I can search the same on google but this much should be expected from poster...Don't you think so???

 

[Windjammer]

Boss....Second time same request...post it with source so that we can rebuke or accept it...I can search the same on google but this much should be expected from poster...Don't you think so???

Air Enthusiastic, May 1972, Archives, John Fricker delivers findings to the Indian MOD.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Emperor Palpatine]

Another thread to start an "I got the bigger d**k" war !!

 

[Areesh]

According to IAF claim it destroyed only 14 aircrafts in air of PAF during 1965 war.

IAF claims

 

[deckingraj]

According IAF claim it destroyed only 14 aircrafts in air of PAF during 1965 war.

IAF claims

Areesh for now lets stick to 71...seems like its only me battling here , so let's stick to one topic at a time...

---------- Post added at 03:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

OK Guys i did find something interesting...Growler or WindJammer can you guys please deny/validate these claims...Please be civic since these are not my claims...

**********************************************************************************************************

In a major PR exercise following the 1971 war, the PAF lined up [11] no more than 22 Mirage-III fightersat on, in order to claim that none had been lost in combat, with one claimed to having been written off in a'training sortie' prior to the war and another undergoing repairs. However, according to Dassault and othersources [10] [11] [25], the PAF took delivery of no less than 28 Mirage-IIIs in and not 24 Mirages as claimedby the PAF. Furthermore, some sources [35] claim that additional Mirages were supplied during wartime byan unspecificied Middle Eastern ally, possibly Libya. The latter is confirmed to have transferred at least 3F-5E to the PAF, but these were claimed by Pakistan to have arrived only after the war ended, due toformalities concerning US clearance. Since the IAF only claimed 1-2 Mirage-IIIs confirmed as destroyedon the ground and 1 shot down by AAA, it is quite likely that the Mirage did suffer a number of air-to-airlosses at the hands of IAF fighters.

[DR] This suggests PAF had more Mirages before the war then what they showed in the parade.. Also it is quite known that they get external help from Middle Eastern Ally which makes reader believe that they surely had more Mirages than 28 and could show only 22. Does this mean there claim of no loss in combat was a farce???

Finally, it is confirmed [17] that the PAF's sortie rate slowly decreased day-by-day, as the conflict
proceeded. Both Offensive Counter Air (OCA) and Defensive Counter Air (DCA) sorties showed an
extreme fall from 4 Dec to 17 Dec, while Offensive Air Support sorties, showed an increase [17]. Overall,
the PAF sortie rate dropped from 240 sorties on 4 Dec 1971, to 150 sorties on 15 Dec and finally 215
sorties per day on 17 Dec. The PAF was nowhere to be seen on 5 Dec at Longewella, where just 4 Hunters
wiped out an entire Pakistani armored regiment, despite desperate pleas [19] for air support from the latter.The tank busting over Longewella lasted not a few hrs, but nearly two whole days, and despite this, thePAF never ever showed up. Neither was air support provided at all [31] when Karachi was attacked. On 16
Dec, when Indian tanks broke the protective cordon in the Zafarwal area, no PAF air support was provided
[18] despite requests. All of the mentioned, indicate the IAF's local air superiority plus a solid depletion ofavailable numbers in the PAF aircraft fleet, despite reports [7] [8] [35] foreign reinforcement.

[DR] We all know that there was no Air Support for Longewal..Can someone please tell us the valid reasons??...Also if PAF was beating IAF AZZ then how come sorties were declining...

The PAF extensively received foreign assistance and aircraft throughout the war, and these not only added
to its combat element but more importantly, helped camouflage the extent of its losses. The most famous
example would be the transfer of 11 RJAF F-104A Starfighters to Pakistan, on 13 December 1971. This
was not initially mentioned in Pakistani accounts, was first noted by IAF pilots when the F-104s they shot
down, bore a desert camouflage. Eventually, declassified US documents [7], confirmed the transfer, which,
was eventually acknowledged by Pakistan. Also transferred were at least 3 Libyan Northrop F-5Es, but
Pakistan maintains that these units arrived only on Dec 27, well after the Pakistani surrender. Besides thementioned examples, Pakistan does not acknowledge the transfer of any other aircraft although Indian
sources [1] as well as independent sources [34] [35] constantly mention the transfer of several additional F-86Sabres and possibly Mirage-IIIEPs [35] from Middle Eastern sources. Additional US Declassified
documents [8] further mention the supply of about another 2 squadrons of aircraft from Turkey and 12 more
F-104s after the war had concluded, all of these paid by the Shah of Iran under US orders. Given that
foreign aircraft were already photographed supplying equipment to Pakistan during the war and taking into
consideration the examples of the F-104A and F-5 transfers, the possibility of additional loaner aircraft
during wartime cannot be easily written off despite PAF denials. The PAF has always accused Bengali
defectors of giving away deployment details and information to the Indian side but such access to
information only makes Indian claims relating to the PAF, more accurate.

