Developing Ties Between Pak, Russia, China, Iran & the CARS

[Vinod2070]

listen mate im all for keeping in the neighbourhood. if india wants to dilute its relationship with america fine but without india doing that i dont think russia and china will play ball with india.

Russia and China are not so anti US as you imagine. In fact not even your GOP or the army is.

For each of them, the US relationship is the most important in the world.

As far as picking up what you dumped can you not see beyond india and pakistan, its not about india and pakistan.

I never said it is about India-Pakistan.

 

[Infinity]

If Russia and Pakistan block NATO supplies, they will be in the same situation in Afghanistan as USSR was 10 years ago..a virtual sucide...and i am sure the Russian still want a revenge!

Ya you are right ...............beware Pakistan..........which spoiled the game then with US

 

[Infinity]

listen mate im all for keeping in the neighbourhood. if india wants to dilute its relationship with america fine but without india doing that i dont think russia and china will play ball with india.

As far as picking up what you dumped can you not see beyond india and pakistan, its not about india and pakistan. In any event Russia is not the soviets.

Diplomatic Relations is not Sports...........It also speaks of Economics........If India is a market for Russian and we are consumers .......then they will have to Value our sentiments........we Indians don't believe in Brotherhood relations with any country......

 

[lem34]

Diplomatic Relations is not Sports...........It also speaks of Economics........If India is a market for Russian and we are consumers .......then they will have to Value our sentiments........we Indians don't believe in Brotherhood relations with any country......

yea we know that. but india is leaning far more towards the americans. In fact India is more in favour american silk road proposals the rival to this pipeline

indian govt (i wish indian internet warriors knew their govts preference) prefer this from an earlier article posted

Let's go TAPI!
A detour to AfPak is in order. Not even the deities who lord over the Hindu Kush know if the $7.6 billion (and counting), 1,735-kilometer TAPI (Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India) pipeline will ever be built.

India wants to work with americans on their dream

 

[lem34]

And on the bell just as we speak another thread starts:

Default China to finance Iran Pakistan gas pipeline

China to finance Iran Pakistan gas pipeline

The Pakistan government selected a consortium led by IBIC of China to arrange financing of the Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline project within 12 months in a move to finish the project as soon as possible and start importing Iranian gas supplies by December 2014.

The decision was taken in a meeting of the steering committee of the economic coordination committee led by Pakistani Petroleum Minister Asim Hussain and an inter-ministerial forum led by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani.

A senior government official said the steering committee of the ECC selected a consortium led by IBIC of China and comprising Habib Bank of Pakistan after completion of the bidding process to arrange financing through equity participation and underwriting in a period of 12 months.

The petroleum ministry, said the official, was also asked by the steering committee to take up increasing the gas quantities from Iranian pipeline from existing contract of 750 million cubic feet per day (MMCFD) to 1000 MMCFD. A reduction in gas price is also sought in the light of increased quantities.

These decisions would now be submitted to the ECC and subsequently to the cabinet over the next two weeks for formal approval and implementation.

Zardari insisted that the Iranian gas is needed to provide some relief from his country's shortages. These shortages have not only caused the failure of the gas companies providing to power plants, forcing them to turn to furnace oil, which has to be imported, but have also created severe difficulties for the domestic consumer.

He said Pakistan has sped up the pace of work on the Iran-Pakistan Gas Pipeline Project.

Highly-placed diplomatic sources told the Nation on Tuesday that the project, which was likely to be completed in 2014, might be completed one year ahead of its schedule, and the gas flow would start between June and December 2013.

Pakistan Petroleum Minister Asim Hussain said all physical surveys to lay 790-kilometre pipeline into Pakistan's soil have already been completed.

"China, ICPC and Habib Bank Limited have been chosen to act as financial advisers. China has also given assurances to financially help Pakistan construct this pipeline to complete this project on war footing," The Nation quoted Hussain, as saying.

"Our dependence on Iran-Pakistan pipeline was very high and there is no other substitute at present to meet the growing demand for energy," he added.

He said the Steering Committee would grant a formal clearance to the project before the tenders are floated to already short-listed contractors.

Fars News Agency :: Pakistan Expedites Work on Gas Deal with Iran


http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...iran-pakistan-gas-pipeline-2.html#post2422999

These are the chains that will bind pakistan iran china and russia

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I remember at least a 5-6 year old thread talking of the same: How Russia is about to ditch India and begin selling weapons to Pakistan.

Nothing of the sort has happened.

Even now, Russia has very different interests in Afghanistan than Pakistan. They hate Taliban and have been the principal backers of NA since decades.

They also have their own issues with China, not to mention the decades old strategic relations with India.

There is nothing compelling for them to go against USA (their most important relationship, as well as for China, India and even Pakistan) for this kind of "alliance".

