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DG ISPR press conference

If I need to explain more than what I have written, then we won't bridge the understanding gap.
Only thing I'll say is that being part of a military whether as a soldier or as an officer is a multi-generational thing. These ought to be and generally in good militaries are a family profession. And yes you'll find your fair share of duffers even then, but you hope that the military will ween them out. But if anyone thinks that in an environment like Pakistan especially that we can widen the field and somehow think we won't degrade the caliber, we are wrong.

Niazi, Yayha were inspite of this system, not because of it. Now it is a free for all and the "sifarasee" culture at Boards is becoming front and center. Yes this did not happen overnight, and many are to blame for it. One avenue was developing an officer corp pool outside of the normal field. Things in the past, whether family, or Zaat, were an essential calculus. You can hate the English, but they were masters at figuring these things and kept copious notes on how they went about finding the best. Whether we like it or not, there was a method to their madness.
Having an army be comprised of a generational stock representing one particular region and ethnicity is a really great way to lay the grounds for eventually civil war. Take a look at east Pakistan. Whatever army such an approach produces is not worth it.

The only thing that should matter is any institution is merit. Not family or ethnicity.

I alluded to this conspicuous absence of Pukhtuns of late in the top brass when the opposite was true until the 90's and I was ostracized by the Army brats and Punjabi nationalists here. The last high profile Pukhtun core commander was TK and there hasn't been one pushing the COAS mantle for some time.

And I do agree, officer corps has to come from aristocratic/elite backgrounds who have the confidence and gravitas to lead men and handle high pressured multi-dimensional environment. Sadly this only applies to nation that weren't thoroughly colonized unlike us. The elites in our country are doubly beholden to colonial powers.
This is bullshit- what aristocratic family did MM Alam come from? What was his ethnicity?

If you have meritocracy, it will follow that the middle class will be over represented but this is a good thing.
 
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This is what happens when you recruit officers from all rungs of society. In our quest to make a "national" army, we forgot the cardinal rule for any military. Recruit your officer corp from the right stock or else (leaders always shape the standards). Pakistan's army experiment to become a national army has destroyed this institution. In the early days of the institution proportionally Pushtuns represented a far larger segment of the officer corp, whereas the proportional majority of the soldiers were from Punjab. As that proportion changed along with the "class" (you can hate me for saying this), the overall quality of the institution dropped. There was a strong line of families that fit the bill, of either good officers or good soldiers. Many Pashtuns (generally those that settled in Punjab), who could easily straddle the Pushtun-Punjabi line were the best crop to get the officer corp. Whereas the NCO came from certain areas of Punjab and KPK. That changed and with that the caliber. Combine that with consistent Martial Laws, Cantts in the middle of cities, the entire military industrial complex, along with the system of military and retired military patronage, and today Pakistan finds itself in a position that we have these two represent two of the more critical functions the Pak Army. We are royally "screwed". Allah is the only one protecting us. What a complete disaster.
Negative Rating for the above. Really! Are you serious.

I alluded to this conspicuous absence of Pukhtuns of late in the top brass when the opposite was true until the 90's and I was ostracized by the Army brats and Punjabi nationalists here. The last high profile Pukhtun core commander was TK and there hasn't been one pushing the COAS mantle for some time.

And I do agree, officer corps has to come from aristocratic/elite backgrounds who have the confidence and gravitas to lead men and handle high pressured multi-dimensional environment. Sadly this only applies to nation that weren't thoroughly colonized unlike us. The elites in our country are doubly beholden to colonial powers.
I guess welcome to the club. I got my first Negative rating in 10+ years. LOL!
 
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They are not officers of Pak army but personal servants of Nawaz shairf acting like dogs

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Are you serious.

So u r saying if a person father was a clerk then he should remain clerk and if someone father was a fighter his son should remain a fighter no matter how capable he is ...

Sorry but buhut hi giri hoi sooch hai aapki ... Still living in colonial age ... Angraiz chalay gay aap jaisy chor gay ...

Sorry but the marshal rave u r talking about r those who were actually traitor and foght for the invaders against the local population ... So cut this bull shit of marshal race who actually surrender to invaders and start working for them
@Jango @The Accountant
No I am not saying we are destined to our roles and are born in it. People should have the ability to always break out of those pre-defined roles if they have the fortitude, skills and merit.