[DR] Since there were instance where it was proved beyond doubt that PAF was getting foreign help in term of Air-Craft how can we say that PAF was beating IAF A$$...Why would a winning formation need foreign help and that too in terms of Air-Craft??? Also if they did get more Aircraft then how come they were not able to reach the places as mentioned above???


http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/cimh/iaf/IAF_1971_kills_rev1.pdf


**********************************************************************************************************

Another article where it is claimed that IAF enjoying superiority over PAF was a farce...

The Pakistanis, according to the IISS (International Institute of Strategic Studies) Military Balance 1971, had 19 squadrons including two B-57B light bomber and one recce squadron. According to our studies, the Pakistanis had about 14 effective combat squadrons in the West excluding the B-57B bombers and recce aircraft. However, PAF squadrons tended to have more aircraft per squadron than the IAF. This was further bolstered by the acquisition of an unspecified number of F-86 Sabres, Mirage IIIs, Starfighters (from Jordan) and about 15 Chinese F-6s in the months prior to the war. These aircraft were not accounted for the IISS in its 1971 Military balance or in any other report. Also, the serviceability of PAF Sabres was much higher - meaning more aircraft could be fielded. The Indians had 16 aircraft per combat squadron but the effective availability during the war was 12 per squadron. Bomber and transporter squadron had 10 aircraft each of which about 6 to 8 were serviceable at any given time. Many PAF squadrons, in contrast, had as many as 25 aircraft. Thus, while the PAf was outnumbered in the West, at no point was it ever fighting against overwhelming odds.

More important, the PAF on the whole was far better equipped to fight a modern air war than the IAF. The Pakistanis, for instance, had very effective air-to-air missiles which the Indians lacked. American made Sidewinder missiles were fitted on Chinese-made F-6 aircraft, on Sabres and on Starfighters. These were accurate missiles and accounted for at least three kills by PAF fighters in air-to-air combat. The Indians had only their guns and cannons to rely on. The Soviet-made MiG-21 was the only aircraft in the IAF's inventory fitted with missiles. But the missiles - the infamous K-13 - were a poor copy of the American Sidewinders and were so useless that they were scrapped after the war.

The other major advantage, and a critical one, the Pakistanis had was their radar and communication system built by the Americans. In most parts, particularly Punjab, the PAF had a real time radar surveillance system, the ability to track low flying aircraft coming over Pakistan and the means to guide their aircraft right to intruding enemy aircraft. India had nothing in comparison. Instead of low level radar, the IAF had to rely on men posted near the borders. Every time a suspected enemy aircraft flew over, the observation post had to call in on their high frequency radio sets to warn the sector controllers. Even the medium and high level radar cover available to the IAF was poor with the result that each forward base had to earmark between one to two combat squadrons just for air defence. It was a primitive and wasteful system - and the Pakistanis knew it. The technologically inferior but numerically superior Indian Air Force could be tackled quite easily by a smaller but more modern force. This is what prompted the PAF to launch pre-emptive strikes against forward Indian air bases on 3 December 1971.
IAF Gnats in their Hardened Shelters

[DR] IAF and PAF disparity was not as big as it is made out to be...They definitely had better A2A missiles and communication system as compared to Indian counterparts...Even numerical superiority was not that great as it is made out to be...


1971 India-Pakistan War: The Air War - Case West

**********************************************************************************************************


P.S : I am looking out for neutral sources..Would appreciate if some Indian members can help...in the mean time if Pakistani friends can counter it we would get to know their POV as well....