You are viewing the issue as a 'zero-sum game'.

As I argued earlier, cooperation between the countries mentioned is not going to (at least in the short to medium term) not revolve around any sort of 'military/defence bloc' - security related cooperation will focus around combating drugs, smuggling terrorism and other crimes that threaten to destabilize the region.

And any cooperation on the above mentioned 'security issues' will drive from mutual interests in exploiting the regions natural resources and transit facilities, in order to bring about more economic growth, prosperity and stability. Cooperation against US policies will stem from the need to prevent any US actions that threaten stability in the region and therefore threaten mutual economic interests in the region.

The above mutual interests and cooperation among the regional countries do not mean that 'Russia will stop selling arms to India' or stop cooperating with India.

 

[Vinod2070]

You are viewing the issue as a 'zero-sum game'.

As I argued earlier, cooperation between the countries mentioned is not going to (at least in the short to medium term) not revolve around any sort of 'military/defence bloc' - security related cooperation will focus around combating drugs, smuggling terrorism and other crimes that threaten to destabilize the region.

And any cooperation on the above mentioned 'security issues' will drive from mutual interests in exploiting the regions natural resources and transit facilities, in order to bring about more economic growth, prosperity and stability. Cooperation against US policies will stem from the need to prevent any US actions that threaten stability in the region and therefore threaten mutual economic interests in the region.

The above mutual interests and cooperation among the regional countries do not mean that 'Russia will stop selling arms to India' or stop cooperating with India.

I am not.

Most comments here are about this being sme sort of an anti US/India alliance.

If it is really happening, indications at present are not conclusive.

 

[lem34]

I am not.

Most comments here are about this being sme sort of an anti US/India alliance.

If it is really happening, indications at present are not conclusive.

I will attempt to try clear the air. firstly two or three threads have been merged in this thread and each of the original threads concentrated on differnt prickly issues.

Agno is quite correct. The intentions of the potential partcipants is not agressive or against anyone. And on that I agree with him. However the reason security issues may come to the fore quicker is simply this. The americans favour an alternative which is not supported by anyone in the neighbourhood other than lukewarm support from india. Because of the massive economic benefits to american corporations if they do it it is not unreasonable and I think it likely that america will interfere as it has done in the past. the weak links which could be suseptible to attack or influence are iran and pakistan. Americans could launch a war against iran with the excuse that they cannot afford iran with nukes. I think pakistan is and has been destabalised by america deliberatly for this very purpose. Pakistan has no problem fighting terrorists with america at all. What pakistan has problems with is for example collusions by indian and americans in allowing several consulates in afghan, encourage indian investment etc in afghan. Oh and before you all say oh thats a deal between afghans and indians please lets be real, afghanistan has a puppet regime.

And here we come to vinods comments that it looks like an anti american/indian coalition- no that is not the intention, russia china iran and pakistan will be doing what is best for each of them America wants its corporations to come in and take a piece of the action, in this way america encourages India who will be given some crumbs off the table by playing balll with americans and also india hopes it will be protected against china/pakistan its percieved threat.

 

[lem34]

The wars within

By: Imran Malik | December 24, 2011 |



The massacre at Salalah caused a brutal and violent change in the strategic paradigms of the Afghan war. It consummated a major breakdown in the US-Pak ‘non-alliance’, kick-started a dormant Pakistani nationalism and also revealed a number of “wars within” that have had immense negative influences on the conduct and character of the Afghan war.

The Wars Within - One; US Departments of State, Defence and CIA:

The US State and Defence Departments and the CIA, the main operative organs of US policies abroad, have been consistently at daggers drawn. The State Department has ruefully seen its various diplomatic initiatives go down the tube because of the arrogance and incompetence of the Pentagon-CIA Combine - headed by Messrs Panetta and Petraeus - the same gentlemen who had played rather divisive roles in their earlier avatars, as the CIA Chief and US Forces Commander in Afghanistan! They were singularly responsible for scuttling the State Department sponsored Bonn Conference through an ill-timed attack at Salalah -sending the US-Pak relationship into a deathly tailspin and turning the conference into a virtual “Bonn of Contention!”

Why did the Pentagon-CIA Combine execute this diabolical sneak attack at Salalah at this particular time? Was it simple incompetence, was it to spite the State Department or was it complicit in an act of sheer disloyalty to President Barack Obama? So what is then the actual casus belli of this war within that is defeating President Obama’s policies in Afghanistan? Is it simply poor statecraft or is it a selfish desire to claim the honours and glories as the Afghan campaign draws towards its endgame? Or is the ubiquitous Military-Industry Complex at work again to prolong the war with the concomitant mutual benefits?!