Having said that I think we should not walk away from the importance generational occupation has to a person's potential. It should not be the only consideration. But it should be a consideration.
Look when I think about my love to the PK Army, and Pakistan, in large measure it comes from who I am and where I was born. But a portion of that love, that sense of responsibility comes from what we are taught in our household. We are told of our obligation to protect our country. We are taught of our obligation to always care for our institution. When we are told of stories of how one family member or the other fought, and/or died for the nation, or how they valiantly accomplished something, there is then a weight ancestral history that also comes into the equation. That intangible plays a lot into our minds. At least it does in mine.

It is that part of the multi-generational occupational that I am talking about. For anyone who thinks that has no bearing, they are too far removed from reality and the business of being a leader in the armed forces.

As far as giving me a negative rating for this - I would ask you instead permanently ban me please. Thanks.
 
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Some of us are having to eat a lot of humble pie and admitting we were wrong @VCheng

There is no shame in learning as we all do so at our own individual paces. Subah kaa bhoola shaam ko ghar aaye and all that you know. It is all good.

My fear now is that there is no game plan beyond forcing elections. If the aftermath is the same as now, what would really be gained? But that discussion can wait for later.
 
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The result of Collaboration of PA with PTI. The neutrality has come at a very later stage.
PTI was literally begging for some intervention. Asad Umar clearly said they wanted COAS to use his influence to force early elections. Meaning they wanted COAS to arm twist Shahbaz to break assemblies. Of course that is unconstitutional demand, DG ISI was right.

But about that Collaboration u are talking about...PTI's political gains since 2018 weren't decisive. They never achieved 2/3rds majority and were stonewalled everywhere. Army collaboration doesn't look like this....
 
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Negative Rating for the above. Really! Are you serious.


I guess welcome to the club. I got my first Negative rating in 10+ years. LOL!
Maybe the way you phrased it could have been better- I think what you were trying to say is that family pedigree- whether a person’s family was involved in a profession is a really good signal for whether that person will be good at it too.

I actually don’t disagree with this. The point is that this is a tertiary signal. What we should care about is overall meritocracy. As in, whether the officers are capable or not. If that so happens to be all those with family pedigree, then so be it. If that happens to be, all muhajirs then so be it too.

I disagree that the army should employ positive discrimination for groups that have been underrepresented in the past or currently. This approach never works. Rather there should be a really strict cutoff for meritocracy like that exists in the Air Force- probably our best branch.

I also think that meritocracy will actually mean over representation of the middle class, not those with family pedigree. Which is a good thing btw.

I went to an Ivy League university on a full ride (my parents would not be able to afford it anyways) - and broadly speaking there are two types of people. Those that are there because of family, generational wealth, etc. And those like me that were there because we had something to prove. I can tell you without a doubt that the former did not strictly deserve to be there.
 
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@Jango @The Accountant
No I am not saying we are destined to our roles and are born in it. People should have the ability to always break out of those pre-defined roles if they have the fortitude, skills and merit.

Having said that I think we should not walk away from the importance generational occupation has to a person's potential. It should not be the only consideration. But it should be a consideration.
Look when I think about my love to the PK Army, and Pakistan, in large measure it comes from who I am and where I was born. But a portion of that love, that sense of responsibility comes from what we are taught in our household. We are told of our obligation to protect our country. We are taught of our obligation to always care for our institution. When we are told of stories of how one family member or the other fought, and/or died for the nation, or how they valiantly accomplished something, there is then a weight ancestral history that also comes into the equation. That intangible plays a lot into our minds. At least it does in mine.

It is that part of the multi-generational occupational that I am talking about. For anyone who thinks that has no bearing, they are too far removed from reality and the business of being a leader in the armed forces.

As far as giving me a negative rating for this - I would ask you instead permanently ban me please. Thanks.
I know that family pedigree is often used as a criterion for admission but I think it’s a poor criteria.

The best academies in the world are in France where they have a simple test and a cutoff for if you make it. Access for everyone but if you can’t make the cutoff you’re not allowed to be in. As a result, France is over represented in theory fields (which don’t require state funding) like maths. Disproportionate number of fields medalists.

Much like the Pakistan Air Force. Let everyone compete and whoever makes the cut. No bearing on family or pedigree. If this means that you have to put a Bihari to fly your F-16s so be it. If that Bihari with no family connections or pedigree made the cutoff, he might even be better that those that got there because of being groomed to be in the role their whole lives. You get the likes of MM Alams like this.
 
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