The Wars Within - Two; Pakistan and Afghanistan:

Pakistan and Afghanistan should have been natural allies. However, after the defeat of the Taliban and the advent of the US/NATO/ISAF in Afghanistan, affairs between them soured very quickly with the transit trade and the Durand Line emerging as the most abiding issues. Further within Afghanistan, the minority pro-India Northern Alliance came unnaturally into power denying the majority pro-Pakistan Pakhtun population its democratic right of forming the government. This did not sit well with Pakistan, who has excellent relations and influence with the Pakhtuns. Therefore, the antagonism! Further, quite contrary to Karzai’s and USA’s wishes, Pakistan is adamant in its opposition to any formal Indian role or ascendancy or hegemony in Afghanistan, the APR or even in South Asia. Thus, the tussle for influence in the APR. As long as these bones of contention remain within Afghanistan and between it and Pakistan, peace will not return to this unfortunate land or region.

The Wars Within – Three; US-Pakistan-India:

The US is caught up in a strategic Catch-22 in the APR and SCAR. In both contexts, it has a strategic compulsion to give India a formal and major role in the post-2014 Afghanistan. In the first case, India is expected to assume the role of the “regional cop” - fill in the vacuum created by the withdrawal of Western forces and assert control of the region, secure common Indian, US and Western geoeconomic and geostrategic interests there and keep the extremist ideologues at bay. In the SCAR context, a major Indian presence in Afghanistan is essential to the USA’s strategy to contain China and to deny the SCO access to Afghan and Iranian mineral/fossil fuel deposits and the Arabian Sea. Thus, the US and India have common national interests in two overlapping and almost concentric Asian regions.
However, Pakistan will never countenance an India sitting in its backyard and threatening it with a two front war on a regular basis. As long as the US does not keep India out of Afghanistan, there will be no peace in the APR. Period.

Furthermore, until the historical issues of Kashmir and the rivers that flow out of it - Siachen, Sir Creek et al - are resolved, there can be no peace between India and Pakistan either. It is also imperative for the US to correct a strategic error - its blatant nuclear bias towards India in its self-serving nuclear policy for South Asia.

Finally, Pakistan will never be part of any US design that is patently anti-SCO, anti-China or anti-Iran in deed or intent! The US must understand that to attain its policy ends and objectives in the APR-SCAR, the road passes through Islamabad and not New Delhi.
So, will the US now move for yet another regime change in Pakistan? Prophetic?

The Wars Within - Four; The Regional Dimension:

The US vision for the Europe-APR-SCAR complex entails imposition of a US-controlled unified trade and security mechanism upon the APR-SCAR, which will be connected to Europe through the New Silk Road Project (NSRP). However, it is too futuristic in concept and may be affected by regional instability and competing interests of regional powers.

In the SCAR context, the Indo-US combine is trying to outflank both Russia and China, keeping them away from this mineral rich region. However, they seem to ignore the reality of the SCO - an emerging powerhouse in itself. Futuristically speaking, two poles are likely to emerge in the APR-SCAR - the Indo-US combine and the SCO comprising the CARs, Iran, Pakistan, China and Russia. And that portends for a very fascinating struggle for geostrategic dominance and geoeconomic exploitation in the heart of Asia. The first moves in this new great game may have already been made!

In order to succeed in the APR-SCAR, the US will have to factor in all these wars within, these strategic contradictions, these competing interests, resolve them and then proceed further. If it tries to march ahead alone, with only India in tow, its domination of the APR-SCAR and the fruition of the trade-security mechanism in Europe-APR-SCAR (including the NSRP) will remain a pipedream in perpetuity!

I love using colours lol

 

[Mo12]

why is india trying to outdo our best ally russia?

some people come out with weird stuff. Russia has loaned India a NUCLEAR submarine knowing that if ever used, it will be used on Pakistan.

Im sure Russia thinks highly of Pakistan

 

[Rafi]

why is india trying to outdo our best ally russia?

some people come out with weird stuff. Russia has loaned India a NUCLEAR submarine knowing that if ever used, it will be used on Pakistan.

Im sure Russia thinks highly of Pakistan

It is not zero-sum game, Russia also see's some benefit with strategic partnership with Pakistan, unlike Pakistan and india, Russia and Pakistan are not eternal enemies.

 

[Mo12]

It is not zero-sum game, Russia also see's some benefit with strategic partnership with Pakistan, unlike Pakistan and india, Russia and Pakistan are not eternal enemies.

Russia and India have one of the best friendships internationally

 

[Mo12]

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[true_indian]

It seems to me that Pakistanis are trying to drive a train through a peek hole. They are reading too much into Russian statements. Like they are part of some axis. That is simply silly.

 

[Rafi]

Russia and India have one of the best friendships internationally

I agree, but that will not stop Russia from exploring ties with Pakistan that are in it's strategic interest, like I said it is not a zero-sum game.